Want to clear up some confusion.

13 years ago

[sigh]

(WF has a habit of deleting posts that give any negative truth about IM)

An appropriate response to that comment would not be fit for display in this forum. As usual, it's a generalizing of "My specific post got deleted" to "They must delete everything on [really broad topic]."

A couple of separate notes...

First, re-posting deleted comments is not allowed. That's been the case here for years.

Second, the post wasn't deleted by the moderators. It was nuked by members who felt it crossed the line.

Paul

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

DM,

Members can do that??

In the general discussion areas, yes. They can. It doesn't work the same way in the sales sections, but the regular reporting functions work in every part of the forum.

The "member moderator" thing isn't just nice talk.

Edited to add:

Paul, there is a lot of mis-information in these threads that are getting nuked left right and center just cos certain members don't like it.

I can tell you, flat out, that the kind of filtering you're suggesting simply isn't happening. And if it did, the 'formal' mods would see it and correct the situation.

Paul
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FirstSocialApps

13 years ago

Paul as I have said. I wasnt even sure if the post got deleted. I searched for the post and didnt find it, but as I have said, many times the WF basic functions like search dont work (at least not for me cant speak for everyone), so I was not sure.

I can see a post like this being debatable and getting out of hand. However this is good pertinent information that people have a right to know.

[Re-posted material deleted AGAIN]

Honestly, and Im not saying this to be rude or to attack anyone, but Im really starting to question the ethics of the moderation that goes on here. People were confused and mislead about what JVZoo does. So I asked there support, then posted there response to clear it up, (I left out all personal info, even the support reps name) .. really what legitimate reason would there be to delete that except to try to perpetuate the misunderstanding that some people have?

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

However this is good pertinent information that people have a right to know.

Then perhaps next time you will leave out the abusive personal commentary, and stick to the features in question. Brian Kindsvater posted a similar thread the other day that was not removed, but he didn't start with, or move toward, the character attacks you included in your "clarification."

Paul

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Paul Myers 13 years ago

DM,

I do NOT see a delete post button?

Where is it?...

There isn't one. It's a function of the post reporting system.

Paul
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robestrong 13 years ago

I have to say, I've had very few brushes with the mods that enact the changes, but I've always found their judgments to be 100% correct, and they've never kept the truth back.
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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

Paul,

I do NOT see a delete post button?

Where is it?...

Use your head, DM. Do you really think that any ONE member, other than mods, can delete a post?

It takes a certain unknown number of reports by members to remove a post.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

"Formal mods" means, "People with access to some moderation functions not available to all the members, and who are explicitly charged with enforcing the rules."

Suzanne explained the "members deleting posts" thing quite accurately.

Paul

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jasonl70

13 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

I made not a single character attack.

well, as someone who actually sided with your concerns on the original post, this is not completely accurate. Your last post was very confrontational, even if not a character attack.

However, i have a feeling it was the OP that got flagged by a lot of people who in my opinion take the "Do not post complaining about specific people" rules to an extreme.

but my opinion does not really matter

anyways, debating why something got deleted is just asking for this to be deleted as well - there are numerous rules regarding 'deleted threads' type of posts

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FirstSocialApps

13 years ago

Originally Posted by jasonl70

Your last post was very confrontational, even if not a character attack.

Paul didnt say confrontational he said character attack. By the way Im not talking about a post that was deleted I was talking about my OP in this thread that was edited, the part they edited out was little more than a cut and paste of a JVZoo email. So does that mean JVZoo support was engaging in a character attack? It must mean that since they wrote (in there email response to my question) the bulk of what was edited out.

This thread was meant to give information that would be helpful when deciding what network to use. Nothing more. It was not meant to degrade into a debate about post deleting. However regarding that, I do invite Paul to PM me directly with the text that he found to be a 'character attack' , so I can be assured to understand. But he wont. He has all ready chosen to ignore direct questions I have asked of him.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

By the way Im not talking about a post that was deleted I was talking about my OP in this thread that was edited

I was talking about the original thread that got deleted.

Paul

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FirstSocialApps

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

I was talking about the original thread that got deleted.

That still does not say why you edited out my original post in this message. (assuming it was you) .. you still did not answer the question as to why you would a part of a post that does nothing but clear up a miss conception about a network many people on here use. I mean the part you removed was not even my words mostly it was JVZoo's.

[Do not re-post this again, please.]

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

I'm going to explain this one more time: The stuff that was deleted (repeatedly) in this thread was removed because it was a re-post of previously deleted comments. NOT because of the topic or the relevance of the material. That could have been a perfectly legitimate and useful discussion, had it been handled differently.

Paul

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FirstSocialApps

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

The stuff that was deleted (repeatedly) in this thread was removed because it was a re-post of previously deleted comments.
l

LOL .. so Im guessing that JVZoo's response to me was posted on a previous thread before they sent me the response. It was there email response that I cut and pasted that was deleted after all.Somehow it was on a previous thread and deleted before they sent it to me. Hmmm....

Come on man people are not as stupid as you seem to think they are. Its cool Im done with this thread. You have effectively killed it. Good job!

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

LOL .. so Im guessing that JVZoo's response to me was posted on a previous thread before they sent me the response.

Clearly not. I didn't know it was new, but since it was a continuation of the same discussion, I'd have deleted it anyway.

Before you go off on how bad the moderators are again, I want to remind you: The mods did not delete that original thread. The members did. We allowed a similar discussion here recently concerning another similar service, and it went on for a couple of days.

Paul

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FirstSocialApps

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Before you go off on how bad the moderators are again, I want to remind you: The mods did not delete that original thread. The members did. We allowed a similar discussion here recently concerning another similar service, and it went on for a couple of days.

First off Im not about to bad mouth the moderators Im sure moderating a forum of this size is quite a task. I have nothing but respect for them.

Second, perhaps Im not understanding this, but doesnt that little triangle button 'report' the post? So it still takes a moderator to actually take an action.

Third, what you allowed for 'another service' really has no bearing, the fact is your blocked any attempt to show what this service (JVZoo) is doing, but not making clear to there members. If you really were concerned with 'it being a continuation of a different thread' then you would have just deleted the thread, but you didnt do that, what you did was instead was you censored out only the parts that makes them look bad. Your actions speak much louder than your words Paul.

Its cool, I mean its your forum you can do what you want, but really man, at least have the fortitude to say 'its our forum and we'll block messages that are negative about companys were friendly with if we want' .. making up one fake excuse after another is just lame.

By the way, Im not the only member who thinks you censor any attempt to say anything negative against your 'friends' .. there are others, some of whom have sent me PM's since I started this thread. They just dont say anything because they think if they do they might get banned (there words not mine) .. would this really happen. I doubt it, but just the fact that people are thinking it shows what kind of impression you give to some people through your actions. Something to think about there Paul.

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Second, perhaps Im not understanding this, but doesnt that little triangle button 'report' the post? So it still takes a moderator to actually take an action.

Not always. As Suzanne explained, if enough members report a post, it goes away without moderator action. This doesn't happen often, so most people aren't aware of that possibility.

The fact that we still see the reports is one reason that capability doesn't get abused. If we saw any group using it as a means to get rid of posts they just didn't like, we'd resurrect the posts (assuming they were within the rules), and hand out some free vacation time to the malicious reporters.

Third, what you allowed for 'another service' really has no bearing, the fact is your blocked any attempt to show what this service (JVZoo) is doing, but not making clear to there members.

Let's recap.

Enough of the members decided the thread went over the line to get it deleted without moderator intervention. (I looked at the thread when it was first reported, and decided to leave it. It was right on the line.)

You re-started it, which should normally just get the thread deleted. I removed the part that was originally deleted, and explained a bit about what had happened. It was clear you didn't know the members had made the decision. (Reasonable, given the circumstances.)

It would not have mattered what the subject was. Once the thread was removed, you, personally, were not going to be allowed to start the topic up again. This is standard practice here, and is clearly explained in the stickies at the top of Main Discussion.

See points 5 and 6 in this 2-year old thread as one example of the rules having been posted long before this discussion.

I have already stated that I believe it could have been a useful and legitimate discussion, if it had been approached differently.

By the way, Im not the only member who thinks you censor any attempt to say anything negative against your 'friends'

It is undoubtedly true that you're not the only one who believes that. There will always be people who refuse to believe that disagreement doesn't hide some ulterior motive.

It would be an error to assume that your interpretation accurately mirrors my intent.

Paul

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sbucciarel

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by FirstSocialApps

Third, what you allowed for 'another service' really has no bearing, the fact is your blocked any attempt to show what this service (JVZoo) is doing, but not making clear to there members. If you really were concerned with 'it being a continuation of a different thread' then you would have just deleted the thread, but you didnt do that, what you did was instead was you censored out only the parts that makes them look bad. Your actions speak much louder than your words Paul.

The Warrior Plus thread was very similar with similar concerns. It went on for 5 pages and I didn't think it should have been given the air time as soon as numerous members got downright nasty to the W+ owner. But it was allowed to stick around longer.

These kinds of posts are actually reviews and probably should have posted in the reviews section to start with. One thing is clear, both of these affiliate platforms do similar things like building their lists with your customers, acting as an affiliate for your products, competing with your other affiliates, etc. No one has to use them if they don't like that. I've stopped using them for other reasons.

Paul already explained that a mod did not delete your thread. It was deleted by multiple reports by members. He has already told you and most know that you don't repost deleted threads or restart the topics that have been deleted. Simply, it's not allowed and has nothing to do with some covert attempt to suppress information about sites or people they are "friendly" too. It's just a simple matter of the rules.

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FirstSocialApps

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Then perhaps next time you will leave out the abusive personal commentary, and stick to the features in question. Brian Kindsvater posted a similar thread the other day that was not removed, but he didn't start with, or move toward, the character attacks you included in your "clarification."

Paul

I made not a single character attack. In fact my post started and ended with "*Im have no problem or issue with this practace, I just want to post the email response I got from JVZoo support so everyone can be clear*" (thats a paraphrase I dont remember the exact message) then I posted the email. I never made a singe judgement or opinion.

[And again]

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HKSEO Jonbones 13 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

Paul,

I do NOT see a delete post button?

Where is it?...

Red triangle with a black vertical line in it to the left of your post, under your avatar...this is the report post button.
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- Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  DM,
  
  certain's people's posts are an insult to anyone's intelligence
  
  That's probably true, but which people fit that category is a point that can be reasonably debated.
  
  I've seen some stunningly idiotic claims and comments here over the years. Stuff that made me want to drop the member from the forum on the spot, just on the principle that stupidity should be painful. But that isn't how the rules are set up. And it shouldn't be.
  
  There are topics we don't allow. They exist in every moderated forum. The argument isn't really whether it should be a free-for-all, but where you draw the lines.
  
  Names? There are a bunch. The most active ones, who don't restrict their activities to a sub-forum, are Allen, Thomas, Ken Strong, Kenneth Tang, and myself.
  
  The mods in sub-forums will be listed at the bottom of the index page for each section.
  
  Paul
  
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  Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  DM,
  
  I know about them.
  
  Well, it's not exactly a secret.
  
  I thought you were talking about actual members that's all.
  
  Since when are we not members? I PAID to join this site, as did most (if not all) of the 'formal' mods. We were all members before being entrusted with the access we have to the controls. We didn't quit being members.
  
  By "formal mods" I thought you mean't mods in an unnofficial capacity that can nuke threads on sight.
  
  Ummm... 'Formal' and 'unofficial' are kind of mutually exclusive, no?
  
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  Paul Myers 13 years ago
  
  DM,
  
  The only reason I'm saying this, is I've had a lot of posts blitzed.
  
  Most of which, as far as I've seen, fell into one of two categories that I explained to you via PM a week or so ago.
  
  General comment, not directed at anyone in particular:
  
  I would like to point out that this discussion is a classic example of why we don't allow re-posting of deleted threads, or usually explain why they were removed. It almost always degenerates into debates and argument that is unlikely to result in anything productive.
  
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HKSEO Jonbones

13 years ago

The 'member moderation' thing can be abused too easily, most forums I'm on that have had that feature have removed it shortly after it was implemented...WF on the otherhand...

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Paul Myers

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HKSEO Jonbones

The 'member moderation' thing can be abused too easily, most forums I'm on that have had that feature have removed it shortly after it was implemented...WF on the otherhand...

WF, on the other hand, has checks and balances in place, and active 'formal' mods who have the ability and experience to spot those abuses if they happened and stop them cold.

Paul

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butters

13 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

What does that mean?

And where is the delete post button that members have access too for other peoples posts?

Ok ignore that, I see you answered it above.

So members can just hit that button and get someones post frikking nuked?

Do you know what, I've known about that button and knew it was a report button, but do you know what?..I've never used it?..why, because I believe if your going to post on a forum, then free speech should prevail and if someone is going to come out with complete BS, Dangerous statements, then they should be able to stand up to whatever comes.

I'm not a frikking idiot. But certain's people's posts are an insult to anyone's intelligence, especially when I know for a fact otherwise they are talking sh**.

Posting on this forum is not a "right" it is a "privilege" if free speech was allowed without punishment then it would be chaos. Members have the ability to get a post deleted IF many members feel that it is worth deleting. If one person reports it then the mods would look at it and see what they think about it.

People are held to account everyday on this forum and people can ask the hard questions, I have seen this many times BUT there are two ways of going about it. One is in a sensible debating way and staying ONTOPIC and the other is insulting and going completely OFF-TOPIC. Usually the ontopic ones will stay and the off-topic ones will go. If you feel people are treating people like idiots, call them out, go for it, just be well mannered and polite when doing it.

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Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

^that's easier than Google to game.

No it's not. Why not? Because those well established members who quietly report threads and posts regularly do so not with any malicious intent but rather as a way to help the moderators here and to help make their lives easier.

All of the rules on this forum are quite clearly stated and they're there not just for the benefit of a few members but everyone. They're there to protect your interests as well as the interests of everyone else.

If you want to start trying to 'game' the system here it will soon become very obvious what antics or tactics you're playing at. Action not advised.

As for threads or posts getting deleted or locked down, it happens to everyone not just you. Thing is you don't see everyone else bleating on and on about it. Just deal with it and get on with your life. If you're taking this place too seriously, it is after all is said and done just a forum, maybe it's time for you to take a break from the place.

Just enjoy the forum, learn everything you can here, so what if a few threads or posts get deleted - what's the big deal?

I get plenty of my own threads locked down or other posts deleted. Do I mind? Nope. I just move on. It's not worth bothering about in the big scheme of things.

We're all supposed to be running businesses here not attending kindergarten.

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sbucciarel Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

^that's easier than Google to game.

Oh come on. Enough with conspiracy theories. People here who care about the forum quietly use the report button independently of others who also use the report button to report posts that are spam or a violation of rules. There's no secret "reporting" society.

Originally Posted by drunkenmonkey

Names please.

Seriously, they should be named then.

Not all of them want to be named and that is their choice to make, not yours. Being named a moderator could have negative repercussions and some choose to just quietly moderate.

EDIT: I see Paul named them so there you have it. Satisfied? Now what?
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jasonl70

13 years ago

While I agreed with your concern, your last post on that thread became a bit personal and confrontational with the jvzoo guy and I figured it was going to be deleted soon.

I was hoping it would just be locked - as I was wanting to take note of those 'warriors' who thought that these 'clever'/sneaky ways to get folks onto their list was OK.. they are warriors I personally wanted to avoid in the future

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Ken Strong

13 years ago

Well, I'm really glad all the confusion has been cleared up now.

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George Wright 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken Strong

Well, I'm really glad all the confusion has been cleared up now.

Now I'm really confused
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