Clickbank - The Tao of badass Sales Stopped???

161 replies
Hi, if anyone is promoting The Tao of Badass through Clickbank - do you mind letting me know if you're still receiving sales from this product.

I have been promoting this product for about a year.

My conversion rate for the first few months were around 1:18. I was earning a few dollars per hop. Now my conversion is 0:3000+ - earning a few cents per hop. Yes, my sales have went to hell. I send over 100 targeted traffic to them daily, but nothing for weeks.

95% of the traffic I used to send would visit the order form; however, now that my sales have stopped, I receive hops but NONE of the thousands of people I send visit the order form now.

I tried contacting the affiliate master, but I didn't receive a reply back. Of course Clickbank says the same thing over and over.

Do you think I should change the links to another affiliate program?
#badass #clickbank #sales #stopped #tao
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Jenkinson
    If you are only earning a few cents a pop now, i would think you need to change the affiliate product you are working with. I take it you are still getting good traffic?
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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      Hi Daniel, yes, I send over 100 people to the site daily. I went from earning dollars per hop to now less than 30 cents per hop.



      Originally Posted by Daniel Jenkinson View Post

      If you are only earning a few cents a pop now, i would think you need to change the affiliate product you are working with. I take it you are still getting good traffic?
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      • Profile picture of the author celente
        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

        Hi Daniel, yes, I send over 100 people to the site daily. I went from earning dollars per hop to now less than 30 cents per hop.
        100 people daily.

        OK, fair enough, but are they high quality ask yourself that.

        Or are they just coming from junky traffic, or low quality leads / low quality traffic.

        You will only have to send 20 or so people a day if you want high quality traffic, ready to buy.

        Time to get out the big guns and test some more. It sounds like your quality traffic dropped, or you are sending the same people to the offer again and again.
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        • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
          I'm not sure what your definition of high quality is.

          But what I can say is this: It's the same type of traffic I have always sent. I ONLY send keyword targeted traffic - the traffic I send is for "buy product name" "download product name" etc.

          I don't send paid traffic or unrelated traffic.

          Another thing - this is the same traffic that used to get me a sale off at least 18 visitors and 16 order impressions off 18 visitors, so I'm sure some people this has happened to know that it's not me, but something else.

          20 people per day is nice, but just because I send over 100 doesn't mean it's not quality traffic. I put in over 30 hours per week for a few months to rank for targeted, buying keywords. I didn't just put something out there and expect to earn... I worked extremely hard to scale up to earn more only to find the reverse has happened.

          The higher I rank in search engines for people searching for this product, the more traffic is sent and the less I earn.




          Originally Posted by celente View Post

          100 people daily.

          OK, fair enough, but are they high quality ask yourself that.

          Or are they just coming from junky traffic, or low quality leads / low quality traffic.

          You will only have to send 20 or so people a day if you want high quality traffic, ready to buy.

          Time to get out the big guns and test some more. It sounds like your quality traffic dropped, or you are sending the same people to the offer again and again.
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          • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
            Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

            That doesn't seem to fit the OP's case at all. Please explain how a vendor could do this for one specific affiliate.
            1. Why does it not fit the case ?

            2. By using a script a vendor could do this at random times for specific affiliates.

            .
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            • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
              Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

              1. Why does it not fit the case ?

              2. By using a script a vendor could do this at random times for specific affiliates.
              Can you please post an example of a script that does this or evidence that CB vendors have been able to do what you're saying only to specific affiliates?

              I was under the impression that as long as link is cloaked properly, the vendor has no way to interfere with the affiliate cookie process and payment/commission process, short of overriding it with their own affiliate cookie...

              So how would a vendor be able to track/sabotage an individual affiliate's cloaked links without affecting other affiliates?
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              • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
                I don't know about the script Harvey is speaking of or if he's speaking on the same thing I have witnessed, but I do know the vendor can redirect to other pages.

                TOB landing pages changes frequently throughout the day. I guess split testing, but it still changes. Their source code even mentions redirecting etc.


                Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

                Can you please post an example of a script that does this or evidence that it CB vendors have been able to do what you're saying only to specific affiliates?

                I was under the impression that as long as link is cloaked properly, the vendor has no way to interfere with the affiliate cookie process and payment/commission process, short of overriding it with their own affiliate cookie...

                So how would a vendor be able to track/sabotage an individual affiliate's cloaked links without affecting other affiliates?
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                • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
                  Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

                  I don't know about the script Harvey is speaking of or if he's speaking on the same thing I have witnessed, but I do know the vendor can redirect to other pages.

                  TOB landing pages changes frequently throughout the day. I guess split testing, but it still changes. Their source code even mentions redirecting etc.
                  I understand that, but I'm asking specifically how they might be able to do this to an individual affiliate and ONLY that affiliate.

                  As I said, TOB still sells better than ever for myself when I promote it and I know a few others who are all doing very well with it too, so I don't think TOB is the problem.

                  Harvey says vendors can use a script that only steals commissions from specific affiliates at random times, so I want to know how they supposedly accomplish that.

                  By the way, even if they were doing that the simple solution is to change your cloaked links out, since that's all they could be tracking. If you do that and sales start showing up again, it may have been the vendor. In that case, I probably would start promoting other offers.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
                    Oh, okay, my bad.

                    About how much traffic would you say you send them daily?

                    When I only sent a little over 10 people a day, I received sales faithfully. It wasn't until I started sending heavy traffic that my sales stopped.

                    I'm with you though, waiting on Harvey because I can't rest until I catch whatever is messing with my sales. Even if I still don't receive anymore sales and have to switch all my links to elsewhere, I'll be at peace knowing what happened.

                    Like you said, I know TOB is still selling very well. A lot of people promote it, but it's definitely selling. I know this just by looking at how my sales come in when my account isn't being played with.

                    Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

                    I understand that, but I'm asking specifically how they might be able to do this to an individual affiliate and ONLY that affiliate.

                    As I said, TOB still sells better than ever for myself when I promote it and I know a few others who are all doing very well with it too.

                    Harvey says vendors can use a script that only does this for specific affiliates at random times, so I want to know how they accomplish that.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
                      Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

                      Oh, okay, my bad.

                      About how much traffic would you say you send them daily?

                      When I only sent a little over 10 people a day, I received sales faithfully. It wasn't until I started sending heavy traffic that my sales stopped.

                      I'm with you though, waiting on Harvey because I can't rest until I catch whatever is messing with my sales. Even if I still don't receive anymore sales and have to switch all my links to elsewhere, I'll be at peace knowing what happened.

                      Like you said, I know TOB is still selling very well. A lot of people promote it, but it's definitely selling. I know this just by looking at when I do get sales.
                      I only promote TOB to one of my smaller double opt-in lists (6,000) every few months, but I always get a solid conversion rate on the main product and upsells. It's got a killer sales page and a great product behind it.

                      Like I said, I'm interested to hear more about the script and commission-stealing process Harvey is talking about because I haven't encountered anything like it, much less by a top-5 vendor on CB. Anything's possible I guess, I just can't see the TOB guys doing anything like that and jeopardizing their business by trying to steal commissions.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
                    And that's the messed up part. Every time I change my links, the tracking works fine for a few hours until someone finds out I changed it, then they do whatever it is they do again.

                    The only way for me to get my sales would be if I had an automatic link changer that would change my link after every visitor.

                    I do feel a brief relief, so thanks to all of you for your help!


                    Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

                    I understand that, but I'm asking specifically how they might be able to do this to an individual affiliate and ONLY that affiliate.

                    As I said, TOB still sells better than ever for myself when I promote it and I know a few others who are all doing very well with it too, so I don't think TOB is the problem.

                    Harvey says vendors can use a script that only steals commissions from specific affiliates at random times, so I want to know how they supposedly accomplish that.

                    By the way, even if they were doing that the simple solution is to change your cloaked links out, since that's all they could be tracking. If you do that and sales start showing up again, it may have been the vendor. In that case, I probably would start promoting other offers.
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              • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

                Can you please post an example of a script that does this or evidence that CB vendors have been able to do what you're saying only to specific affiliates?

                I was under the impression that as long as link is cloaked properly, the vendor has no way to interfere with the affiliate cookie process and payment/commission process, short of overriding it with their own affiliate cookie...

                So how would a vendor be able to track/sabotage an individual affiliate's cloaked links without affecting other affiliates?
                When I say 'script' I mean PHP code which replaces the standard order link. It can detect the original cookie and switch to another. Cloaking an affiliate link does not help.

                The only guaranteed point in the whole process of an affiliate link receiving credit for commission is when the affiliate id appears at the bottom of the order form.

                .
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                • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
                  Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                  When I say 'script' I mean PHP code which replaces the standard order link. It can detect the original cookie and switch to another. Cloaking an affiliate link does not help.

                  The only guaranteed point in the whole process of an affiliate link receiving credit for commission is when the affiliate id appears at the bottom of the order form.

                  .
                  Yes, but the OP is saying his affiliate link DOES appear at the bottom of the order form. That's why I said a redirect script on the vendor's side doesn't make sense.

                  I'm actually really curious about it now. In for updates if the OP ever figures out what's happening.
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  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
    Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

    Hi, if anyone is promoting The Tao of Badass through Clickbank - do you mind letting me know if you're still receiving sales from this product.

    I have been promoting this product for about a year.

    My conversion rate for the first few months were around 1:18. I was earning a few dollars per hop. Now my conversion is 0:3000+ - earning a few cents per hop. Yes, my sales have went to hell. I send over 100 targeted traffic to them daily, but nothing for weeks.

    95% of the traffic I used to send would visit the order form; however, now that my sales have stopped, I receive hops but NONE of the thousands of people I send visit the order form now.

    I tried contacting the affiliate master, but I didn't receive a reply back. Of course Clickbank says the same thing over and over.

    Do you think I should change the links to another affiliate program?
    0 for 3000? What is the traffic source? Is this search or social?
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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      Hello PM, yes, I have two CB accounts. I send traffic to both accounts for this product. Neither account is getting sales. My conversions used to be pretty darn good until the last 5 months, but this month is the worst.

      The first 7+ months I was converting pretty good. The more traffic, the more my sales went down. Every person I send over is keyword targeted; it's people searching for this particular product.

      Initially, I received a few sales per week. About 5 months ago, I started going about 2 weeks without a sale. It was bothersome, but I was still earning decent. This month, I only received two sales at the very beginning of the month. (1 sale in each account.) Nothing since.

      My sales nor order form impressions are counting.

      Thanks for the reply.

      Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

      0 for 3000? What is the traffic source? Is this search or social?
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      • Profile picture of the author phowell23
        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post


        My sales nor order form impressions are counting.
        What do you mean by this? Your stats for order form impressions is zero? It may be you exhausted your current traffic source. Is this PPC? Are you sending them directly to the sales page?
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        Stop wasting time. Just do it!

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        • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
          Hello Phowell, I don't send ppc. My websites get high search engine rankings for targeted keywords.

          What I meant by that was: My hops are counting (this is the people that click my affiliate link to get to the product I am promoting.)

          However, order form impressions are 0. (this is the number of people that click to the ordering page.)

          Pretty much everyone I used to send over would click to the ordering page.

          But what's even stranger to me is: On the days that sales and order form impressions count, they only count for the first visitors then stop.

          Example: The last sale I received was on May 3. I checked my account early that morning - my account showed I had 8 hops, 6 order form impressions and 1 sale. However, later that day, I had 104 hops, the same 6 order form impressions and only that 1 sale.

          So it's weird to me that I can get 1 sale and 6 order form impressions from 8 hops, but no more sales or order form impressions from the next 96 people that visited my affiliate link that day.

          This is not a one time thing. This has been happening for the last few months since my sales went downhill.

          Clickbank says that if your affiliate name shows up at the bottom of the page, then everything is okay. But I'm not so sure about that.

          A few months ago, something fishy happened: I seen another affiliate name then it quickly switched to my affiliate name.

          I guess I'll switch all my links to another affiliate program. Even if I don't get any sales. I'm so tired of sending free sales off all the hard work I put into this.

          Thanks!

          Originally Posted by phowell23 View Post

          What do you mean by this? Your stats for order form impressions is zero? It may be you exhausted your current traffic source. Is this PPC? Are you sending them directly to the sales page?
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

        Hello PM, yes, I have two CB accounts. I send traffic to both accounts for this product. Neither account is getting sales. My conversions used to be pretty darn good until the last 5 months, but this month is the worst.

        The first 7+ months I was converting pretty good. The more traffic, the more my sales went down. Every person I send over is keyword targeted; it's people searching for this particular product.

        Initially, I received a few sales per week. About 5 months ago, I started going about 2 weeks without a sale. It was bothersome, but I was still earning decent. This month, I only received two sales at the very beginning of the month. (1 sale in each account.) Nothing since.

        My sales nor order form impressions are counting.

        Thanks for the reply.
        If these are people searching for the exact product and not buying, the problem lies more with the sales page rather than your efforts.

        Let's face it, that program has been around for quite some time. Surely most people have seen the video page (even though he's taking it down in 24 hours) by now. It's also likely the program has been widely bootlegged by now etc. As an affiliate the best thing to do is swap links and try different vendors.

        I would suggest getting a PLR 'seduction' product and trying to convert them yourself. Maybe the same traffic would buy with a lower price point and a different product.
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        • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
          Well, thanks for the laugh @ "taking it down in 24 hours".

          It could be the product since it's been around for so long, but it's still weird how the sales come in. After contacting Clickbank, then I'll get a magical sale. Sale after 8 hops, but no more after 96 more people, etc.

          I know the vendor changes the sales page throughout the day as well. That might also have something to do with it.

          I will take your advice by switching to another product for a few days. if no sales, I'm done with CB.

          Thanks for the feedback and help!



          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          If these are people searching for the exact product and not buying, the problem lies more with the sales page rather than your efforts.

          Let's face it, that program has been around for quite some time. Surely most people have seen the video page (even though he's taking it down in 24 hours) by now. It's also likely the program has been widely bootlegged by now etc. As an affiliate the best thing to do is swap links and try different vendors.

          I would suggest getting a PLR 'seduction' product and trying to convert them yourself. Maybe the same traffic would buy with a lower price point and a different product.
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  • Profile picture of the author phowell23
    Just recently the past few weeks I'm getting some weird stats too on Clickbank where I'll get 80+ hops for a product and 1 sale or no sales and I normally average (at least for the past month) 12 hops per sale for this product and average 1 sale per day for this product. Maybe Clickbank's stats are screwy. It's been awhile since their analytics have been delayed for over a day. Sounds like they may need to reboot .
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by phowell23 View Post

      Just recently the past few weeks I'm getting some weird stats too on Clickbank where I'll get 80+ hops for a product and 1 sale or no sales and I normally average (at least for the past month) 12 hops per sale for this product and average 1 sale per day for this product. Maybe Clickbank's stats are screwy. It's been awhile since their analytics have been delayed for over a day. Sounds like they may need to reboot .
      I saw something for the first ever yesterday on there. A sale appeared in the account 12 hours after happening. Usually they go right in.
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  • Profile picture of the author tooAlive
    I've actually seen the Tao been advertised quite a bit lately.

    I can't imagine it'd be doing so bad if people keep sending that much traffic to it.
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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      Yeah, like I figured, this product isn't doing that bad.

      I decided to change my affiliate links to my mailing list, so I can collect the emails of the traffic I send over, then ask them to send me a screenshot of them buying the product.

      In two days, I received 13 screenshots of men paying, but no sales on those days. And these are just the men that actually sent it to me. (I'm sure many didn't bother sending it to me.)

      Yesterday, I then changed my links to go directly to the order form. Since doing all of this, I have over 400 hops, but 0 order form impressions.

      I've had more than enough of Clickbank not crediting my sales. The Tao claims you can earn recurring billing, too. Out of all the sales I've sent them, I've never received a recurring payment.

      I just checked one of my accounts for the traffic I've sent the last 14 days... it's much worst than I initially thought. No sales off over 6,000 hops. SIX THOUSAND hops, less than 100 order form impressions, ZERO sales. RIDICULOUS!

      Clickbank is way too fishy. Must be an affiliate manager. Looking for another company to promote!

      Originally Posted by tooAlive View Post

      I've actually seen the Tao been advertised quite a bit lately.

      I can't imagine it'd be doing so bad if people keep sending that much traffic to it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

        A few months ago, something fishy happened: I seen another affiliate name then it quickly switched to my affiliate name.
        How extraordinary - but why did you continue promoting the product after that?

        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

        Clickbank is way too fishy. Must be an affiliate manager.
        That certainly wouldn't be my conclusion (or even my suspicion), given all that you've said in this thread.
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        • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
          Hi Alexa, sorry about the confusion on my behalf.

          I haven't promoted this product in over 6 months. All the traffic I receive is from the first few months I promoted it. I did A LOT of promoting the first few months, targeting hundreds of keywords for this product, building natural links, creating unique content and reviews.

          The traffic I receive is from that. The only thing I do now is: when sales stop, I'll switch my affiliate links between both of my accounts, get a new promote link, hoping the sales will start back up.

          I only wish I would have had Camstudio recording when I tested my link back then, so I could have seen the affiliate name and placed the video on here for all to see. It happened extremely fast, then switched to my affiliate name.

          I initially thought my link might be hijacked, but this seems more like an inside thing. I don't really blame Clickbank, but I think it's the people they hire...

          I'm now taking the advice of John Chow. I'm tracking all the traffic I send over and building relationships with these men, so I can hopefully get more of them to send me their proof of payment.

          Edited to add:
          BTW, I just seen the last sentence you wrote. So who would you expect to be doing it if not an inside job? The vendor?

          I just can't understand who would do it that much. Take a few sales where it's unnoticeable - I can see. But do it for almost a month straight knowing the amount of traffic I send. Knowing I'll get suspicious that I went from receiving a few dollars per hop to less than 40 cents per hop. That's extreme greed; it's like whoever is doing it doesn't even care about getting caught!

          Thanks for your input!

          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          How extraordinary - but why did you continue promoting the product after that?



          That certainly wouldn't be my conclusion (or even my suspicion), given all that you've said in this thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
            Honestly, I'd check your links and run your sites for malware and affiliate scripts which could be hijacking your commissions. TOB is still selling very well for a lot of people, including myself and I know for fact that (at least as of March) it was still pulling in high-six figures/low-seven figures per month in total sales volume. I don't even actively promote it much but in the past few weeks, I've gotten 3 sales (two of them with upsells) from an email I sent over a month ago... crazy, but I guess some people open their emails way later.

            Obviously, there are big differences between only promoting through email (as I do) and organic/SEO traffic and paid traffic, which you do. Still, if there is a noticeable drop in sales between several months ago and now, you should have your sites and links checked.
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            • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
              Hi CHL, in order for someone to leave a comment on my blogs (which I assume would be how they add the malware), the comment has to be approved by me. I don't approve any comments.

              I know a hacker could also add something if they had access to my blog admin, but there's nothing extra added there.

              Google Webmaster Tools doesn't report anything, either. I scan my websites through Online Webpage Scanning for Malware Attacks | Web Inspector Online Scan weekly, but it also doesn't report anything.

              Affiliate hijacking scripts? I read on a few websites that when the link is hijacked, the hop wouldn't count at all. So, being that I am still seeing my hop counts - just not any sales or order form impressions - I could still be getting hijacked by someone other than an affiliate manager or TOB vendor?

              Would they be hijacking my affiliate name or the link itself?

              Thanks for the help!


              Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

              Honestly, I'd check your links and run your sites for malware and affiliate scripts which could be hijacking your commissions. TOB is still selling very well for a lot of people, including myself and I know for fact that (at least as of March) it was still pulling in high-six figures/low-seven figures per month in total sales volume. I don't even actively promote it much but in the past few weeks, I've gotten 3 sales (two of them with upsells) from an email I sent over a month ago... crazy, but I guess some people open their emails way later.

              Obviously, there are big differences between only promoting through email (as I do) and organic/SEO traffic and paid traffic, which you do. Still, if there is a noticeable drop in sales between several months ago and now, you should have your sites and links checked.
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              • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
                Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

                Hi CHL, in order for someone to leave a comment on my blogs (which I assume would be how they add the malware), the comment has to be approved by me. I don't approve any comments.

                I know a hacker could also add something if they had access to my blog admin, but there's nothing extra added there.

                Google Webmaster Tools doesn't report anything, either. I scan my websites through Online Webpage Scanning for Malware Attacks | Web Inspector Online Scan weekly, but it also doesn't report anything.

                Affiliate hijacking scripts? I read on a few websites that when the link is hijacked, the hop wouldn't count at all. So, being that I am still seeing my hop counts - just not any sales or order form impressions - I could still be getting hijacked by someone other than an affiliate manager or TOB vendor?

                Would they be hijacking my affiliate name or the link itself?

                Thanks for the help!
                I really doubt the vendor (or their affiliate program manager) is hijacking your commissions, especially seeing as how CB's payment system is specifically set up so that they can't possibly do it.

                The only way they could be cutting into your commission is if they reduced the commission percentage, but they absolutely cannot reduce it past 1%, so even if they were doing this, you would notice small sales (1% of $67 or whatever) and be able to track where they came from. So you would know they were cheating you.

                Honestly, I think you should re-check your links and if needed, replace them with fresh, encrypted links with tracking numbers. I've seen hackers replace an affiliate ID with their own that is only off by one number or letter, so be sure to check carefully. (For instance, if an affiliate id is "DAVID5657583", the hijacker might replace it with their own link that reads "DAV1D5657583". See the part I bolded? It can be that small of a difference.

                Either way, good luck. Don't hesitate to talk to the vendor either, I have before and they've gotten back to me quickly every time.
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                • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                  Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

                  I really doubt the vendor (or their affiliate program manager) is hijacking your commissions, especially seeing as how CB's payment system is specifically set up so that they can't possibly do it.
                  That's not strictly true. A vendor can alter the order link which would mean you get hops but no impressions.

                  Going back to this

                  Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

                  Yesterday, I then changed my links to go directly to the order form. Since doing all of this, I have over 400 hops, but 0 order form impressions.
                  If you link directly to the order form there will be no hops.

                  .
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                  • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
                    Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                    That's not strictly true. A vendor can alter the order link which would mean you get hops but no impressions.
                    That doesn't seem to fit the OP's case at all. Please explain how a vendor could do this for one specific affiliate.
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                  • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
                    When I used to link directly to the order form, what you said would happen: I would show order impressions but no hops.

                    Now, it's the opposite.

                    I changed my other account a few hours ago. On this account, the first 11 people that visited my link showed up as order impressions and I received one sale from this.

                    I just checked that account before posting this, now the opposite is happening again. It's only showing hops and no more order impressions. However, when I visit my link, it's still going straight to the order form.

                    It's like once someone finds out that I switched my links and received a sale, they do something to my account again. I doubt an outside hijacker could do this unless they have access to CB control panel or whatever.

                    I guess I'll give it one last try by promoting another CB product, sending the traffic straight to the order form. If these order impressions do not count either, then I'll know if it's something on the vendors end, CB end etc.

                    I know some people accounts work just find or don't get ripped so noticeably, so they can't possibly understand why some of us are so frustrated after being ripped so badly. But it hurts emotionally and financially to know you spent so much time and no matter what you do, someone keeps getting your sales.

                    But thanks for the clarification!

                    Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                    That's not strictly true. A vendor can alter the order link which would mean you get hops but no impressions.

                    Going back to this


                    If you link directly to the order form there will be no hops.

                    .
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                    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                      Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

                      I changed my other account a few hours ago. On this account, the first 11 people that visited my link showed up as order impressions and I received one sale from this. I just checked that account before posting this, now the opposite is happening again.

                      It's only showing hops and no more order impressions. However, when I visit my link, it's still going straight to the order form.
                      Are you looking at the correct time frame in the Analytics section?

                      .
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                      • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
                        Yes, Harvey, I'm looking at the correct time frame.

                        I also know that this particular sale came when I changed to go directly to the order form based on the commission that I received. The standard commission is $45.74. (sometimes it fluctuates: $45.62, $45.28 etc.) But it's still 45-something.

                        The link I changed it to is quite a bit cheaper and has a different item number. When I changed the link in this particular account, I received 11 order form impressions and 1 sale.

                        I left the link the same, hoping this would fix things after I seen the sale. But later, I still have 11 order impressions, over 60 hops but no more impressions.

                        It seems something happens once my traffic reaches their site.

                        Is there an easy way to check to see if my cookie is being deleted or if there's a script being ran on the traffic I send?

                        Thanks for all the help!

                        Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

                        Are you looking at the correct time frame in the Analytics section?

                        .
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                • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
                  Thanks, I understand what you mean about checking carefully. I actually overcheck. lol I don't glance, I stare, then recheck again, so it's definitely my affiliate name that shows up at the bottom.

                  But again, a few months back I did see another name quickly switch to my name. I almost caught who is doing it.

                  I can't really read coding, but I did see something in the java source code that said function eraseCookie.

                  It's also strange that when Clickbank does their maintenance, I always get a couple of sales/order impressions per day during that time, then after maintenance is over, it's back to zero.

                  I tried contacting TOB a couple of times, but I didn't receive a reply back.

                  Thanks again!


                  Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

                  I really doubt the vendor (or their affiliate program manager) is hijacking your commissions, especially seeing as how CB's payment system is specifically set up so that they can't possibly do it.

                  The only way they could be cutting into your commission is if they reduced the commission percentage, but they absolutely cannot reduce it past 1%, so even if they were doing this, you would notice small sales (1% of $67 or whatever) and be able to track where they came from. So you would know they were cheating you.

                  Honestly, I think you should re-check your links and if needed, replace them with fresh, encrypted links with tracking numbers. I've seen hackers replace an affiliate ID with their own that is only off by one number or letter, so be sure to check carefully. (For instance, if an affiliate id is "DAVID5657583", the hijacker might replace it with their own link that reads "DAV1D5657583". See the part I bolded? It can be that small of a difference.

                  Either way, good luck. Don't hesitate to talk to the vendor either, I have before and they've gotten back to me quickly every time.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    The product is probably over saturated with affiliates promoting it. Then when the prospect clicks your ad he realizes it's the same shit he's seen before. In the meantime decreasing your EPC statistics.
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  • Profile picture of the author JasonBennet
    Maybe it is time to simply just promote another product. There is a reason why it is important to constantly check the conversion of the products that we are promoting. Since your flow of traffic is constant and the quality is still the same, you might be able to get better results if you test out promoting different products. Good luck
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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      Thanks for the suggestion. I will promote other products and hope for the best.

      I hate there's no way to gain big commissions from these men though. These men only want TOB and don't wish to hear about anything else.

      Well, I guess I'll just collect their emails and add advertising to my website to earn a little profit off their traffic. Beats earning nothing I guess.

      Thanks!

      Originally Posted by JasonBennet View Post

      Maybe it is time to simply just promote another product. There is a reason why it is important to constantly check the conversion of the products that we are promoting. Since your flow of traffic is constant and the quality is still the same, you might be able to get better results if you test out promoting different products. Good luck
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  • Profile picture of the author THK
    It may not be a big deal, but the people searching for "download product name" are probably looking to download the product for free and they are not likely to buy.

    While looking for that free download link they are probably clicking on that order button as well, which can add to your large number of hops and order form impressions .

    It does not explain why no one is buying at all, but I just wanted to point it out.

    Some food for thought.

    Tanvir
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    • Profile picture of the author NewWarrio2
      I am currently promoting this product too on facebook ads. Ive received many clicks but no sale. That tells me a lot of people are on the fence and the sales page does not do a good job of nudging them over the edge. It has many times before, true, but it could do a better job. That is why I write a review for it then direct them to buy it.
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      • Profile picture of the author THK
        Originally Posted by NewWarrio2 View Post

        I am currently promoting this product too on facebook ads. Ive received many clicks but no sale. That tells me a lot of people are on the fence and the sales page does not do a good job of nudging them over the edge. It has many times before, true, but it could do a better job. That is why I write a review for it then direct them to buy it.
        If you are sending those people from FB to your landing page or directly to the sales page, your conversion is going to be poor.

        People finding a site through search engine are more likely to buy.

        Tanvir
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    maybe your traffic is opting into the their mailing list and converting from there. leaving your affiliate link in limbo
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by Rbtmarshall View Post

      maybe your traffic is opting into the their mailing list and converting from there. leaving your affiliate link in limbo
      TOB's page doesn't do this. If you add your email and click the "Click To Order Now" button but then don't go through with the sale, they do not send you anything... there's no email follow-up sequence at all UNLESS you buy right there and then.

      If TOB did have a sales page opt-in leading to a follow-up email sequence of their own, I would never promote for them.

      Originally Posted by THK View Post

      If you are sending those people from FB to your landing page or directly to the sales page, your conversion is going to be poor.

      People finding a site through search engine are more likely to buy.

      Tanvir
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  • Profile picture of the author wisdomoto
    Hey OP

    I also promote this product on my smaller dating blog

    I'm considering switching it though, I have an EPC of $0.24 based on 374 hops from search and email traffic. :-/

    One thing I don't like is that they put an email capture on their sales page. It wasn't there before. Personally I tend to go for CB products without an email capture on their sales page.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
      Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

      Yes, but the OP is saying his affiliate link DOES appear at the bottom of the order form.
      Yes - at the time he checked it maybe.
      But this does not rule out the fact that a vendor can alter it at random times.


      .
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  • Profile picture of the author kakah
    I have noticed same stuffs on my sites for the past 4 weeks.

    I have promoted TOB heavily in the past 8 months receiving good sales in the process. But in the last 4 weeks, sales game to grinding stop.

    I have scratched my heads thinking what went wrong.

    My traffic remains the same and and they are all targeted.I use on product name related keywords..

    I am begiining to suspect clickbank here
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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      I honestly thought it was Clickbank, too. But now...


      Originally Posted by kakah View Post

      I have noticed same stuffs on my sites for the past 4 weeks.

      I have promoted TOB heavily in the past 8 months receiving good sales in the process. But in the last 4 weeks, sales game to grinding stop.

      I have scratched my heads thinking what went wrong.

      My traffic remains the same and and they are all targeted.I use on product name related keywords..

      I am begiining to suspect clickbank here
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Mensah
        try switch the product and then test to see if that improves things then you know for sure whether its the product or not. Could be a form of ad blindness where people are used to seeing that salespage.
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  • Profile picture of the author thedanbrown
    Ya I would say it has more to do with the sales page conversion then your efforts. I would recommend tightening up your funnel so if I was you I would pre-frame the traffic a little differently and offer them some sort of bonus if they buy. This should bump your conversions.
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  • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
    Thanks everyone!

    I feel comfortable testing out other CB products now that I see that it wasn't CB ripping me off. I just hate I invested so much time into promoting this. Hundreds to thousands of sales I have lost... and others have lost.

    Here's what I found about a hour ago while testing my links after creating a new computer user account - The Tao landing page has a popup to collect payment info. when clicking the order button.

    This is not a Clickbank payment which explains why my account was only showing hops, but no order impressions. I knew something was preventing the men from going past the landing page; I assumed they were being redirected once they landed on the page. But it's the popup that prevented them from ordering through my link.

    (I tested my link over 20 times to make sure my eyes weren't tripping. Refreshed, changed my IP address, changed to multiple computer users etc. and rechecked. I attached a screenshot of the popup. If anyone cares, I can also upload the video footage to a Youtube channel so you can see what happened.)

    Here's some links I found in the source code when this happened. (I'm not a programmer, I didn't look through all the coding, but still...)

    https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/indexopt.php

    https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/utils.../creditcard.js

    https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/speci...upcheckout.css


    https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/js/creditcard.js



    Thanks to everyone who left a response!
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

      Thanks everyone!

      I feel comfortable testing out other CB products now that I see that it wasn't CB ripping me off. I just hate I invested so much time into promoting this. Hundreds to thousands of sales I have lost... and others have lost.

      Here's what I found about a hour ago while testing my links after creating a new computer user account - The Tao landing page has a popup to collect payment info. when clicking the order button.

      This is not a Clickbank payment which explains why my account was only showing hops, but no order impressions. I knew something was preventing the men from going past the landing page; I assumed they were being redirected once they landed on the page. But it's the popup that prevented them from ordering through my link.

      (I tested my link over 20 times to make sure my eyes weren't tripping. Refreshed, changed my IP address, changed to multiple computer users etc. and rechecked. I attached a screenshot of the popup. If anyone cares, I can also upload the video footage to a Youtube channel so you can see what happened.)

      Here's some links I found in the source code when this happened. (I'm not a programmer, I didn't look through all the coding, but still...)

      https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/indexopt.php

      https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/utils.../creditcard.js

      https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/speci...upcheckout.css


      https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/js/creditcard.js



      Thanks to everyone who left a response!
      That is messed up. They're using their own shopping cart on the website? WTH!
      Signature
      Free Special Report on Mindset - Level Up with Positive Thinking
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      • Profile picture of the author Yogini
        I remember reading in 2009 a number of people wrote that when they stopped getting sales, they'd create a new clickbank id that had a new hop link and their sales would resume. However, the same cycle would occur. This was one of the thread on it:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...-changing.html

        Debbie
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        • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
          Targeted traffic, over 6,000 hops but sales stopped completely until I changed the product number then a sale after only 11 hops but then they changed it on me again to stop my sales and order impressions, I found the popup which explains why my order impressions and sales weren't counting, but Pellicer and companies are still more trustworthy than affiliates.

          I guess top companies/products will always have those who stand by them no matter how much they rip hard workers off.

          It's cool. Thanks to all who see myself and others were ripped off badly and knows what it feels like to lose hundreds of sales and so much time. Special thanks to CHL for sending me the other product to promote instead!
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      • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
        Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

        That is messed up. They're using their own shopping cart on the website? WTH!
        Yes - however I just wonder if there is a mistake in the code and it was intended that this cart is only used for vendor purchases. If you view the source code there are references to the affiliate id.

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
          Originally Posted by Harvey Segal View Post

          Yes - however I just wonder if there is a mistake in the code and it was intended that this cart is only used for vendor purchases. If you view the source code there are references to the affiliate id.

          .
          I trust Pellicer and his crew more than I trust this thread TBH
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      • Profile picture of the author rodsav
        Sounds like the market is saturated with the product you are promoting. If you sales have dropped then I would consider promoting another product.
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        • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
          Originally Posted by rodsav View Post

          Sounds like the market is saturated with the product you are promoting. If you sales have dropped then I would consider promoting another product.
          Nope, sounds like someone didn't read the previous few posts.

          RoD
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          - Jim Rohn
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

      Thanks everyone!

      I feel comfortable testing out other CB products now that I see that it wasn't CB ripping me off. I just hate I invested so much time into promoting this. Hundreds to thousands of sales I have lost... and others have lost.

      Here's what I found about a hour ago while testing my links after creating a new computer user account - The Tao landing page has a popup to collect payment info. when clicking the order button.

      This is not a Clickbank payment which explains why my account was only showing hops, but no order impressions. I knew something was preventing the men from going past the landing page; I assumed they were being redirected once they landed on the page. But it's the popup that prevented them from ordering through my link.

      (I tested my link over 20 times to make sure my eyes weren't tripping. Refreshed, changed my IP address, changed to multiple computer users etc. and rechecked. I attached a screenshot of the popup. If anyone cares, I can also upload the video footage to a Youtube channel so you can see what happened.)

      Here's some links I found in the source code when this happened. (I'm not a programmer, I didn't look through all the coding, but still...)

      https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/indexopt.php

      https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/utils.../creditcard.js

      https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/speci...upcheckout.css


      https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/js/creditcard.js

      Thanks to everyone who left a response!
      Wow. That is insane, I can't imagine why they would do something so shady that jeopardizes their rep with affiliates... I'm gonna email my CB rep about this, I'd like to know if they're aware.

      Also, OP: Since we don't compete with our traffic sources I just PM'd you about a dating/seduction product on CB that's converting a lot better than Tao right now. Consider it a "Thanks" for discovering this issue.
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      • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
        Thanks a lot CHL!

        Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

        Wow. That is insane, I can't imagine why they would do something so shady that jeopardizes their rep with affiliates... I'm gonna email my CB rep about this, I'd like to know if they're aware.

        Also, OP: Since we don't compete with our traffic sources I just PM'd you about a dating/seduction product on CB that's converting a lot better than Tao right now. Consider it a "Thanks" for discovering this issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author Joe Ray
      Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

      Thanks everyone!

      I feel comfortable testing out other CB products now that I see that it wasn't CB ripping me off. I just hate I invested so much time into promoting this. Hundreds to thousands of sales I have lost... and others have lost.

      Here's what I found about a hour ago while testing my links after creating a new computer user account - The Tao landing page has a popup to collect payment info. when clicking the order button.

      This is not a Clickbank payment which explains why my account was only showing hops, but no order impressions. I knew something was preventing the men from going past the landing page; I assumed they were being redirected once they landed on the page. But it's the popup that prevented them from ordering through my link.

      (I tested my link over 20 times to make sure my eyes weren't tripping. Refreshed, changed my IP address, changed to multiple computer users etc. and rechecked. I attached a screenshot of the popup. If anyone cares, I can also upload the video footage to a Youtube channel so you can see what happened.)

      Here's some links I found in the source code when this happened. (I'm not a programmer, I didn't look through all the coding, but still...)

      https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/indexopt.php

      https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/utils.../creditcard.js

      https://www.thetaoofbadass.com/speci...upcheckout.css


      https://thetaoofbadass.com/cart/js/creditcard.js



      Thanks to everyone who left a response!
      If this is true, and I have no idea if it is, you can get the vendor banned from CB. If CB finds out and can prove that they are doing this, Badass of Tao will be banned from CB permanently and all their earnings will be confiscated. That is Clickbank's policy.

      If you are SURE about this, you should report it to Clickbank and show proof.
      Signature
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      • Profile picture of the author JoshuaPellicer
        How about - if it's happening, let me know asap so I can fix the damn problem instead...
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  • Profile picture of the author Kroncept
    Hows the grav?
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  • Profile picture of the author opalfx
    i have the same problem with Tao of badass. i have so many hops for months and not 1 sale. makes me wonder if they dont even have a order form as this pretty unusual for any type of product with high gravity.
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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      I assume you didn't read the rest of the thread where I found TOB popup preventing the men from buying through my CB link.


      The proof is there, but obviously some people still defend this vendor. I can't advise you on what to do or who to believe, but please do read my post where I found proof that they were using their own shopping cart, blocking men from getting to the CB order form.

      Good luck if you keep promoting them!


      Originally Posted by opalfx View Post

      i have the same problem with Tao of badass. i have so many hops for months and not 1 sale. makes me wonder if they dont even have a order form as this pretty unusual for any type of product with high gravity.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rbtmarshall
    Glad to hear you narrowed it down. I figured it was something up on the vendor side stealing your leads.


    Imagine all the free advertising they are getting from all the affiliates this has happened to...



    TOB meeting:
    -Our sales are slowing and I think we've saturated this desperate market with our brand, what can we do? I just bought a house and car and my girl will dump me if I go broke.
    -I have an idea. eliminate commissions
    problem solved
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  • Profile picture of the author Slin
    Yup looks like you've figured it out. Sometimes fishy guys will make changes to their site so that you don't get those affiliate sales.

    Contact click bank and let them know, they're run by some pretty good guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author harperdy
    Yeah your conversions went down really fast, that means its not hot anymore. You need a new fresh product that people want, but not something saturated like DCSX. Hope this helped.
    Dylan
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    • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
      If ItsKelsie is correct, then what TOB is doing here is not just shady, it's actually fraud. You can't solicit people to promote your stuff in exchange for a commission, and then screw them out of their commission like this.

      Originally Posted by harperdy View Post

      Yeah your conversions went down really fast, that means its not hot anymore. You need a new fresh product that people want, but not something saturated like DCSX. Hope this helped.
      Dylan
      Please read the thread before you post.
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  • Profile picture of the author jpsween88
    I have had problems in the past with my hosting provider causing issues in loading the page. For example ... I used to use YouHosting for free hosting initially but noticed that over 50% of my traffic could not load my page due to some reason. So I looked into it a little further and noticed that my page would only load with certain internet providers. Weird??? I know but I switched to a paid hosting platform and the issues went away.

    Not sure if this relates ... but perhaps something you may want to verify is working
    Signature

    Please do not use your signature to promote affiliate/MLM programs

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    • Profile picture of the author topydim
      I don't normally post at all, mostly sit and read but this called for a reaction.

      First of all I want to thank the OP for bringing up this topic to our attention. I also want to thank one of my subscribers (who is also selling in this niche), a person was kind enough to inform me about this post after he received one of my followups where I was promoting TAO.

      My TAO sales have decreased exponentially over the last 5 months. My best selling month was December when I sent the most amount of traffic and towards the middle of January it suddenly died almost completely.

      I initially thought that my traffic sources are dried up so I went to find new ones. Managed to do that then noticed that sales for TAO still haven't improved. I was busy with other projects and didn't think to check just how badly the conversion rates have lowered. I just figured that the niche is saturated with this product but after reading this post (and many others) I've come to the conclusion that TAO is still selling as good for many many other marketers out there. It would seem that's not really the issue, especially because I've found a bunch of new, high-quality targeted traffic sources that buy pretty much all the other stuff I'm selling them.

      After some calculations it turns out that theoretically, in the last few months, they have been paying me for only 1 sale out of every 4. This means that they have only paid 25% of what I have ACTUALLY earned. I know this because my conversion rates have been exactly the same for almost 1 year and then suddenly changed overnight. Quite frankly it looks like I've been personally cheated out of thousands...

      I can also see the same pattern when it comes order form impressions so the OP's issue is spot on.

      Wanted to bring this up because it's more of us out there.

      Cool Hand Luke, have you heard anything from your CB rep?

      Has anyone tried to contact/confront the guys at TAO about this?

      Also CHL, if it isn't too much to ask, I'd also appreciate that tip on a new product since I'll have to change 15 emails in my followup with something else. I can guarantee you that we are NOT competitors on the same traffic sources.

      Thanks again all of you for dealing with this issue and for bringing it to our attention.
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      • Profile picture of the author Benny L
        I can't believe this was discovered a few weeks ago and nobody is going straight to the vendor with a gigantic "WTF?!!" and a few threats to notify CB!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author 100k
        Originally Posted by topydim View Post

        I don't normally post at all, mostly sit and read but this called for a reaction.

        First of all I want to thank the OP for bringing up this topic to our attention. I also want to thank one of my subscribers (who is also selling in this niche), a person was kind enough to inform me about this post after he received one of my followups where I was promoting TAO.

        My TAO sales have decreased exponentially over the last 5 months. My best selling month was December when I sent the most amount of traffic and towards the middle of January it suddenly died almost completely.

        I initially thought that my traffic sources are dried up so I went to find new ones. Managed to do that then noticed that sales for TAO still haven't improved. I was busy with other projects and didn't think to check just how badly the conversion rates have lowered. I just figured that the niche is saturated with this product but after reading this post (and many others) I've come to the conclusion that TAO is still selling as good for many many other marketers out there. It would seem that's not really the issue, especially because I've found a bunch of new, high-quality targeted traffic sources that buy pretty much all the other stuff I'm selling them.

        After some calculations it turns out that theoretically, in the last few months, they have been paying me for only 1 sale out of every 4. This means that they have only paid 25% of what I have ACTUALLY earned. I know this because my conversion rates have been exactly the same for almost 1 year and then suddenly changed overnight. Quite frankly it looks like I've been personally cheated out of thousands...

        I can also see the same pattern when it comes order form impressions so the OP's issue is spot on.

        Wanted to bring this up because it's more of us out there.

        Cool Hand Luke, have you heard anything from your CB rep?

        Has anyone tried to contact/confront the guys at TAO about this?

        Also CHL, if it isn't too much to ask, I'd also appreciate that tip on a new product since I'll have to change 15 emails in my followup with something else. I can guarantee you that we are NOT competitors on the same traffic sources.

        Thanks again all of you for dealing with this issue and for bringing it to our attention.

        I was planning on promoting this product hard... but after reading this thread I'm going have to find something else real quick!

        OP and YOU and everyone else that have been screwed over by this vendor needs to make a claim in the small claims court ASAP!

        Sue those mother f%(ckers!

        I'm so pissed.... low lifes
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Lenney
    Banned
    Adding myself to this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Lenney
      Banned
      I'm emailing them a link to this thread and asking about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author popcorn9257
        I saw some people( a alot) webmasters selling the book at $47 instead of $67! (This is unfair to affiliates like me still promoting the products at $67).
        Signature
        K
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      • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
        Originally Posted by eljeffe77 View Post

        I'm emailing them a link to this thread and asking about it.
        Let us know what they say. I'm promoting another offer in this niche now but am still very curious as to what their explanation could be.
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  • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
    Yep 301 hops to TAO in that last 36 hours and over 700 in the last 14 days.

    Used to get anywhere between 49 - 75 cents EPC promoting this but no sales in this period. Somethings up for sure.

    Just started promoting something else in the niche.
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    • Profile picture of the author topydim
      Yeah, me too. I just started promoting something else.

      On a different note, I have links on my site as well as in my follow-ups. Most of my sales (80%) have come from 2 very specific emails in my sequence. Those emails+links are the only ones where the CTR to the order form is messed up and are the only ones with devastating conversion rates.

      Other links that never sent that much traffic and such do not seem as affected.

      I really don't know how to explain this but it's clear that I should promote something else.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
        Interesting thread. VERY intersting. I'm curious to find out what exactly is going on with TOB, so whoever finds anything out please update this thread.

        In the meantime, if you guys are looking for another offer in this niche, I recommend Attraction Formula. I personally wrote the VSL and I can vouch for the guys who run the product -- you'll always be paid the correct amount you earn. Plus it's a damn good ebook and it really will help your visitors/list/etc.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dominican
          Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

          Interesting thread. VERY intersting. I'm curious to find out what exactly is going on with TOB, so whoever finds anything out please update this thread.

          In the meantime, if you guys are looking for another offer in this niche, I recommend Attraction Formula. I personally wrote the VSL and I can vouch for the guys who run the product -- you'll always be paid the correct amount you earn. Plus it's a damn good ebook and it really will help your visitors/list/etc.
          ^Agreed, another one that has really sold well for me is How To Read A Man. I have ventured from selling to men, into selling to women, and the conversions are much more strong, in this community, than in the male community.

          There are so many women, it turns out, who are struggling with guys- doesn't matter where you look, they are just in an almost desperate need to get help. This is why the Get Your Ex Back niche did so well too, with Tdubs Magic of Making Up, and the other products that flew out the door in a few years ago.

          I'd recommend that anybody struggling with the "guy" niche, just change it up to getting female opt-ins. They are very loyal, and active, especially for lists. I can't say I've found a better or more responsive group, even for products that have weak CTR's and conversions when you sell it right, you can get quite the return of investment, considering you really don't have to invest much to create a campaign for something like this.

          Chris Haddad has quite a few products designed for women too, and those have equally done well for me. Just sayin', if anybody needs any ideas- gosh there are tons of PROVEN guys out there, who don't take your money, and who APPRECIATE their affiliates. Chris is very kind to his affiliates, he hosts contests, he commends the good work.

          Anybody see Joshua doing that? Ha!
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          • Profile picture of the author Jeff Lenney
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Dominican View Post

            ^Agreed, another one that has really sold well for me is How To Read A Man. I have ventured from selling to men, into selling to women, and the conversions are much more strong, in this community, than in the male community.

            There are so many women, it turns out, who are struggling with guys- doesn't matter where you look, they are just in an almost desperate need to get help. This is why the Get Your Ex Back niche did so well too, with Tdubs Magic of Making Up, and the other products that flew out the door in a few years ago.

            I'd recommend that anybody struggling with the "guy" niche, just change it up to getting female opt-ins. They are very loyal, and active, especially for lists. I can't say I've found a better or more responsive group, even for products that have weak CTR's and conversions when you sell it right, you can get quite the return of investment, considering you really don't have to invest much to create a campaign for something like this.

            Chris Haddad has quite a few products designed for women too, and those have equally done well for me. Just sayin', if anybody needs any ideas- gosh there are tons of PROVEN guys out there, who don't take your money, and who APPRECIATE their affiliates. Chris is very kind to his affiliates, he hosts contests, he commends the good work.

            Anybody see Joshua doing that? Ha!
            I've already got a YT channel promoting products to women, but i havent done a TON with it yet - I'll have to add some more videos - checkin out how to read a man now - ty.

            BTW - Havent heard back from Joshua or his JV Manager yet unfortunately. They're both usually FAIRLY quick to respond (a few days at most) so if I do hear back, i'll let you all know.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dominican
    I find it funny how everyone is dodging the real purpose of this thread- and this particular product- which is to steal sales from affiliates. There has been talk in the community for some time now, about it- but nobody wants to directly come out and say it.

    I know it's not easy to catch right away, but a few of you are pointing out above, in this thread that you noticed a very heavy drop- yet you're still getting the CTR's. Welcome to dodgy marketer tactics- lazy pricks who want everyone to do all the work, and not pay them either!

    I hope he gets what's coming to him, from affiliates. People like that deserve to get burnt- they don't appreciate their own partners, and business foundations. Watch it crumble now!
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  • This thread is alarming.

    I found this thread by doing a Google search because I was concerned with the fact that I've seen order form impressions, and yet haven't gotten a sale from this product.

    Though my traffic is low-quality, it seemed very fishy that several people have made their way to the order form and then somehow decided not to buy.

    To the person who said TOB had installed a shopping cart, that's pretty messed up, and I do believe you, but I'm not seeing that on my end. When I click through, it brings me to Order Page 5 « Be the Badass that gets the girl (with some more code on the end of course). I wonder if that's still taking place for some, or what's going on.

    Either way, it surprised me to see that so many people are having a bad experience (to say the least) promoting this product. I'm seriously considering finding another product to promote. But, now you've got me curious to see if it might be something funny going on with the links too.

    I'm really thinking some of you could be right, and that we're being stolen from here.

    EDIT: I guess the above link is the new version of that shopping cart, but with this page you still end up on an encrypted CB order page once you click through.
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    • Profile picture of the author JoshuaPellicer
      Hey everyone

      I'm Joshua Pellicer.

      I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about this.

      To first answer a couple of questions that seem to be popping up:

      1) No, we're not peeling traffic off or clearing your tracking cookie so we can make a sale without paying you your affiliate dues... that would be completely retarded of us. Tim Houston (my business partner) was a big affiliate before he partnered with me (some of you may have known him before) and he'd wring my neck if I even thought of doing something that stupid.

      2) If your conversions are down, that's probably because the VSL is getting played out (that's my take on it, anyway - after seeing our stats across the board). And yes, some trafic sources completely suck and won't convert for shit - but that's always been the case for crappy traffic. We did generate a new vsl but we haven't released it to any affiliates yet because it's still in the testing phase (it's beating the original at the moment, btw, which is great news, so we'll be releasing it to everyone on our affiliate list soon). This vsl will likely replace the Goldfish vsl that we all know and love/hate/are indifferent toward. I can't take the credit for either vsl - Jon Benson is the real brains behind both of them.

      3) The new shopping cart - About 8 months ago, clickbank started "religiously" cracking down on us and our marketing - I say "religiously" because clickbank requires vendors to deliver a written version of any vsl/copy that they send traffic to for approval and, suddenly, they told us we couldn't use any curse words in our vsl, moderated the content of our product, itself, and generally gave us a hard time, causing us to notice, clearly, just how much CB had us by the balls if we didn't have our own shopping cart as a back-up. Have you noticed that a lot of good vendors left CB or are dropping in the ranks? They aren't dropping because their business is suffering - I talked to a lot of them and they were all having the same or similar problems with CB and were getting their own shopping carts to drive their own traffic outside of CB. So we decided to make several versions of our new vsl, starting with one that CB would not approve. Since we couldn't run it on CB directly, we created a new shopping cart to test it on our own, outside of clickbank. It should not be possible to send any affiliate traffic to this - we are the ONLY people who are able to drive traffic to the new cart at the moment!! If you are seeing ANY of your traffic going to this cart then there is a huge mistake and we need to know about it immediately so we can correct it and get you commissions!!

      I might not be on here to get your responses immediately (I don't get on forums much), which is why it's taken me so long to respond to this - but the best way to get a response and to end allegations like this is to contact Tim directly at tim@badassjv.com, but of course, not everyone (only a couple people) did this. We have always looked out for our affiliates and put them first and that is exactly why we got as big as we did in such a short period of time. But we're still a small company and we have had our share of broken links and other stupid mistakes that befall pretty much every normal online business. Here's what we *usually* do if there's an issue like this (and it's what I recommend anyone do for an affiliate if you screw up their commissions in any way):
      1) average out their EPC for the traffic they have been sending before the mistake
      2) pay them the same EPC for the untracked/mistracked traffic for the duration of the problem
      3) make sure they are satisfied and not pissed at you - if they are, see if there's anything you can do to help them and do it if it's not outrageous (some people are just dicks and it's better to just let them go early and move on) - and if they are happy, see if you can give them some other kind of extra boost just to reassure them that you've got their back

      We bring a lot of new customers into our niche from cold-traffic sales but we are also a solid affiliate for a lot of other good vendors in our niche and some in the weight loss niche as well. We'd be pissed as well if we thought someone was screwing us over, but I promise, that's not happening here. Either way, if you think there is something wrong with the tracking on your traffic source, let's work it out and get you squared away.

      That's all. This might clear some stuff up, or maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Personally, looking at this thread I know this has to be some sort of mistake but I don't expect anyone to just believe me blindly so Tim will be posting soon to give further details, as he's checking with our tech team now to see if there was some sort of glitch of which we were unaware. He told me he plans to post a personal response to this thread as soon as he hears back (probably today). To everyone who understands this, thanks for understanding - we won't forget it. And if there was a mistake somewhere I apologize for any frustration it caused you - and if you're willing to let us know and give us a chance to correct it, I'd appreciate it very much!

      Joshua Pellicer
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      • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
        Did Jon Benson actually write the goldfish vsl?
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        • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
          Thanks for responding in detail Josh, I look forward to seeing these issues cleared up. Any idea when the new VSL will be up?
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        • Profile picture of the author JoshuaPellicer
          Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

          Did Jon Benson actually write the goldfish vsl?
          Actually - I helped Jon create 3X VSL - I'm a whiz with creating systems for things (think: step-by-step formulas) and Jon needed a system for something he wasn't sure could be made into a teachable system so he got a hold of me and I told him I'd do it for him if I could try it out on my VSL first. He agreed so I took 4 of his top converting VSLs, did my thing, and spit out the 1.0 for 3X VSL. He edited my VSL a bunch and walked me through where he'd change things and why - then I added that stuff into the formula and made it teachable. I kept doing this until he said it was good enough to release. Then I released it and... holy shit - it worked! So, Jon is definitely responsible for my conversions. I got a good VSL that converts great and a business that could sustain itself, finally - and he got what John Carlton called "The best copywriting course he's ever seen." Awesome trade off! Now, our new VSL, I had nothing to do with that one.

          @ Cool Hand Luke - The new VSL is currently (not surprisingly) under scrutiny by CB and they aren't letting us release it to any of our affiliates. If you're on our affiliate list we'll be sending out an email as soon as it's ready/tested on mainstream traffic. It could be in a week or less, possibly. Unless CB doesn't approve it, then we'll have to get affiliate tracking software set up on our new cart and let people know about that. Either way, I'd bet we'll be releasing it in the coming 2 weeks.
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      • Profile picture of the author 100k
        Originally Posted by JoshuaPellicer View Post

        Hey everyone

        I'm Joshua Pellicer.

        I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about this.

        To first answer a couple of questions that seem to be popping up:

        1) No, we're not peeling traffic off or clearing your tracking cookie so we can make a sale without paying you your affiliate dues... that would be completely retarded of us. Tim Houston (my business partner) was a big affiliate before he partnered with me (some of you may have known him before) and he'd wring my neck if I even thought of doing something that stupid.

        2) If your conversions are down, that's probably because the VSL is getting played out (that's my take on it, anyway - after seeing our stats across the board). And yes, some trafic sources completely suck and won't convert for shit - but that's always been the case for crappy traffic. We did generate a new vsl but we haven't released it to any affiliates yet because it's still in the testing phase (it's beating the original at the moment, btw, which is great news, so we'll be releasing it to everyone on our affiliate list soon). This vsl will likely replace the Goldfish vsl that we all know and love/hate/are indifferent toward. I can't take the credit for either vsl - Jon Benson is the real brains behind both of them.

        3) The new shopping cart - About 8 months ago, clickbank started "religiously" cracking down on us and our marketing - I say "religiously" because clickbank requires vendors to deliver a written version of any vsl/copy that they send traffic to for approval and, suddenly, they told us we couldn't use any curse words in our vsl, moderated the content of our product, itself, and generally gave us a hard time, causing us to notice, clearly, just how much CB had us by the balls if we didn't have our own shopping cart as a back-up. Have you noticed that a lot of good vendors left CB or are dropping in the ranks? They aren't dropping because their business is suffering - I talked to a lot of them and they were all having the same or similar problems with CB and were getting their own shopping carts to drive their own traffic outside of CB. So we decided to make several versions of our new vsl, starting with one that CB would not approve. Since we couldn't run it on CB directly, we created a new shopping cart to test it on our own, outside of clickbank. It should not be possible to send any affiliate traffic to this - we are the ONLY people who are able to drive traffic to the new cart at the moment!! If you are seeing ANY of your traffic going to this cart then there is a huge mistake and we need to know about it immediately so we can correct it and get you commissions!!

        I might not be on here to get your responses immediately (I don't get on forums much), which is why it's taken me so long to respond to this - but the best way to get a response and to end allegations like this is to contact Tim directly at tim@badassjv.com, but of course, not everyone (only a couple people) did this. We have always looked out for our affiliates and put them first and that is exactly why we got as big as we did in such a short period of time. But we're still a small company and we have had our share of broken links and other stupid mistakes that befall pretty much every normal online business. Here's what we *usually* do if there's an issue like this (and it's what I recommend anyone do for an affiliate if you screw up their commissions in any way):
        1) average out their EPC for the traffic they have been sending before the mistake
        2) pay them the same EPC for the untracked/mistracked traffic for the duration of the problem
        3) make sure they are satisfied and not pissed at you - if they are, see if there's anything you can do to help them and do it if it's not outrageous (some people are just dicks and it's better to just let them go early and move on) - and if they are happy, see if you can give them some other kind of extra boost just to reassure them that you've got their back

        We bring a lot of new customers into our niche from cold-traffic sales but we are also a solid affiliate for a lot of other good vendors in our niche and some in the weight loss niche as well. We'd be pissed as well if we thought someone was screwing us over, but I promise, that's not happening here. Either way, if you think there is something wrong with the tracking on your traffic source, let's work it out and get you squared away.

        That's all. This might clear some stuff up, or maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Personally, looking at this thread I know this has to be some sort of mistake but I don't expect anyone to just believe me blindly so Tim will be posting soon to give further details, as he's checking with our tech team now to see if there was some sort of glitch of which we were unaware. He told me he plans to post a personal response to this thread as soon as he hears back (probably today). To everyone who understands this, thanks for understanding - we won't forget it. And if there was a mistake somewhere I apologize for any frustration it caused you - and if you're willing to let us know and give us a chance to correct it, I'd appreciate it very much!

        Joshua Pellicer

        Blah blah blah....


        Are You making POP UPs that allow the visitors we send to your landing page to buy the product without giving us a commission ?

        Don't write us a long bull crap response either, we are marketers and copywriters too - So stay on point.
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        • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
          Originally Posted by 100k View Post

          I was planning on promoting this product hard... but after reading this thread I'm going have to find something else real quick!

          OP and YOU and everyone else that have been screwed over by this vendor needs to make a claim in the small claims court ASAP!

          Sue those mother f%(ckers!

          I'm so pissed.... low lifes
          Originally Posted by 100k View Post

          Blah blah blah....

          Are You making POP UPs that allow the visitors we send to your landing page to buy the product without giving us a commission ?

          Don't write us a long bull crap response either, we are marketers and copywriters too - So stay on point.
          :rolleyes: Calm down.

          Exactly what about his response was "bullcrap"? To me it seemed candid and addressed the points the OP and others here (including myself) have made in detail. He even offered a medium for monetary restitution for any affiliate whose sales have slowed...

          You're posts are unnecessarily rude and don't represent "us" at all. If you have further questions, learn to ask like an adult. Flaming the guy when he joined specifically to address our concerns is completely counterproductive.
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          • Profile picture of the author 100k
            Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

            :rolleyes: Calm down.

            Exactly what about his response was "bullcrap"? To me it seemed candid and addressed the points the OP and others here (including myself) have made in detail. He even offered a medium for monetary restitution for any affiliate whose sales have slowed...

            You're posts are unnecessarily rude and don't represent "us" at all. If you have further questions, learn to ask like an adult. Flaming the guy when he joined specifically to address our concerns is completely counterproductive.
            Get off his crotch.

            He did not answer why there were pop ups that did NOT include the affiliate's link.
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            • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
              Originally Posted by 100k View Post

              Get off his crotch.

              He did not answer why there were pop ups that did NOT include the affiliate's link.
              Reading comprehension is clearly not your strong suit.

              He said he was previously unaware of any problems, that their separate payment system shouldn't cause any issues with affiliates and that his team is looking into it now. Further, he said that if any affiliate feels they were slighted, they should contact his affiliate manager and they will PAY for the loss in EPCs.

              Sounds like a fair answer to me... or perhaps you think more childish comments like this will help:
              Originally Posted by 100k View Post

              Sue those mother f%(ckers!

              I'm so pissed.... low lifes
              Take a chill pill, you are way too emotional.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeff Lenney
    Banned
    Hey Guys - I chatted with Tim on Skype, a few things he said:

    Tim Houston
    We do have a cart installed that we drive some traffic to but it in no way should should affect affiliate commissions
    I was an affiliate for 8 years before being a vendor, the last thing I would do is screw an affiliate
    In fact, the more our affiliates make, the more likely they are to stick around, that's why we pay 75% front end commission
    Anyways, makes sense to me - if they find anything out he said he'll let me know and I in turn will pass it on.
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  • Profile picture of the author socialsignals
    It is easy to make a few cents. Try living from it. ie perhaps sell a different product
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  • Profile picture of the author Marc Rodill
    That was a long response, but I don't see how it cleared up any of the problems raised in this thread?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Lenney
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Marc Rodill View Post

      That was a long response, but I don't see how it cleared up any of the problems raised in this thread?
      Really? I thought it was quite clear - and it put my concerns at ease.....try reading it again
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  • Profile picture of the author joaquin112
    I used to make $2k -$3k per month just from a review I wrote about that product. EPC has gone down since then, but I still make some cash. I think my last sale was 2 days ago, so yeah the product is still doing fine.
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  • Profile picture of the author hometutor
    Reminds me of a little trick most of you probably know but it may help some. I NEVER promote an affiliate link directly. If I don't send them to my presell page for some reason I send them to a page that redirects to the affiliate page. I also add tracking code on that page. This makes it a lot easier to change affiliate links. Especially if you post them in an ebook.

    Rick
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  • Profile picture of the author twinkenterprises
    I noticed something else about Tao on clickbank. The link you'd get from clickbank used to go to a sales letter type page. Just today I noticed it now goes to the goldfish video. I wonder why they changed that.
    I haven't seen anything come up to buy it except at the very end of the video. There is a button to click and a "safe secure" or something like that in the corner. What shopping cart is everyone talking about?
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    • Profile picture of the author Dominican
      Originally Posted by twinkenterprises View Post

      I noticed something else about Tao on clickbank. The link you'd get from clickbank used to go to a sales letter type page. Just today I noticed it now goes to the goldfish video. I wonder why they changed that.
      I haven't seen anything come up to buy it except at the very end of the video. There is a button to click and a "safe secure" or something like that in the corner. What shopping cart is everyone talking about?
      VSL's appear to work better in this industry- lots of guys are switching over to strictly VSL content.
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  • Profile picture of the author 100k
    What is this the twilight zone?

    Did you not already address that comment?

    Let me guess, you are going to reply once again and include the "sue those mf" post....

    Get a life....hippy. Peace and love... chill pills for everyone. LOOOL

    Now if you can stop bothering me and let the person answer for himself, I'm sure he can type for himself.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by 100k View Post

      What is this the twilight zone?

      Did you not already address that comment?

      Let me guess, you are going to reply once again and include the "sue those mf" post....

      Get a life....hippy. Peace and love... chill pills for everyone. LOOOL

      Now if you can bothering me and let the person answer for himself, I'm sure he can type for himself.
      LOL you're still so upset by this thread. Grab a tissue and untwist your panties bud, no need for the misplaced emotions.

      I would be remiss if I didn't point out that it's a little sad that you don't even promote this product yet you're in here demanding answers that have already been given while stomping your feet like a pre-pubescent girl who's daddy didn't get her Justin Bieber tickets, but hey, it'd just go right over your head so what's the point?

      As for those who actually promote the product: take Joshua's advice and contact TOB's affiliate manager. He was more than helpful and explained everything Josh did in greater detail. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm already promoting another offer in this market and doing very well with it so it was just to satisfy my curiosity, but the OP should still contact them and see if Joshua's offer of potentially making restitution to pay the difference in EPCs is really good. It seems like any redirects to the non-CB shopping cart were completely accidental and I'm not seeing it happen anymore, but unfortunately there's no way to prove it either way... everyone will just have to go with their gut on this one.
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    • Profile picture of the author bretski
      I'll have to read the whole thread but it's a pity since I was thinking of promoting this product.
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  • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
    No point bleating about it now. The thing is I have found TAO to be the best EPC in this niche. I'm as p*ssed as the next man about what MAY have happened.

    I have put a claim/query to the email address in Josh's message on here and am waiting for a response.
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    • Profile picture of the author topydim
      Originally Posted by W Wattles Fan View Post

      No point bleating about it now. The thing is I have found TAO to be the best EPC in this niche. I'm as p*ssed as the next man about what MAY have happened.

      I have put a claim/query to the email address in Josh's message on here and am waiting for a response.
      Same here, best EPC i've ever seen in the niche and what has happened p*sses me off greatly.

      I've also contacted the email mentioned in this thread and I'm awaiting a reply. If everything gets sorted I will personally come back to this thread and either apologize to TAO for my accusations, mention that everything was solved or in the unfortunate case of nothing...I will mention just that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
        Here's a brief summary of what appears to have happened, please correct me if I got anything wrong.

        1. Clickbank was coming down hard on TAO because of the (mild) cursing in the goldfish VSL. This is true, clickbank has become quite authoritarian with regards to cursing in VSL's (and even in the product itself) and a merchant is at clickbanks mercy as to what sales pages are and are not approved. This creates a potential problem for vendors in certain niches, such as the men's dating niche where they are forced to comply with another corporations moral authority. So they looked into using a different cart. A smart move, in my opinion.

        2. Affiliates promoting TAO should not have seen any traffic go to their new cart. If any traffic went to the new cart, that was a coding error. Contact the affiliate manager if you believe this was happening.

        3. They fully support affiliates as the affiliate manager himself was an affiliate for 8 years. If you think you lost sales, contact him directly and they'll sort it out.

        Finallly, just some random thoughts, why in God's name would any vendor dependent on affiliate traffic deliberately steal from their affiliates? That would be like the dumbest business strategy ever for a digital company. They do massive business, why would they be so stupid to jeopardize their main source of traffic for some short term gain? It just doesn't make sense that any of this would be intentional.
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        • Profile picture of the author SuccessMarketer
          Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

          Here's a brief summary of what appears to have happened, please correct me if I got anything wrong.

          1. Clickbank was coming down hard on TAO because of the (mild) cursing in the goldfish VSL. This is true, clickbank has become quite authoritarian with regards to cursing in VSL's (and even in the product itself) and a merchant is at clickbanks mercy as to what sales pages are and are not approved. This creates a potential problem for vendors in certain niches, such as the men's dating niche where they are forced to comply with another corporations moral authority. So they looked into using a different cart. A smart move, in my opinion.

          2. Affiliates promoting TAO should not have seen any traffic go to their new cart. If any traffic went to the new cart, that was a coding error. Contact the affiliate manager if you believe this was happening.

          3. They fully support affiliates as the affiliate manager himself was an affiliate for 8 years. If you think you lost sales, contact him directly and they'll sort it out.

          Finallly, just some random thoughts, why in God's name would any vendor dependent on affiliate traffic deliberately steal from their affiliates? That would be like the dumbest business strategy ever for a digital company. They do massive business, why would they be so stupid to jeopardize their main source of traffic for some short term gain? It just doesn't make sense that any of this would be intentional.

          Well said Sean,

          The reality is that smart product owners want to have "rich" affiliates... the richer they become, the more they also make. It's a win-win situation.

          It's also great to see that the owner came to the forum to set the record straight, rather than hiding somewhere
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  • Profile picture of the author bwh1
    Very interesting thread which proofs me once more that it's better to be a product owner than a affiliate.

    Anyway, why the owner of TOB doesn't setup an alternative program quickly (on JVZoo or eJunkie or wherever) and offer their affiliates an alternative link to promote the product over another platform than CB till the problem is solved?

    G.
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    • Profile picture of the author JoshuaPellicer
      I'll probably be responding to a few more of the questions/comments in here shortly - for now:

      @bwh1 Actually - we're doing that now with HasOffers - it takes a little time to set up but we should be done this week (without any setbacks).

      And to address everyone all at once and just to be on the record with this:

      My name is Joshua Pellicer - I own The Tao of Badass with Tim Houston.
      WE ARE NOT AND HAVE NEVER STOLEN SALES FROM OUR AFFILIATES. PERIOD.

      Anyone else who claims otherwise I'd like to talk to personally and hear what you have to say. We have actually heard back from our tech team and they triple-checked everything on the site and confirmed that this is not happening. We've contacted (and are still contacting the rest) all of our top affiliates and are checking with them individually and so far no one has seen anything like this happen on their stats. We don't see it on our side, our affiliates don't see it on their side, so IF you have a personal issue where you think this might be happening to YOU, please email tim@badassjv.com and we'll get on the phone with you to figure out wtf is going on and fix it. So far, we haven't been able to find any issue whatsoever OR any sign of an issue having existed at all.
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      • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
        Originally Posted by JoshuaPellicer View Post

        I'll probably be responding to a few more of the questions/comments in here shortly - for now:

        @bwh1 Actually - we're doing that now with HasOffers - it takes a little time to set up but we should be done this week (without any setbacks).

        And to address everyone all at once and just to be on the record with this:

        My name is Joshua Pellicer - I own The Tao of Badass with Tim Houston.
        WE ARE NOT AND HAVE NEVER STOLEN SALES FROM OUR AFFILIATES. PERIOD.

        Anyone else who claims otherwise I'd like to talk to personally and hear what you have to say. We have actually heard back from our tech team and they triple-checked everything on the site and confirmed that this is not happening. We've contacted (and are still contacting the rest) all of our top affiliates and are checking with them individually and so far no one has seen anything like this happen on their stats. We don't see it on our side, our affiliates don't see it on their side, so IF you have a personal issue where you think this might be happening to YOU, please email tim@badassjv.com and we'll get on the phone with you to figure out wtf is going on and fix it. So far, we haven't been able to find any issue whatsoever OR any sign of an issue having existed at all.
        Looking forward to the new VSL being released then. Hopefully this will get my earnings firing again! Thanks for the update.
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by JoshuaPellicer View Post

        I'll probably be responding to a few more of the questions/comments in here shortly - for now:

        @bwh1 Actually - we're doing that now with HasOffers - it takes a little time to set up but we should be done this week (without any setbacks).

        And to address everyone all at once and just to be on the record with this:

        My name is Joshua Pellicer - I own The Tao of Badass with Tim Houston.
        WE ARE NOT AND HAVE NEVER STOLEN SALES FROM OUR AFFILIATES. PERIOD.

        Anyone else who claims otherwise I'd like to talk to personally and hear what you have to say. We have actually heard back from our tech team and they triple-checked everything on the site and confirmed that this is not happening. We've contacted (and are still contacting the rest) all of our top affiliates and are checking with them individually and so far no one has seen anything like this happen on their stats. We don't see it on our side, our affiliates don't see it on their side, so IF you have a personal issue where you think this might be happening to YOU, please email tim@badassjv.com and we'll get on the phone with you to figure out wtf is going on and fix it. So far, we haven't been able to find any issue whatsoever OR any sign of an issue having existed at all.
        Joshua,

        I'd like to personally thank you for running what I consider to be the 'Rolls Royce' of affiliate programs. With a small web presence and email list you and Tim have paid me over $10,600 since November, which has helped me immensely with paying bills

        Obviously a program as successful as yours is bound to attract the attention of haters, losers, trolls, and competitors - as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread.

        Ignore them and keep up the great work!

        Barry
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        • Profile picture of the author topydim
          Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

          Joshua,

          I'd like to personally thank you for running what I consider to be the 'Rolls Royce' of affiliate programs. With a small web presence and email list you and Tim have paid me over $10,600 since November, which has helped me immensely with paying bills

          Obviously a program as successful as yours is bound to attract the attention of haters, losers, trolls, and competitors - as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread.

          Ignore them and keep up the great work!

          Barry
          I find it incredibly ignorant for you to call the people on here that are actually having problems, haters, losers, trolls.

          Like you, I've found TAO to be the best product I've ever promoted in any niche, ever. Like you I've made a great living form May last year till February. But overnight my sales dropped by 75%. Conversion rates decreased exponentially and the more traffic I sent the worse the conversion rates got.

          Initially it was 1 in 45 average. Then it got to 1 in 160. Now it's 1 in 350 with no more than 1 sale a month for the last 2 months.

          Before February, around 40% of the people that clicked to the VSL, clicked the order form and had an order form impression. Now, after 1200 clicks I have 60 order form impressions.

          Don't say I'm a hater, loser, troll just because the same stuff isn't happening to you. I'd like to see what your family says when paying bills becomes a problem because something happened over night and suddenly your 2k$ income from TAO went down to 250$ or less.

          Nobody is hating here, we just want explanations.

          Thanks and be respectful with all of us.

          Vadim
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          • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
            Originally Posted by topydim View Post

            I find it incredibly ignorant for you to call the people on here that are actually having problems, haters, losers, trolls.

            Thanks and be respectful with all of us.

            Vadim
            Yeah, okay. It was wrong to call you a troll, but it's okay for you to call me ignorant

            The bottom line: there are lots of reasons (other than theft by the vendor) as to why a page would convert less. With ClickBank products it's inevitable. Once the excitement wears off and bootleg copies proliferate, sales of an info product can fade away.

            A pro like you should know this.
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      • Profile picture of the author topydim
        Originally Posted by JoshuaPellicer View Post

        Anyone else who claims otherwise I'd like to talk to personally and hear what you have to say. We have actually heard back from our tech team and they triple-checked everything on the site and confirmed that this is not happening. We've contacted (and are still contacting the rest) all of our top affiliates and are checking with them individually and so far no one has seen anything like this happen on their stats. We don't see it on our side, our affiliates don't see it on their side, so IF you have a personal issue where you think this might be happening to YOU, please email tim@badassjv.com and we'll get on the phone with you to figure out wtf is going on and fix it. So far, we haven't been able to find any issue whatsoever OR any sign of an issue having existed at all.
        I've contacted you 2 times since last Friday. I understand that you've already spoken to the BIG affiliates, but what about the NOT so big ones, not even medium ones?

        I've emailed Tim and nothing. I emailed him again, and yep...nothing. That's 3 emails total since I emailed you guys about this before you replied to this thread.

        Will I ever get a reply?

        On a different note, has anyone that is EXPERIENCING this contacted them and gotten a reply? I know many of you have emailed them saying "is this true?" and they replied back reassuring you that indeed, "this isn't true". But I'm asking the people that have actually experienced something like this and are NOT big affiliates but rather normal people making less than $2k a month from selling this product.

        Thank you.
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        • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
          Originally Posted by topydim View Post

          I've contacted you 2 times since last Friday. I understand that you've already spoken to the BIG affiliates, but what about the NOT so big ones, not even medium ones?

          I've emailed Tim and nothing. I emailed him again, and yep...nothing. That's 3 emails total since I emailed you guys about this before you replied to this thread.

          Will I ever get a reply?

          On a different note, has anyone that is EXPERIENCING this contacted them and gotten a reply? I know many of you have emailed them saying "is this true?" and they replied back reassuring you that indeed, "this isn't true". But I'm asking the people that have actually experienced something like this and are NOT big affiliates but rather normal people making less than $2k a month from selling this product.

          Thank you.
          I got a reply from Tim saying they would look into it but nothing since. Are you still not getting sales?

          Mine have picked up again since I contacted them (not implying it's related)
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          • Profile picture of the author topydim
            Originally Posted by W Wattles Fan View Post

            I got a reply from Tim saying they would look into it but nothing since. Are you still not getting sales?

            Mine have picked up again since I contacted them (not implying it's related)
            I stopped promoting them when this thread came up. Couldn't take sending all my traffic into a seemingly bottomless pit.

            I might give it another shot once they change the VSL or when I get a reply but for now I'm going to test this new product for at least 2 months or so. I'm getting better EPC at the moment so it seems to be worth it.

            Still, nothing converts like they did before. I'm curios to know if what happened to you is actually related.

            Things might have changed since this thread appeared but I'm afraid to just promote them again and risk basically loosing all that traffic.
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            • Profile picture of the author JoshuaPellicer
              Just send me your email in a PM - Tim is out of the country and he allows his assistant to sort through his email while he's gone and send him relavent stuff (like this).

              I'll make sure he gets it and that he and Kellan (who sorts through his email while he's out of the country) see it.

              If another product is making more money for you, that's a great thing! Keep promoting it. Test Tao again if you feel up to it after our new VSL is released to the public. CB just approved our script (finally!) and we get HasOffers up and running in a week (which is a week later than I expected, but hey... everything in IM seems to take longer than I expect!).

              Cheers
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  • Profile picture of the author bwh1
    Before February, around 40% of the people that clicked to the VSL, clicked the order form and had an order form impression. Now, after 1200 clicks I have 60 order form impressions.
    WOW, that sucks.

    If this case here is sort out, and based on the product owners confirmation it will be, the question remains about how great VSL's really are then.

    Everybody is saying they convert great, what is now a bit questionable IMO.

    This is a bit off topic, sorry. Guess I better open another thread related to this one here.

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    • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
      After a 18 day drought I now have 2 sales in 24 hours!!
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    • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
      Originally Posted by bwh1 View Post

      WOW, that sucks.

      If this case here is sort out, and based on the product owners confirmation it will be, the question remains about how great VSL's really are then.

      Everybody is saying they convert great, what is now a bit questionable IMO.
      LOL, what? That is a ridiculous leap in logic. You're concluding that just because sales have decreased for this particular product, that ALL VSL's are "questionable?" I see that you even started a new thread about your flawed conclusion.

      VSL's are known to convert several percentage points higher than traditional long form sales letters. The problem with TAO isn't the fact that it uses a VSL, however it's very likely that their current VSL is getting played out. That happens to any control eventually.
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      • Profile picture of the author bwh1
        Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

        LOL, what? That is a ridiculous leap in logic. You're concluding that just because sales have decreased for this particular product, that ALL VSL's are "questionable?" I see that you even started a new thread about your flawed conclusion.

        VSL's are known to convert several percentage points higher than traditional long form sales letters. The problem with TAO isn't the fact that it uses a VSL, however it's very likely that their current VSL is getting played out. That happens to any control eventually.
        Look, I'm sorry and that was not a conclusion to the threads issue at all as the problem with TAO is related to some tech issues (most probably).

        Happens that there is another thread from a top listed diet product at CB which apparently has similar drops in conversions after switching to a VSL.

        I personally HATE VSL's and click away so I opened the other thread to know more about it.

        Again, as I mentioned, it's off topic and not really related to the problem discussed here but the similarity that both changed to a VSL before conversion dropped got my attention.

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        • Profile picture of the author ryanman
          Originally Posted by bwh1 View Post


          I personally HATE VSL's and click away so I opened the other thread to know more about it.
          This was a hard message for me to learn but I realized that if I personally prefer something, doesn't mean everyone else has that preference too.

          So it's not always about what you think would work or not work, rather it's important to let the market determine that.

          This is why one shouldn't assume anything and test everything.

          There is a reason why most of the 7 figure products use vsl's and that simple reason is - It works and does lead to better conversions.
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  • Profile picture of the author trader26
    I have been promoting Tao this month and doesn't seem to be an issue. Got at least 2 sales this month and 125% ROI on my campaign.
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    • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
      Well from earning nothing for 2 weeks in 1000+ hops I've now made $441 over 5 days from TAO from 700 hops.

      Weird but happy all the same!
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by W Wattles Fan View Post

        Well from earning nothing for 2 weeks in 1000+ hops I've now made $441 over 5 days from TAO from 700 hops.

        Weird but happy all the same!
        Happy just like a clown should be, eh Wallace?
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  • Profile picture of the author franamico
    Interesting...I actually started promoting it this week. I'm running a solo ad starting in Sunday (100 clicks). I'll let you know.

    However, a nice alternative is Pandora's box by Vin Di Carlo.
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    • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
      Originally Posted by franamico View Post

      Interesting...I actually started promoting it this week. I'm running a solo ad starting in Sunday (100 clicks). I'll let you know.

      However, a nice alternative is Pandora's box by Vin Di Carlo.
      100 clicks may not be enough mate. This is converting for me again so don't give up on it.

      Over the last month it has taken 121 hops for each sale and I warm the traffic up before sending them to the TAO VSL.

      Goodluck
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  • Profile picture of the author MuayThaiGuy
    My sales have also decreased dramatically.

    As another warrior pointed out, when the "click to order" button is clicked, the visitor is then re-directed to this page where they're prompted to "submit an application" and they're forced to input their name and email (to be signed up for a mailing list).

    I've attached a screenshot of this..

    I suspect this is why order form impressions and the overall conversion rate is down.

    The visitor has already clicked the "click to order" button.. why make the buying process difficult?

    Personally, if I had to "apply" and be forced to give my name and email prior to making a purchase, I would just close the window. I would find it to be annoying.

    And what happens if they input their name and email, yet don't make the purchase right away?

    Will they then be messaged with a serious of follow ups, and new links to close the sale, leaving our affiliate link in limbo?

    I would love for this interception to be dropped and for only the clickbank order form to be displayed when the visitor attempts to make a purchase.

    The "application" and attempt to get the name/email needs to be scrapped.
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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone who didn't accuse me of being a liar, hater, troll and admitted to experiencing the same unfortunate thing as I have....

      Muay, I'm sorry to hear that your sales have also went downhill.

      Something odd that I noticed when the sales stopped for a few months straight was: The grav used to always be around 350, then it just oddly dropped to around 250. The grav is staying in that range. After what I have experienced, I think there's more to that than a regular drop.

      I haven't been able to catch my traffic being redirected again; however, shortly after I last posted on here, I did see another affiliate name show up on my order page, multiple times, when using IE browser. ( affiliate name: crcb01.5p ).

      When I didn't listen to the entire video, just hit the refresh button for the order button to show up, my regular affiliate name showed up. But when I deleted my cookies, checked my affiliate link, allowing the entire video to play, this affiliate name would show up. Seems like it was programmed to drop after so many minutes into the video instead of right away. That way, if an affiliate were to check their link, it would seem normal, because most affiliates don't sit there and listen to the entire video as the customers do.

      I don't even bother reporting to CB anymore - it's been useless. No matter how much proof you show them, you get an excuse. I even asked them to have one of their programmers to check things out instead of the regular reps - who I would assume doesn't know much about coding.

      Muay, I agree with you on making the buying process difficult. It would be nice if The Tao of Badass would go back to the way it used to be: Program the landing page to show the order button right away instead of making the men listen to a hour long video - my conversion rates and order impressions were much better when the order button showed up right away. People have a short attention span, so why force men to listen for a hour just to order unless there's a hidden reason behind that - as what happened to me above?

      To the Tao staff, if you really care, can you please take our requests into consideration or at least do so for a month to see if our sales go back to normal?

      1. Allow the order button to show up immediately as it used to.
      2. Don't make the men double opt-in. (After doing a lot of testing, I have found that sometimes that second page gets stuck, so the men cannot get to the order page unless they hit the order button continuously and wait minutes for it to load.) Most are not going to go through all of that.


      Hopefully, you will work with us on this, so that we may all be happy and earn money.



      Originally Posted by MuayThaiGuy View Post

      My sales have also decreased dramatically.

      As another warrior pointed out, when the "click to order" button is clicked, the visitor is then re-directed to this page where they're prompted to "submit an application" and they're forced to input their name and email (to be signed up for a mailing list).

      I've attached a screenshot of this..

      I suspect this is why order form impressions and the overall conversion rate is down.

      The visitor has already clicked the "click to order" button.. why make the buying process difficult?

      Personally, if I had to "apply" and be forced to give my name and email prior to making a purchase, I would just close the window. I would find it to be annoying.

      And what happens if they input their name and email, yet don't make the purchase right away?

      Will they then be messaged with a serious of follow ups, and new links to close the sale, leaving our affiliate link in limbo?

      I would love for this interception to be dropped and for only the clickbank order form to be displayed when the visitor attempts to make a purchase.

      The "application" and attempt to get the name/email needs to be scrapped.
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    • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
      Originally Posted by MuayThaiGuy View Post

      And what happens if they input their name and email, yet don't make the purchase right away?

      Will they then be messaged with a serious of follow ups, and new links to close the sale, leaving our affiliate link in limbo?
      Likely. This is why I never promote anything with an email signup. What are you getting paid to grow the vendor's list? Nothing

      And where is the proof that YOU get credited for a sale which comes after they signed-up and then get an email for a "very special offer", behind your back?
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  • Profile picture of the author zapseo
    That seems pretty evil, from the surface of it.

    Just to be clear, though ... things like Google Webmaster tools will NOT show you if someone has hijacked your affiliate links (seriously, how do they know if an affiliate link belongs to the website owner, or to someone else? What if there are advertising banners sold on the website that have affiliate links from the advertisers, etc.)

    Nor will any of the other malware detection sites ... because it's not considered malware.

    This is something I've tried to communicate to my clients ... by the time something like Google Webmaster Tools detects malware on your site, you were "hacked" long ago ... the only thing that's different is that the signs of the hack are visible.

    My partner and I (in cleaning up hacked websites) have seen backdoors put into hosting accounts YEARS prior to a site being turned into, what GWT describes as ... "an attack site" ...

    There are problems for both vendors and affiliates alike, though, if the vendor decides that they want to change to a different affiliate system. Unfortunately, clickbank does not have a way for vendors (that I know, anyway) to know who various affiliates are...so there's no clean way of informing affiliates when they are changing payment systems.

    At the same time, if I am a vendor, I also don't want to throw that traffic away, either.

    It's not an easy situation.

    I have promoted well-known marketers who, for instance, were using 2 tier affiliate systems in infusionsoft and then change to nanacast...thereby me losing out on the affiliates I had recruited.

    There are a LOT of issues in affiliate marketing ... even without gamesmanship on the part of vendors (stompernet's notoriously not paying affiliates on their premiere launch years ago being one of them...)

    Unfortunately, though, it's part of the territory...choose carefully, and if you are doing well with a product, try to get into communication with the vendor. I'm suspecting if you are sending sufficient traffic and sales, they would be happy to have you in subsequent payment systems....

    (OTOH ... the name of the product contains "bad ass" -- so who knows?)

    It's not clear to me that there was an intent to specifically harm affiliates, but that it was an inevitable fallout of wanting to change to a different payment system.

    Just trying to provide some alternate viewpoints worth considering ... not trying to let the vendor off the hook.

    Live JoyFully!

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    • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
      Joshua Pellicer and crew, THANKS FOR CHEATING ME OUT OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!!!!

      Yes, I just found your new trick to steal sales by redirecting Chrome users to a video where you tell the men to erase their browser history - of course, so, we, the affiliates cookie gets deleted, then we receive no sales!

      This is the beginning of the video where Joshua had the affiliate links redirected to - at around 2:45, you'll here the guy in the video telling the men to erase their browser history. He gives a lame excuse as to why they need to delete it, but please, I see through that crap.

      Direct link to see full video: Goldfish http://www.thetaoofbadass.com/specia...ndexnvid3.html



      I have tons of ads for The Tao, each one has a separate link for tracking purposes. After finding out I was being cheated, I changed all these links to my mailing list.

      After I posted my last message here, I decided to retest promoting The Tao of Badass. I forwarded one of my Tao ad links to the Tao CB affiliate link. To my surprise, I received 2 sales that day from only 11 hops - and out of 11 hops, 9 clicked through to the order page. (11 hops, 9 order impressions and 2 sales.)

      I was excited - hoping Joshua and crew decided to play fair and credit our commissions instead of ripping the affiliates off, AGAIN.

      So, the next day, I decided to change another link back to The Tao. Now, with 2 links promoting The Tao, I received 3 sales from only 21 hops. (21 hops, 17 order impressions and 3 sales.)


      The 3rd day, of course, I was extremely excited to see my earnings coming back steadily again (even though Joshua steals ALL of the recurring commissions and I have never been credited for not even one out of all the hundreds of sales I have brought them.)

      Anyways, I changed all my links back to The Tao on the 3rd day. What a disappointment - 80+ hops, ZERO order impressions and ZERO sales. The next day, the day after, etc. the same old story.

      I had internet connection issues this morning which lead me to creating a new computer user account - this is how I found you cheating us again. You have some great programmers on your team - you find all sorts of ways to cheat us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Sorry for my rant, but I am beyond frustrated - Joshua, you are a no good thief and I cannot wait until karma comes for you!!!


      But of course, why not cheat the affiliates - CB refuses to do anything about you scamming affiliates out of money because they still get their cut regardless, then you have affiliates who choose your side no matter how much proof is shown that you are STEALING OUR COMMISSIONS & STEALING THE RECURRING COMMISSIONS... I absolutely cannot wait until karma whoops your a**!!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author hometutor
        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

        Joshua Pellicer and crew, [B][COLOR="Red"]


        But of course, why not cheat the affiliates - CB refuses to do anything about you scamming affiliates out of money because they still get their cut
        Clickbank talks the talk, but DOES NOT walk the walk when it comes to protecting its vendors. That's why I stay away from them and highly recommend a class action suit against any company which refunds on 50% or more requests to force these companies to provide free drm for their vendors.

        Rick
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      • Profile picture of the author mosthost
        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

        Joshua Pellicer and crew, THANKS FOR CHEATING ME OUT OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS!!!!
        So why are you still sending traffic there if you're convinced you're being scammed? Wouldn't you eventually quit and move on?
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
          Mosthost,

          I believe that he first suspected something wrong. Then he tested it to back up his claims. He then got an answer from the vendor, and he continued to test. Then he found out the truth... and then well... I"m sure he is not sending traffic anymore.

          Some of these issues are not cut and dry, specially since many of us have intergraded this offer into our websites, email responder follow ups, Ads, etc.

          But yeah... life goes on.

          Originally Posted by mosthost View Post

          So why are you still sending traffic there if you're convinced you're being scammed? Wouldn't you eventually quit and move on?
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          • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
            Where is the new reply from Tao ownership about the fact that affiliate sales are being hijacked into list signups, affiliate names are being switched in the shopping cart, and affiliate traffic is being told to erase their browser history containing the cookies before buying?

            If I had been promoting this product, I would be calling their local police, county sheriff, state police, state attorney general, and federal authorities by now to report fraud. I would also be filing a civil suit. They will have to pay not only your stolen commissions but also your legal fees when a judgment is rendered against them, so why not?
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            • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
              Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

              Where is the new reply from Tao ownership about the fact that affiliate sales are being hijacked into list signups, affiliate names are being switched in the shopping cart, and affiliate traffic is being told to erase their browser history containing the cookies before buying?

              If I had been promoting this product, I would be calling their local police, county sheriff, state police, state attorney general, and federal authorities by now to report fraud. I would also be filing a civil suit. They will have to pay not only your stolen commissions but also your legal fees when a judgment is rendered against them, so why not?
              If you keep giving legal advice like this in a public forum you may have to pay out for impersonating a lawyer.

              Your 'lawsuit' is based on quite a leap in logic to 'browser history containing the cookies.'
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          • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
            Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

            Mosthost,

            I believe that he first suspected something wrong. Then he tested it to back up his claims. He then got an answer from the vendor, and he continued to test. Then he found out the truth... and then well... I"m sure he is not sending traffic anymore.

            Some of these issues are not cut and dry, specially since many of us have intergraded this offer into our websites, email responder follow ups, Ads, etc.

            But yeah... life goes on.
            Strange behavior. This thread started on May 25th. It's nearly three months later and the OP is still 'testing' the traffic.

            Funny thing is, the 'smoking gun' that 'proves' the scam mentions removing browsing history. You do understand how Chrome works and how the history function work? Cookies and browsing history quite obviously are not the same thing. The 'history' is a list of websites you've visited.

            This program has been around for a long while. It makes sense they keep testing landing pages.
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            • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
              PerformanceMan,

              I just checked both FireFox and Chrome, and when you go to erase "history" (Just like The Tao of Badass suggests their prospects todo) I automatically get a check in box that's already marked in for cookies to be wiped away also.

              Do you really believe that prospects will heed to the erasing of web history advice but suddenly say "oh no! I must uncheck that box so cookies won't be erased!" ?? Hmm... NO. Even I wipe off all cookies when erasing Browsing History - it goes hand in hand.

              I know you are smarter than this my man.

              I was born at night but I wasn't born last night.

              PS. And like I said earlier: "If you STILL support this kind of behavior - that's cool man. To each his own."

              Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

              Strange behavior. This thread started on May 25th. It's nearly three months later and the OP is still 'testing' the traffic.

              Funny thing is, the 'smoking gun' that 'proves' the scam mentions removing browsing history. You do understand how Chrome works and how the history function work? Cookies and browsing history quite obviously are not the same thing. The 'history' is a list of websites you've visited.

              This program has been around for a long while. It makes sense they keep testing landing pages.
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              • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
                Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

                PerformanceMan,

                I just checked both FireFox and Chrome, and when you go to erase "history" (Just like The Tao of Badass suggests their prospects todo) I automatically get a check in box that's already marked in for cookies to be wiped away also.

                Do you really believe that prospects will heed to the erasing of web history advice but suddenly say "oh no! I must uncheck that box so cookies won't be erased!" ?? Hmm... NO. Even I wipe off all cookies when erasing Browsing History - it goes hand in hand.

                I know you are smarter than this my man.

                I was born at night but I wasn't born last night.

                PS. And like I said earlier: "If you STILL support this kind of behavior - that's cool man. To each his own."
                You might have been born last night. I have no way of telling.

                So what link is being redirected?

                The gibberish rant post from 'itsKelsie' makes no sense at all. I clicked on my own Hoplink in Chrome and went straight to Josh's 'goldfish video.'

                I wasn't redirected. Let's get specific here.
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                • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
                  PerformanceMan,

                  You just lost all credibility with me my man. Nowhere in my comment do I ever talk about a "link being redirected"

                  I suggest that next time you pay close attention to what people write.

                  And Firefox and Chrome DO come with a preset of a box being checked in for cookies to be erased when "history is erased."

                  Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

                  You might have been born last night. I have no way of telling.

                  So what link is being redirected?

                  The gibberish rant post from 'itsKelsie' makes no sense at all. I clicked on my own Hoplink in Chrome and went straight to Josh's 'goldfish video.'

                  I wasn't redirected. Let's get specific here.
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                  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
                    Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

                    PerformanceMan,

                    You just lost all credibility with me my man. Nowhere in my comment do I ever talk about a "link being redirected"

                    I suggest that next time you pay closer attention at to what people write.

                    And Firefox and Chrome DO come with a preset of a box being checked in for cookies to be erased when "history is erased."
                    The post by 'itsKelsie' talks about links being redirected.

                    How exactly are you getting to that video in Chrome? You're going to the static HTML page that 'itsKelsie' linked to?

                    What the heck does that have to do with a Hoplink?

                    The default Hoplinks for Tao of Badass are not going to that page.

                    The redirection links are the whole factual basis for the 'fraud' claim. Have you lost the plot this easily? LOL
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              • Profile picture of the author ItsKelsie
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            • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
              Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

              Strange behavior. This thread started on May 25th. It's nearly three months later and the OP is still 'testing' the traffic.

              Funny thing is, the 'smoking gun' that 'proves' the scam mentions removing browsing history. You do understand how Chrome works and how the history function work? Cookies and browsing history quite obviously are not the same thing. The 'history' is a list of websites you've visited.
              When I go into the Chrome history settings and click to delete the browsing history, it brings up a list of things to be deleted, all of which are checked by default. One of them is "Delete cookies and other site and plug-in data". Deleting the cookies along with the history is the default behavior in Chrome.

              It's also not as if that's the only thing we're talking about, either. There's also the hijacking of affiliate leads into an opt-in form and the switching of affiliate names in the shopping cart.

              If you keep giving legal advice like this in a public forum you may have to pay out for impersonating a lawyer.
              Let me be perfectly clear: I am not a lawyer. However, I'm not sure how what I've said constitutes the kind of legal advice only a lawyer can give.

              I pointed out in an earlier post that if Tao ownership is stealing their affiliates' commissions after soliciting them to promote the product by offering those commissions, this would be fraudulent and illegal, which is a simple statement of fact. It's not as if lawyers are the only people who can observe that something is illegal. Growing marijuana is illegal under federal law - have I just impersonated a lawyer by saying so?

              I then pointed out in my most recent post that when a judgment is rendered against a defendant in a case like this, the defendant typically has to pay the other party's legal fees as well. That's a pretty basic and well-known concept, and is obviously contingent upon successfully getting a judgment against the defendant. Since I'm speaking in the context of people who have been promoting this product, noticed they don't seem to be getting credited for sales, and then ostensibly found evidence that the product ownership is doing the three things described above (evidence which can be presented in court) when I say I would sue, I don't see how I could say anything but that I would sue. Wouldn't you?

              Also keep in mind that there's a big difference between "I would" and "you should." I'm pretty sure it's within my rights to say what I personally would do in a given situation, lawyer or no. The "you" in the sentence that follows in obviously the generic "you" and being spoken in the context of what I personally would do as mentioned in the previous sentence.

              My other comment about alerting the authorities is certainly not the kind of advice only a lawyer can give.

              This will be my last post on the subject. I don't have any skin in the game, and while the video in which the product ownership tells visitors to delete their browsing history (the default behavior of which includes deleting affiliate cookies) seems pretty self-evident, I'm not the one with documented evidence of the other two tactics mentioned (hijacking traffic to an opt-in and switching affiliate names in the shopping cart).

              It's for the people who feel they have lost commissions and have allegedly observed this behavior to take the action they see fit. And if somehow everything really is on the level here and nothing shady is actually happening, then so be it and more power to Tao ownership.
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              • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
                Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                Also keep in mind that there's a big difference between "I would" and "you should." I'm pretty sure it's within my rights to say what I personally would do in a given situation, lawyer or no. The "you" in the sentence that follows in obviously the generic "you" and being spoken in the context of what I personally would do as mentioned in the previous sentence.

                My other comment about alerting the authorities is certainly not the kind of advice only a lawyer can give.
                I believe you don't promote the program at all, correct? So you're just openly speculating for fun, then?

                In Chrome my 'clear cookies' is NOT checked by default.

                More importantly, are we supposed to believe that 'itsKelsie' lost 100% of affiliate commissions because 100% of buyers stopped at that point in the video and deleted their cookies?

                Seems pretty far out there, man. I mean, really, 100% of people don't do anything at the exact same time.

                But even more important than that, what the heck is 'itsKelsie' even referring to concerning the two types of links?

                I'm not following the logic and want a clarification. When exactly does this Chrome redirection take place and under what circumstances?
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                • Profile picture of the author Jon Patrick
                  Since you addressed me with direct questions, I will reply to them.

                  Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

                  I believe you don't promote the program at all, correct? So you're just openly speculating for fun, then?
                  I find the topic interesting.

                  In Chrome my 'clear cookies' is NOT checked by default.
                  Weird, mine is.

                  More importantly, are we supposed to believe that 'itsKelsie' lost 100% of affiliate commissions because 100% of buyers stopped at that point in the video and deleted their cookies?

                  Seems pretty far out there, man. I mean, really, 100% of people don't do anything at the exact same time.
                  Keep in mind that the suggestion for visitors to delete their browsing history was not the only issue being discussed.

                  But even more important than that, what the heck is 'itsKelsie' even referring to concerning the two types of links?

                  I'm not following the logic and want a clarification. When exactly does this Chrome redirection take place and under what circumstances?
                  Good question. I can't provide clarification on that, but perhaps ItsKelsie can.
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                  • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
                    Originally Posted by Jon Patrick View Post

                    Good question. I can't provide clarification on that, but perhaps ItsKelsie can.
                    Yeah, it's a great, super-pertinent question.

                    When you click on a HopLink in Chrome to The Tao of Badass, what video DO YOU see?

                    When I click on a HopLink in Chrome I go to the 'goldfish' video by Josh. I'm not being redirected. So, who, exactly, is?
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      • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
        Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

        J
        After I posted my last message here, I decided to retest promoting The Tao of Badass. I forwarded one of my Tao ad links to the Tao CB affiliate link. To my surprise, I received 2 sales that day from only 11 hops - and out of 11 hops, 9 clicked through to the order page. (11 hops, 9 order impressions and 2 sales.)
        Could you be more specific here? You 'forwarded' one of your 'Tao ad links' to the 'TAO CB Affiliate link'?

        What does that mean in plain, simple English? How do these two links differ? How would they end up at different landing pages? And what exactly does it mean you 'forwarded' it?
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  • Profile picture of the author jasondinner
    They could be shaving commissions. If that is the case, that is shady as a mofo and I'd be PISSED!!
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  • Profile picture of the author Nameless
    Yikes! I'm not defending the program, but browser history and cookies are different. However people who are not tech savy probably would erase cookies at the same time if anything.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I came across this thread by accident, and it's of great importance to me because I"m currently promoting this product, and after spending money on a PPC campaign recently the results where: nothing. NO SALES whatsoever. My website and ad copy is strong so I expected at least some results.

    I've carefully read this whole thread, and kept an open mind, specially after Joshua came on here and delivered a few explanations. It wasn't until "ItKelsie" last proof where he points to the video saying "erase your browsing history." THAT did it for me.

    Come on man, do you take us all for fools?

    I kept an open mind, taking into account both sides, the ones that stood up for Joshua, Tim and company, and those against it.

    But after this latest proof? This is REALLY sickening.

    If you STILL support this kind of behavior - that's cool man. To each his own.
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  • Profile picture of the author alvinchua91
    Guys, is this problem still there? Cause I've also been sending a decent amount of clicks there but to no avail even after some time..
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  • Profile picture of the author Tredi Andrasa
    Thanks God accidentally I found this thread.. I'll stop promoting this for a while until it's clear...
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  • Profile picture of the author Guru_Marketing
    Originally Posted by ItsKelsie View Post

    Hi, if anyone is promoting The Tao of Badass through Clickbank - do you mind letting me know if you're still receiving sales from this product.

    I have been promoting this product for about a year.

    My conversion rate for the first few months were around 1:18. I was earning a few dollars per hop. Now my conversion is 0:3000+ - earning a few cents per hop. Yes, my sales have went to hell. I send over 100 targeted traffic to them daily, but nothing for weeks.

    95% of the traffic I used to send would visit the order form; however, now that my sales have stopped, I receive hops but NONE of the thousands of people I send visit the order form now.

    I tried contacting the affiliate master, but I didn't receive a reply back. Of course Clickbank says the same thing over and over.

    Do you think I should change the links to another affiliate program?
    This product may have high gravity, but this does not mean it will sell on your traffic. The gravity is specific for a certain audience or targeted traffic.
    Try another offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lateef Olajide
    I don't promote this product but have a student that do. I think you have to consider your traffic source too. Low conversion didn't end with offer salespage alone.
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    • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
      Lateef, it would help if you actually read the thread before commenting, to know what we are mainly talking about.

      Originally Posted by Lateef Olajide View Post

      I don't promote this product but have a student that do. I think you have to consider your traffic source too. Low conversion didn't end with offer salespage alone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    I did see what Kelsie was talking about, yet I do not have proof that I will not get credited after the link gets redirected - that's why I am not accusing them of this... yet.

    But you must admit that it's pretty low to have an optin box on the purchase page (I'm not referring to the sales page). THAT plus the "erase your history" suggestion thing did it for me.

    Where there is smoke there is fire.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    PerformanceMan Quote: "The post by 'itsKelsie' talks about links being redirected.

    How exactly are you getting to that video in Chrome? You're going to the static HTML page that 'itsKelsie' linked to?

    What the heck does that have to do with a Hoplink?

    The default Hoplinks for Tao of Badass are not going to that page.

    The redirection links are the whole factual basis for the 'fraud' claim. Have you lost the plot this easily? LOL"
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

      Okay, that's a valid point PerformanceMan. I did see what Kelsie was talking about yet I do not have proof that I will not get credited after the link gets redirected - that's why I am not accusing them of this... yet.

      But you must admit that it's pretty low to have an optin box on the purchase page. That plus the "erase your history" suggestion thing did it for me.
      You and I have a different approach to life. I like to hear actual facts before I accuse someone of stealing commissions. That's a very low-life charge. In fact, it's damaging to Pellicer's business in every way.

      You jumped to conclusions based on a silly rant post. 'itsKelsie' has made 29 posts at WF. In all of them he/she/it have complained about ClickBank HopLinks.

      HopLinks are pretty straightforward. If this page that she/he/it found exists and customers are being forwarded to it, it could be causing a decline in sales.

      If the page is a 'test page' or something that isn't live and no one is going there, than this whole accusation was unnecessary, and irresponsible.

      There's no proof at all that 'thousands' of dollars have been stolen.

      As to the opt-in email box. That's pretty common I'd say. My understanding is that affiliates get paid the commission for 60 days, even if the vendor has collected the address. That's okay by me.

      At the primary video I get an email box that says 'Click To Order.' That's good, because there's no point in making a repeat visitor watch a lengthy video again.

      It's a good practice to capture the lead's email before they go there anyway. That way you have it too.
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      • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
        I stated the facts. If you still want to promote an offer after what I stated of what is going on - then more power to you.

        Again, if you missed it:

        -I stated that there is an optin box on the buy page (DONT get this confused with the sales page).

        -I stated that The sales video tells prospects to erase their "Browsing History."
        YOU can interpret that however YOU want.

        I lost money promoting this offer. I've listened to what countless others have told me (not just Kelsie) about what is going on, and I did my own research and came upon my own conclusion.

        Facts are facts my man.



        Originally Posted by PerformanceMan View Post

        You and I have a different approach to life. I like to hear actual facts before I accuse someone of stealing commissions. That's a very low-life charge. In fact, it's damaging to Pellicer's business in every way.

        You jumped to conclusions based on a silly rant post. 'itsKelsie' has made 29 posts at WF. In all of them he/she/it have complained about ClickBank HopLinks.

        HopLinks are pretty straightforward. If this page that she/he/it found exists and customers are being forwarded to it, it could be causing a decline in sales.

        If the page is a 'test page' or something that isn't live and no one is going there, than this whole accusation was unnecessary, and irresponsible.

        There's no proof at all that 'thousands' of dollars have been stolen.

        As to the opt-in email box. That's pretty common I'd say. My understanding is that affiliates get paid the commission for 60 days, even if the vendor has collected the address. That's okay by me.

        At the primary video I get an email box that says 'Click To Order.' That's good, because there's no point in making a repeat visitor watch a lengthy video again.

        It's a good practice to capture the lead's email before they go there anyway. That way you have it too.
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        • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
          Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

          I stated the facts. If you still want to promote an offer after what I stated of what is going on - then more power to you.

          Again, if you missed it:

          -I stated that there is an optin box on the buy page.

          -I stated that The sales video tells prospects to erase their "Browsing History."
          YOU can interpret that however you want.

          I lost money promoting this offer. I've listened to what countless others have told me (not just Kelsie) about what is going on, and I did my own research and came upon my own conclusion.

          Facts are facts my man.
          My man, my man. You and Kelsie have both been clowned in this thread. I don't care what 'countless others' say. You sound like the town gossip.

          Are you being redirected to that page or not?

          Those are the only facts in this thread. I'm not being redirected to it in Chrome or any other browser.

          On the buy page there's a box for entering your email to complete the order.

          Is this the 'opt-in form' we're debating? It's attached to order completion and doesn't have a Privacy Policy. This is where you're all claiming they're being added to a list?

          I mean let's use some common sense. The buyer has to enter an email to 'buy.' The vendor is going to have the email.

          BTW, I want to promote the offer because I'm getting paid. LOL
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Chicas
    Don't take this the wrong way PerformanceMan but you are sounding pretty ignorant by insulting others. And also by not reading accurately what others write.

    And If that is what you truly believe then more power to you.

    I don't get paid by what you believe or don't believe, or your whimsical emotions.

    But take my advice - learn how to respond without being insulting. It makes you look pretty childish. All the best to you my friend.
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    • Profile picture of the author PerformanceMan
      Originally Posted by Christian C View Post

      Don't take this the wrong way PerformanceMan but you are sounding pretty ignorant by insulting others. And also by not reading accurately what others write.

      And If that is what you truly believe then more power to you.

      I don't get paid by what you believe or don't believe, or your whimsical emotions.

      But take my advice - learn how to respond without being insulting. It makes you look pretty childish. All the best to you my friend.
      You've completely quit debating now, which is good.

      So, in other words that's not an opt-in box and secondly, you aren't being redirected anywhere?

      Calling people frauds and thieves if pretty childish too. I'm glad to know that this is the competition I face in the 'Men's Seduction' niche. It's like taking candy from babies.
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  • Profile picture of the author W Wattles Fan
    Ok, so whats the best alternative product to promote?

    I've created my own dating niche product and just waiting for the VSL to be completed before it goes live and want something to promote until then. I have free traffic. Any suggestions?
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