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6 Ft Of Snow And 5 Dead In Buffalo

by Steven Wagenheim
103 replies
  • OFF TOPIC
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Okay, this is really scary. It's the middle of November and NY gets hit with this?

We just broke a 132 year record low in NJ.

I don't even want to think what this winter is going to be like.

Snow Emergency: Six Dead, 100+ Trapped in Monster Winter Storm - NBC News
  • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
    It's lake effect snow ... which happens nearly EVERY November (sometimes even in late October). These bands (lake effect snow is not a storm) provide absolutely no justification regarding what the upcoming winter is going to be like.

    Come live in London, Ontario (where I live) and you get used to these outbreaks very, very quickly. I am sure Paul Myers is all too familiar with lake effect down there in Erie as well.

    This is a nice outbreak, for sure, though. Three winters ago here in London, we had over 60+ inches dumped on us in under 48 hours because the winds decided to blow from the NW over Lake Huron before the Lake was cooled off enough.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

      It's lake effect snow ... which happens nearly EVERY November (sometimes even in late October). These bands (lake effect snow is not a storm) provide absolutely no justification regarding what the upcoming winter is going to be like.

      Come live in London, Ontario (where I live) and you get used to these outbreaks very, very quickly. I am sure Paul Myers is all too familiar with lake effect down there in Erie as well.

      This is a nice outbreak, for sure, though. Three winters ago here in London, we had over 60+ inches dumped on us in under 48 hours because the winds decided to blow from the NW over Lake Huron before the Lake was cooled off enough.
      I have friends that live near Boonville, Ny on the Tug Hill Plateau.
      They call these early season storms Fall
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      • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
        Originally Posted by ThomM View Post

        I have friends that live near Boonville, Ny on the Tug Hill Plateau.
        They call these early season storms Fall
        Exactly.

        And, when I think I have lake effect snow bad, I think of those poor *******s up in Sault Ste. Marie or Thunder Bay. They get DEVASTATED at least once a year by lake effect.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steven,

    Lake effect snow and a major cold front. Makes for a nasty combination.

    The usual causes of death in these situations are freezing in a stranded car and heart attacks from shoveling. Looks like those were the culprits this time, too.

    The thing missed us by a little. Got the cold, though. Temps at close to zero, with wind chills below it. That's not as dangerous without the snow. I have friends in south Buffalo who got buried. Took my buddy 90 minutes to clear a path one shovel wide and half way down the one and a half car lengths from his door to the street.

    That was 2 and a half feet of snow ago...


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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Tis the season...
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Okay, so what exactly is lake effect snow? I've never heard the term before.
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      • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, so what exactly is lake effect snow? I've never heard the term before.
        This was just posted today and, despite the source, is actually an excellent read (even though the author, unfortunately, refers to lake effect snow as a "storm"): How Mother Nature's Greatest Snow Machine Works

        TLDR: winds carrying colder air blows over the still warm waters of the Great Lakes; convection occurs. This convection creates clouds and, thus, precipitation. Thin (sometimes VERY THIN) bands of heavy snow occur, often dumping 60+ inches of snow in just one area of a city.

        THIS is an excellent video showing the recent outbreak in Buffalo. You can see how quickly the lake effect drop off is. Within a distance of 2 or 3 miles is the difference between 2 inches and 100 inches:

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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          I don't know how Paul and you guys can live in conditions like that in the North.

          I guess you probably say the same thing about us here in Texas in our Mid July 110 degree,
          100% humidity days.
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          • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            I don't know how Paul and you guys can live in conditions like that in the North.

            I guess you probably say the same thing about us here in Texas in our Mid July 110 degree,
            100% humidity days.
            I was in Dallas a year or two ago for business. The temperature "fell" to something like 10C (so about 50F?) and you would have thought those Texans believed the end was near. Walking about in down jackets, with gloves and scarves.

            ... they likely thought I was a blasted alien with my shorts and flip-flops still on.
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

              I was in Dallas a year or two ago for business. The temperature "fell" to something like 10C (so about 50F?) and you would have thought those Texans believed the end was near. Walking about in down jackets, with gloves and scarves.

              ... they likely thought I was a blasted alien with my shorts and flip-flops still on.
              Wanna see something real different - go to Colorado and watch the Texans in their 4WD rental rigs during ski season.
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

              I was in Dallas a year or two ago for business. The temperature "fell" to something like 10C (so about 50F?) and you would have thought those Texans believed the end was near. Walking about in down jackets, with gloves and scarves.

              ... they likely thought I was a blasted alien with my shorts and flip-flops still on.
              Yeah in San Antonio if people see a snow flake they seriously make a mad dash to the grocery store in fear they will be forced to be house bound for awhile.

              Originally Posted by Loridori4 View Post

              and meanwhile in SE Texas....

              Windows are open, the sun is shining, and a cool breeze is making it hard for the mosquitoes to land as fast as they normally do on your bare arms.

              Just got back from an hour long bike ride. I had to take off my long sleeve shirt I was sweating so much with the sun out.

              It will be back to Shorts this weekend as it will reach 77 degrees by saturday

              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

              You can't shovel a tornado, Robert...
              Not in South Texas. No siree

              In the years I have been here in SA I have NEVER even come close in having to to deal with any kind of Tornado !!

              Never seen even a slight funnel cloud
              Unlike Tennessee !!

              I will take my 60 degree January's all day long here, thank you very much
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, so what exactly is lake effect snow? I've never heard the term before.
        Lake-effect snow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    You can't shovel a tornado, Robert...
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  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Okay, this is really scary. It's the middle of November and NY gets hit with this?

    We just broke a 132 year record low in NJ.

    I don't even want to think what this winter is going to be like.
    It's air from the arctic. What is happening today has nothing to do with how the entire Winter will be.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
      Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

      These bands (lake effect snow is not a storm) provide absolutely no justification regarding what the upcoming winter is going to be like..
      Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

      It's air from the arctic. What is happening today has nothing to do with how the entire Winter will be.
      Claude, now you aren't even pretending to read the thread before posting.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

        Claude, now you aren't even pretending to read the thread before posting.
        I was repeating what Mister Simms said, because I thought it was too important to forget. I'm a big Simms fan, and follow every one of his posts. And I loved his Avatar.

        If you ever said anything important, I'd repeat what you said too.

        It's like you don't even care anymore.

        You are the Ruiner Of Everything.


        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        I am EXTREMELY offended they would make you take that avatar down. Extremely.
        But are you...Disgusted?

        To the Mods...Please don't delete this thread. I'm extremely witty, and I don't want these examples of my comedy genius lost, because of these common rabble-rousers here.
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        • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          I'm extremely witty, and I don't want these examples of my comedy genius lost
          We have a winner in the Posts That Should Be Deleted By The Mods contest.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    This was a good hit. Buffalo area seems to find reasons to be under snow quite often. I was just laughing with Thom yesterday remembering some of my GMI pals "I survived the blizzard of 78" tee shirts.

    I don't remember if our huge dumps we got in MI when I was growing up were lake effect or not, but there were a few days once or twice every winter that we had three feet of snow to shovel out of our drive and a couple days off school while streets got dug out. My sister remembers a 6 ft dump that dad had to shovel us out of. This one is news, but I don't know when it became unusual news. When I was a kid, we called it......winter.

    On the other side of the country -- I just came about an inch of snow from being snowed in last weekend out in Central OR. We had one dump last year just big enough to snow me in. People here say it's been about a dozen years since we've had snow like that out here, but before that it was normal.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loridori4
    and meanwhile in SE Texas....

    Windows are open, the sun is shining, and a cool breeze is making it hard for the mosquitoes to land as fast as they normally do on your bare arms.

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Ah. I hadn't looked at the location.

    The heat and humidity would just about kill me. I was living in Florida one winter and it hit 98 and 98 in mid-December. Told a friend "Time for this Yankee to head back up north. Y'all can have this ____."

    Hit my first snow on the West Virginia Turnpike, and felt like I was home again.
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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Ah. I hadn't looked at the location.

      The heat and humidity would just about kill me. I was living in Florida one winter and it hit 98 and 98 in mid-December. Told a friend "Time for this Yankee to head back up north. Y'all can have this ____."

      Hit my first snow on the West Virginia Turnpike, and felt like I was home again.

      Paul it can be brutal.

      I lived out in Palm Springs in the desert for 3 years. I remember going out on the porch and it read 122 degrees.

      But it was dry heat.

      Here 108 degrees 100% percent humidity and it is so much tougher than the Desert heat.

      You get used to it. The winters are great but come June you stay inside.

      I do have really one sad regret. My children ( we plan on being here in SA probably all of their life) will NEVER experience snow.

      Growing up in Tennessee was not like PA or NY but we had many, many foot deep snows.

      I loved it and hate the fact my kids have never seen snow in person ( sledding, building snowmen, eating snow cream, snow ball fights)
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Anyone else tired of hearing about people being stuck in the snow in their cars without food and water?

    You don't need to be a "doomsday prepper" to prepare for something like this. Everyone that lives anywhere it snows should at least pack a bunch of long burning candles, a couple of bic lighters and something to melt snow in. Don't count on your vehicle's heater to keep you warm. You may run out of gas or it may break down. Get a couple of those reflective car sun shades. They will reflect a lot of the heat back at you.

    Also, pack some powdered milk and Carnation Instant Breakfasts. Powdered stuff is good because it can withstand cold and heat. Also, take some instant tea or coffee, etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

      Anyone else tired of hearing about people being stuck in the snow in their cars without food and water?

      You don't need to be a "doomsday prepper" to prepare for something like this. Everyone that lives anywhere it snows should at least pack a bunch of long burning candles, a couple of bic lighters and something to melt snow in. Don't count on your vehicle's heater to keep you warm. You may run out of gas or it may break down. Get a couple of those reflective car sun shades. They will reflect a lot of the heat back at you.

      Also, pack some powdered milk and Carnation Instant Breakfasts. Powdered stuff is good because it can withstand cold and heat. Also, take some instant tea or coffee, etc.
      You remember that heater that's made with terra cotta planters and a candle? I have one of those in my car, just in case, with extra candles. Also carry water, food, blankets, shovel, and gravel. Beef jerky or slim jims, and some coconut oil are good to have. Fat and protein. Usually have chains, too but don't have a set right now so will have to wrap nylons and bungie cords around a few tires if I get stuck. Always have some old nylons in the car, and duct tape, super glue, clothes, and long distance a box of mixed burnables (charcoal, wood, paper.
      I've seen just one too many people freeze to death because they thought all they needed was a cell phone if they got stranded.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kurt
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        You remember that heater that's made with terra cotta planters and a candle? I have one of those in my car, just in case, with extra candles. Also carry water, food, blankets, shovel, and gravel. Beef jerky or slim jims, and some coconut oil are good to have. Fat and protein. Usually have chains, too but don't have a set right now so will have to wrap nylons and bungie cords around a few tires if I get stuck. Always have some old nylons in the car, and duct tape, super glue, clothes, and long distance a box of mixed burnables (charcoal, wood, paper.
        I've seen just one too many people freeze to death because they thought all they needed was a cell phone if they got stranded.
        I'm not sure how effective the terra cotta pot will be in a small space, but it can't hurt and it's a possible "fire place" or candle holder if needed. Make sure the blankets are wool, as wool is rare in that it will still insulate when wet.

        I have more stuff than I posted above. I just listed the bare essentials any smart person should have that lives in areas that get snow.

        A couple of things to consider are a few road flares and one or two of those presto logs. If you ever really need start a fire, it's hard to beat the flare/presto log combo.
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        • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
          Somewhat off topic but how on Earth did Nate get a red card for what he wrote in post #2?

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          • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
            Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

            Somewhat off topic but how on Earth did Nate get a red card for what he wrote in post #2?
            I got reported for my avatar. It was the band Bad Religion's logo.

            A Christian-faith based member of this board reported me for "persecuting" her and her beliefs through my avatar.

            ... or something like that. I wasn't really listening.
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            • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
              Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

              I got reported for my avatar. It was the band Bad Religion's logo.

              A Christian-faith based member of this board reported me for "persecuting" her and her beliefs through my avatar.

              ... or something like that. I wasn't really listening.
              Crikey, it's a funny world when you can persecute someone from your 18x18 avatar.

              On another note how's London over there? I just looked and you're certainly colder over there than my London.
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              • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
                Originally Posted by Richard Van View Post

                Crikey, it's a funny world when you can persecute someone from your 18x18 avatar.

                On another note how's London over there? I just looked and you're certainly colder over there than my London.
                Eh, the weather gauge says -10C. Bitterly cold right now with the wind and blowing snow.

                ... on the other hand, we only have minimal amounts of snow on the ground right now. Not seven feet like Buffalo. So I got that going for me.
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

              I got reported for my avatar. It was the band Bad Religion's logo.

              A Christian-faith based member of this board reported me for "persecuting" her and her beliefs through my avatar.

              ... or something like that. I wasn't really listening.
              She's persecuted by a band's name? Really? Jeez I can't believe we're going to be subjected to that kind of PC nonsense in here. Bad move Mods. As soon you let the persecution complexers start pulling stuff like this, you're gonna be swamped with complaints - and if you act on their controlling demands, you'll end up without a forum at all.

              I am EXTREMELY offended they would make you take that avatar down. Extremely.
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              • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                She's persecuted by a band's name? Really? Jeez I can't believe we're going to be subjected to that kind of PC nonsense in here. Bad move Mods. As soon you let the persecution complexers start pulling stuff like this, you're gonna be swamped with complaints - and if you act on their controlling demands, you'll end up without a forum at all.

                I am EXTREMELY offended they would make you take that avatar down. Extremely.
                What next? Banning music videos from Black Sabbath or Judas Priest?

                This is on par with a certain group of people rioting over their main guy being depicted in cartoons.
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              • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                She's persecuted by a band's name? Really? Jeez I can't believe we're going to be subjected to that kind of PC nonsense in here. Bad move Mods. As soon you let the persecution complexers start pulling stuff like this, you're gonna be swamped with complaints - and if you act on their controlling demands, you'll end up without a forum at all.

                I am EXTREMELY offended they would make you take that avatar down. Extremely.
                It's really not a big deal. I mean, there is the posted rule in OT banning the discussion of politics & religion.

                ... if you are interested, just Google "Bad Religion logo." I understand why the mods decided to remove it from my account based on the "no politics & religion" stand point.

                It is what it is.

                ... though, I do find it amusing that it was referred to as the "Anti-Christ Avatar" in the report sent to the moderators. Greg Graffin, the leader singer of Bad Religion who just happens to hold a PhD from Cornell University and teaches life sciences at UCLA, would be sickened to know his band's logo is being intercrossed with the term "anti-christ."
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                • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                  Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

                  It's really not a big deal. I mean, there is the posted rule in OT banning the discussion of politics & religion.
                  Funny thing is, I think the removing of your avatar is causing more conversation about that forbidden topic than if they would have left it there, or privately asked you to replace it with a different one.


                  Terra
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                  • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
                    Originally Posted by MissTerraK View Post

                    Funny thing is, I think the removing of your avatar is causing more conversation about that forbidden topic than if they would have left it there, or privately asked you to replace it with a different one.


                    Terra
                    ... my favorite part about this: One of Steve's threads is, yet again, turning into a train wreck.

                    At least he is nothing to do with it this time.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                      Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

                      ... my favorite part about this: One of Steve's threads is, yet again, turning into a train wreck.

                      At least he is nothing to do with it this time.
                      Because, Nate, I am the bringer of all that is chaos.

                      I am Jim Gordon's Oswald Cobblepot, Bruce Wayne's Selina Kyle, except I don't look as good in 7 inch pumps as Sal does.

                      I am Maxwell Smart's Zigfried and the chief's Maxwell Smart.

                      I am Jaws 2, Tron Legacy, and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen all in one.

                      You cannot wipe me away with Windex or mop me with Mr. Clean.

                      But WTF? How did snow in Buffalo turn into THIS?
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                • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

                  It's really not a big deal. I mean, there is the posted rule in OT banning the discussion of politics & religion.

                  ... if you are interested, just Google "Bad Religion logo." I understand why the mods decided to remove it from my account based on the "no politics & religion" stand point.

                  It is what it is.

                  ... though, I do find it amusing that it was referred to as the "Anti-Christ Avatar" in the report sent to the moderators. Greg Graffin, the leader singer of Bad Religion who just happens to hold a PhD from Cornell University and teaches life sciences at UCLA, would be sickened to know his band's logo is being intercrossed with the term "anti-christ."
                  Ironic ... there is now more religious discussion in this thread due to removing an avatar that really should not have been removed ... an avatar is not a discussion. It is an avatar and the only rule against avatars previously was they they have some clothes on and not be pornographic. This is pretty ridiculous that someone took the time to butt into someone else's business to enforce their own sense of religious propriety, and certainly not the majority's here sense of propriety.

                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  And by the way....what happened to Horny Devil? Is he here under another name now? I kind of liked him.
                  Perhaps it was his avatar and user name.

                  Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                  I'm trying to find out how bad it is, because I have family and friends in the affected area. One of these twits pops off with "So, how's that global warming thing workin' out for ya?"

                  I was actually angry. That's rare.

                  Paul
                  I know how you feel. I attempted a light, humorous thread on Unicorns and Anonymous and the KKK Twitter takedown and naturally, some had to jump right in on their Ferguson rants, even though there are at least 3 active Ferguson rants for them to spew in and even though my opening paragraph made it pretty clear what I would like to discuss.

                  Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                  If you add to the fact that Christians are being murdered all over the world for their beliefs, maybe I am a little sensitive about that.

                  byeeeee.
                  Everybody is being murdered all over the world. So? Should I report most of your posts in this thread for talking about Christians? Your posts have obvious religious overtones to them in this thread, breaking the real rule and its intended purpose.
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                  • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

                    Perhaps it was his avatar and user name.
                    I seem to recall that Horny Devil was banned for being an obnoxious @#$%^.
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                    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

                      I seem to recall that Horny Devil was banned for being an obnoxious @#$%^.
                      Yes ... I was being facetious. I know he was obnoxious. I liked him anyway, but he pushed the rules more than most.

                      @ Patricia. Paul gave a good example of this ... if someone had an avatar that said Proud Atheist and Atheist links in his sig and indeed Atheism was his/her chosen niche, would you also report that avatar? What about an avatar that said Proud Christian?

                      I would report neither. I respect other people's beliefs and I insist that their beliefs not be imposed on me. I really hope you don't leave in a huff because people disagree with you. Maybe you're simply not comfortable with diversity of cultures and opinions and would be more comfortable chatting with people who believe like you do. I don't know. Your choice, but I do object to religious topics being discussed in this forum. It is a business forum and I'm not here for religion. I do not object, as I've said, to any avatar or indication in signature that shows what a person's beliefs are. That has never been against the rules here before.
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              • Profile picture of the author Patrician
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                She's persecuted by a band's name? Really? Jeez I can't believe we're going to be subjected to that kind of PC nonsense in here. Bad move Mods. As soon you let the persecution complexers start pulling stuff like this, you're gonna be swamped with complaints - and if you act on their controlling demands, you'll end up without a forum at all.

                I am EXTREMELY offended they would make you take that avatar down. Extremely.
                No Sal - it is about equal rights - If we are not allowed to discuss religion then anti-religion should also be banned.

                You could not do this with a racial or political slur - Like a picture of a certain race with a red line drawn through it. As far as I am concerned this is persecution.

                I don't care if it is a band's logo - (who would know that off-hand???) They are using bad taste - they are offensive for doing that - a punk rock band probably enjoys being offensive. Up to a point that is why I like them because they are not politically correct.

                However I feel this goes too far and is like desecration of something that is sacred to many people.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                  You could not do this with a racial or political slur - Like a picture of a certain race with a red line drawn through it. As far as I am concerned this is persecution.
                  Would an Avatar with just a cross offend you? If it offends me, should I complain and get it deleted?

                  We should be fair.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
                    Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                    Would an Avatar with just a cross offend you? If it offends me, should I complain and get it deleted?

                    We should be fair.
                    yeah - you will be happy to know they are even desecrating graves to get rid of Christian symbols.
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                    • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                      Banned
                      I saw an aerial shot from Buffalo, today. The snow was 4' deep, yet there was one, lone house that had the entire area in front of the 2 car garage completely cleared all the way out to the street which was also under 4' of snow and the cars were cleared off and ready to roll. I have no idea where the hell they think they are going, nor when.

                      Strangest thing I have ever seen. Probably wants to make sure that he gets to the Bill's game on Sunday. Rest, assured that the fans will dig out the stadium.

                      It's football, folks. This is America.

                      Cheers. - Frank
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                      • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
                        Originally Posted by BigFrank View Post

                        Strangest thing I have ever seen. Probably wants to make sure that he gets to the Bill's game on Sunday. Rest, assured that the fans will dig out the stadium.

                        It's football, folks. This is America.

                        Cheers. - Frank
                        No football in Buffalo on Sunday.

                        The NFL is moving it to either Pittsburgh, Detroit, or Washington, D.C..
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                        • Profile picture of the author BigFrank
                          Banned
                          Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

                          No football in Buffalo on Sunday.

                          The NFL is moving it to either Pittsburgh, Detroit, or Washington, D.C..
                          Wimps! - F.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                      yeah - you will be happy to know they are even desecrating graves to get rid of Christian symbols.
                      I'm not happy to know that at all. It was a real question. If "anti-religious" signs aren't allowed, are religious signs? It's just a question.

                      Added later; Patricia. You took my post as an attack. It wasn't. I'm not joking. My concern is fairness, regardless of the symbol involved. For example; If it were a graphic of a gun, or a graphic of a gun with a line through it. Would both be wrong? Or just one? Or neither?

                      I'm only talking about the Forum Avatars.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        No Sal - it is about equal rights
                        No, Patricia. It's not. We never deleted avatars with Christian symbols in them, or made people remove Christian quotes from their signatures. Didn't do it with quotes from the Torah or Quran, either.

                        This is as ridiculous as the person who reported me for my previous avatar, on the grounds that the Stetson was offensive to native Americans.


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                        • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          ... the person who reported me for my previous avatar, on the grounds that the Stetson was offensive to native Americans.

                          Paul
                          That's a joke, right?

                          Please, Paul, tell me that is a joke.
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                        • Profile picture of the author Patrician
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                          No, Patricia. It's not. We never delted avatars with Christian symbols in them, or made people remove Christian quotes from their signatures. Didn't do it with quotes from the Torah or Quran, either.

                          This is as ridiculous as the person who reported me for my previous avatar, on the grounds that the Stetson was offensive to native Americans.

                          Paul
                          I think you are missing my point. The point is religion is taboo here. So therefore anti-religion should be as well.

                          That was just as much a motivating factor for me to take action as the insulting disrespect for the cross, something I love.

                          ... and again if this symbol was say a certain race or political party - it just wouldn't fly.

                          (and I do appreciate what you are saying about how we could get away with a few references and such - as long as a hater didn't jump out of the woodwork and make an issue of it).
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                    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                      yeah - you will be happy to know they are even desecrating graves to get rid of Christian symbols.
                      And that is complete BS, too. With all the problems there are on this globe right now, to have to spend public (or private) money because some control freak wants to butt into someone else's life when it's not effecting them either way is just plain mental illness.

                      Claude - your forehead in your avatar offends me because the reflection is blinding. Could you please take down the avatar, put some powder on to kill the shine and take a new photo?
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                • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
                  Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                  However I feel this goes too far and is like desecration of something that is sacred to many people.
                  So I guess you fully support that group of people who rioted over the cartoons of their guy.

                  They believed that something that was sacred to them was desecrated.

                  Where's the difference?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                    First. Thank you Sal. Maybe a little stronger than needed...but thank you.

                    But we are in real danger of getting this thread deleted. And that isn't my goal.

                    My goal was to be ignorantly insensitive and insulting to a nice lady. And I accomplished that. Can we move on?
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            • Profile picture of the author discrat
              Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

              I got reported for my avatar. It was the band Bad Religion's logo.

              A Christian-faith based member of this board reported me for "persecuting" her and her beliefs through my avatar.

              ... or something like that. I wasn't really listening.
              Iam a Christian-faith based member and I am offended by the gall of that Christian-faith based
              member and the Mods for being so ridiculously sensitive
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              Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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              • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
                Originally Posted by discrat View Post

                I am a Christian-faith based member and I am offended by the gall of that Christian-faith based
                member and the Mods for being so ridiculously sensitive
                Me too!

                And for the record...

                It wasn't me!!


                Terra
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                • Profile picture of the author discrat
                  I don't know. The Cross means a lot to me.

                  If it doesn't mean anything to someone else and if they want to put a crossed out mark through the Cross then so be it. They have a right to do it, imo

                  This is not some blatant sexual image or some violent bloody picture or anything like that..whats the big deal ?

                  Iam secure enough in what I believe to not give a sh@t to be honest.

                  To each his own.


                  Next.............
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  • Profile picture of the author NeedBucksNow
    Saw a picture earlier on Facebook & the snow was higher than a sliding glass door. Can you imagine being snowed in?
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  • Profile picture of the author Neil692
    Looks like weather goes crazy!
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      And now thunder snow. Oh and more snow.
      Buffalo, Western New York Buried by Another Wave of Snow - NBC News
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        where I live in the Niagara region is kind of a bubble - all around me - snow squall conditions - but we only got maybe 10 cm of snow - an hour away in Buffalo - oh my - they got pummeled - no one is going anywhere there -

        on a positive note - snow storms seem to affect the economy in a positive way - and there are so many fun activities you can do in the snow - I say this now - but as a Canadian who has had her share of deadly winters - by February every year, I have had enough of winter lol

        I think this February I will take a trip to somewhere warm
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

          where I live in the Niagara region is kind of a bubble - all around me - snow squall conditions - but we only got maybe 10 cm of snow - an hour away in Buffalo - oh my - they got pummeled - no one is going anywhere there -

          on a positive note - snow storms seem to affect the economy in a positive way - and there are so many fun activities you can do in the snow - I say this now - but as a Canadian who has had her share of deadly winters - by February every year, I have had enough of winter lol

          I think this February I will take a trip to somewhere warm
          Karen,
          We need to make a deal.
          Why don't we do a house swap in February. I take my kids up there to experience the snow and have fun in it, and you can come down here to South Texas and enjoy the sunny, 60ish degree temps
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          • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
            Originally Posted by discrat View Post

            Karen,
            We need to make a deal.
            Why don't we do a house swap in February. I take my kids up there to experience the snow and have fun in it, and you can come down here to South Texas and enjoy the sunny, 60ish degree temps
            not to sound ungrateful for the offer, but I was thinking some place warm like on a Caribbean island

            but you and your lids can visit anytime - however, we are about to have a big melt down - Monday we will have above seasonal temps - climbing to 57! all the snow we got will be gone - Buffalo could be flooded if they get the same melt-down - so it's a blessing for us and a curse for others
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            • Profile picture of the author Cali16
              Karen, if you've never been there, San Antonio is a pretty cool place to visit. Of course, if I had to choose between the two, a Caribbean island would definitely win!
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              • Profile picture of the author discrat
                Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

                Karen, if you've never been there, San Antonio is a pretty cool place to visit. Of course, if I had to choose between the two, a Caribbean island would definitely win!
                I do love it but I have to admit I miss the change of Seasons I grew up with in Tennessee. Fall colors etc..
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                Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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  • Profile picture of the author Smhype
    American gets crazy weather! I hope you guys are stay safe and prepare for the winter.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

    So I guess you fully support that group of people who rioted over the cartoons of their guy.

    They believed that something that was sacred to them was desecrated.

    Where's the difference?

    Why does there need to be a difference?

    However for whatever it is worth, I never heard of this cartoon deal and I do not support rioting. I don't see what is accomplished by violence.

    Then again what is your point? What if I did?
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    • Profile picture of the author whateverpedia
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      I never heard of this cartoon deal
      Information here

      Then again what is your point?
      My point is, what's the difference between your justification for what you did and their justification for what they did?

      You haven't rioted, but you've used the same justification.
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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        Originally Posted by whateverpedia View Post

        Information here

        My point is, what's the difference between your justification for what you did and their justification for what they did?

        You haven't rioted, but you've used the same justification.
        Yeah, I suppose that is true.

        So?
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    No, Nate, that was not a joke.

    Dude got outraged when, by way of a reply, I PMd him a link to a pic of a Navajo in a similar hat.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Dude got outraged when, by way of a reply, I PMd him a link to a pic of a Navajo in a similar hat.
      That is oddly satisfying.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        So....very sad about those people in Buffalo......am I right?
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Nate,
        That is oddly satisfying.
        It was also entirely appropriate. Some of the best "cowboy" hats are made by Navajos, along with THE best concho bands, and painted and feathered hat bands.

        There used to be a store in the mall here called "The Navajo Corner." One of the women who worked there showed up every day in my favorite hat. A black Stetson "Gun Club."

        If people want controversy, they'll find a way to manufacture it. Like the three separate conversations I was involved in over the past few days about the snow in western New York in which someone jumped in with a dumbass comment designed to drag the thing off topic.

        I'm trying to find out how bad it is, because I have family and friends in the affected area. One of these twits pops off with "So, how's that global warming thing workin' out for ya?"

        I was actually angry. That's rare.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Nate,It was also entirely appropriate. Some of the best "cowboy" hats are made by Navajos, along with THE best concho bands, and painted and feathered hat bands.

          There used to be a store in the mall here called "The Navajo Corner." One of the women who worked there showed up every day in my favorite hat. A black Stetson "Gun Club."

          If people want controversy, they'll find a way to manufacture it. Like the three separate conversations I was involved in over the past few days about the snow in western New York in which someone jumped in with a dumbass comment designed to drag the thing off topic.

          I'm trying to find out how bad it is, because I have family and friends in the affected area. One of these twits pops off with "So, how's that global warming thing workin' out for ya?"

          I was actually angry. That's rare.


          Paul
          I believe that was me. I didn't intend that to be a "belief" commentary. Just humored by the fact I wasn't in the snow this time. I'm not a southerner. I've lived through many a snowfall like that. Paul - this weather is the same as when I was 10 and helping to shovel 3 ft snows out of our driveway. We actually used to have one whopping bit of fun in our own way when it got so bad, even though it was a complete PITA. Calling it warming - I was just playing around, didn't mean anything serious or offensive.

          Sorry you were offended. I didn't mean it that way. I remember my friends from Sigma Chi's t-shirts that read "I survived the Blizzard of 78". That was what I was thinking about when I posted. I was on my way to a New Year's party that year in Canton Ohio and roads were closing right behind me. I was stranded at the party for 2 days before roads were plowed enough to be able to get back home. So a lot of people are in the frame of mind this is "new stuff". It's not. Not by a long shot.



          You have to have some pretty thick skin to live in that area - as well as where I come from in MI.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            I believe that was me.
            I knew it.

            When our most valued member, Paul Myers gets mad, you know it's a rare exception.

            So, I asked myself..."Who could have made him mad?"

            And the answer was obvious...Who makes everyone mad?

            So I did a survey. I asked the members of the forum "Who do you think made Paul mad?"
            and I listed everyone here (Except me, of course...I'm not a fool).

            93% of those that answered, said "Sal. Definitely Sal".

            I knew it!

            Well, young lady....I just want you to know that you ruined my Christmas. And Paul's.

            There is one way to make it up to "The Men Of The Forum".

            It involves high heels, fast music, a video camera....and yes...dancing.

            By the way, 7% of those responded said "Riffle, but then he's not a credible irritant to Paul, like Sal".

            This has been a public service announcement. Presented by The Voices In Claude's Head.

            And by the way....what happened to Horny Devil? Is he here under another name now? I kind of liked him.


            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Sal,

            The one I was referring to there was on Facebook,

            Paul
            Oh. Um....well......ahhhhhhh......hmmmmmmmm........

            Dear Sal;

            Riffle somehow gained control of my membership, and made a few inflammatory posts. I just now...um...got my newest computer....and um....

            I think you are a very nice lady.

            In other words....Not in the face.
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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              I knew it.

              When our most valued member, Paul Myers gets mad, you know it's a rare exception.

              So, I asked myself..."Who could have made him mad?"

              And the answer was obvious...Who makes everyone mad?

              So I did a survey. I asked the members of the forum "Who do you think made Paul mad?"
              and I listed everyone here (Except me, of course...I'm not a fool).

              93% of those that answered, said "Sal. Definitely Sal".

              I knew it!

              Well, young lady....I just want you to know that you ruined my Christmas. And Paul's.

              There is one way to make it up to "The Men Of The Forum".

              It involves high heels, fast music, a video camera....and yes...dancing.

              By the way, 7% of those responded said "Riffle, but then he's not a credible irritant to Paul, like Sal".

              This has been a public service announcement. Presented by The Voices In Claude's Head.

              And by the way....what happened to Horny Devil? Is he here under another name now? I kind of liked him.




              Oh. Um....well......ahhhhhhh......hmmmmmmmm........

              Dear Sal;

              Riffle somehow gained control of my membership, and made a few inflammatory posts. I just now...um...got my newest computer....and um....

              I think you are a very nice lady.

              In other words....Not in the face.
              RE: Video

              Dear Claude,

              While I can no longer place in which particular post you made your wager to me, I still remember your vow to post a like picture of yourself when I put one of myself in here. I not only remember but I am in the process of choosing the outfit that will make me look good, while making you look like a complete jackass while, at the same time, not being revealing enough to be completely, revilingly unseeable by all present methods known to science.
              l
              As far as movie of dancing. I don't have access to do that one - but can assure you that I have moves you couldn't even aspire to emulating. Better quit while you're ahead, stick to stillshot and go get a tan on your belly.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                RE: Video

                Dear Claude,

                I not only remember but I am in the process of choosing the outfit that will make me look good, while making you look like a complete jackass while, at the same time, not being revealing enough to be completely, revilingly unseeable by all present methods known to science.
                RE: VIDEO EXCHANGE

                Sal; I'm going to win this argument. It is impossible for anything I wear to not be revealing. Have you ever heard of anyone having love handles on their feet?

                Yes, it's that bad.
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                • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                  Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                  RE: VIDEO EXCHANGE

                  Sal; I'm going to win this argument. It is impossible for anything I wear to not be revealing. Have you ever heard of anyone having love handles on their feet?

                  Yes, it's that bad.
                  Maybe I'll be nice and not get the feet in the shot - maybe I won't. For a small fee (got a wheelbarrel of money handy?) you could get yourself the HeySal personal training sessions. Not for the faint of heart or heights phobic. Visibly pleasing results guaranteed within 60 days provided client lives through the initial training.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post


              And by the way....what happened to Horny Devil? Is he here under another name now? I kind of liked him.

              You haven't figured out that little chestnut yet?

              The evidence is all over the page.
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              • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                And by the way....what happened to Horny Devil? Is he here under another name now? I kind of liked him.
                Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                You haven't figured out that little chestnut yet? The evidence is all over the page.

                Gasconading again Dan. Perfidiousness on a 007 level.
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Riffle
                  Originally Posted by positivenegative View Post

                  Gasconading again Dan. Perfidiousness on a 007 level.
                  The cat's certainly out of the bag now...
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                  • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
                    Originally Posted by Dan Riffle View Post

                    The cat's certainly out of the bag now...
                    Best look out then . . .

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                    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
                      Originally Posted by Nate Simms View Post

                      ... my favorite part about this: One of Steve's threads is, yet again, turning into a train wreck.

                      At least he is nothing to do with it this time.
                      It was me really, I'd not seen the avatar so I read the post and couldn't see anything wrong with it, because there wasn't anything wrong with it. If I hadn't asked, this wouldn't have happened.

                      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

                      However for whatever it is worth, I never heard of this cartoon deal and I do not support rioting. I don't see what is accomplished by violence.
                      I replied to your PM and stand by that. I hadn't seen the logo when I commented and I'm sorry I caused this to blow up as it has. I have seen it now and it doesn't offend me, nor does a cross without a line through it. It does you and you have the right to have your own opinion on anything.

                      I do find it quite remarkable though that you didn't notice the almost global rioting and bloodshed that resulted from that cartoon. I don't quite understand how you missed it, it went on for ages and it was everywhere. Loads of people died all because they found an image offensive to their religion.
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      Apparently it is a 'forum rule' and the moderator who removed your avatar told me to let them know anything on the 'religion/anti-religion' front as it is not allowed here.

      You are calling me 'close minded and ignorant' and I feel that you are exactly that - in your unbelief.

      So move along...
      I do have "unbelief."

      ... but, if you had an avatar of the big JC on a cross, I wouldn't report you.

      Because I wouldn't be offended. It is your belief, and I respect that.

      And, yes, let's move along.

      No good is going to come of this anymore.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    No, Patricia, I am not missing your point. I have considered and rejected it, as being intolerant and abusive of the mods' position.

    If you had seen the reports I've had to deal with that were based in allegedly religious objections, you'd very likely have come to the same conclusion.

    Remember the Horny Devil avatar? Want to guess how many people reported him as supposedly promoting Satanic worship for that cartoon?

    We have always been extremely hesitant to mess with avatars or signatures, unless they're blatantly spammy or pornographic, contain affiliate links, or are aggressively abusive in a way that crosses some very clear lines.


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    • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


      Remember the Horny Devil avatar? Want to guess how many people reported him as supposedly promoting Satanic worship for that cartoon?
      I've heard he was a nice chap, and don't believe he ever promoted it on a Sunday.
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  • Profile picture of the author ForumGuru
    Banned
    Regarding the Bad Religion logo...

    The name Bad Religion and the crossbuster logo came to pass in the minds of two fifteen year olds in the midst of the Jerry Falwell scandal in 1980. They were trying to find the most offensive name and image they could possibly find for the punk band they were starting in their garage and "Dead Kennedys" was already taken. These are not people who thought that twenty-one years later they would be on the telephone doing interviews.
    Read The Brian Baker Interview Here

    Cheers

    -don
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    • Profile picture of the author Cali16
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      I think you are missing my point. The point is religion is taboo here.
      Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the OT forum rule states that religious topics in threads and posts (i.e. discussion of religion and politics) are not allowed. I wouldn't think an avatar would fall under that rule...
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Cali,
        I wouldn't think an avatar would fall under that rule...
        They didn't in previous regimes. No clue what the current policies are on the subject.

        Seriously, I don't see where it's anyone's business, as long as they're not somehow abusive. If a person's avatar said "Theists are morons," I'd have removed it. If it said "Atheist and Proud," I wouldn't.

        I wonder if Patricia understands how offensive some atheists find any religious symbol, and whether she'd feel their choice to be offended was somehow less valid than hers?


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      • Profile picture of the author Patrician
        Originally Posted by Cali16 View Post

        Perhaps I'm missing something here, but the OT forum rule states that religious topics in threads and posts (i.e. discussion of religion and politics) are not allowed. I wouldn't think an avatar would fall under that rule...
        If that avatar had a line crossing through your race or your political party - or say someone in your family - to connote banning or wiping them out, wouldn't that offend you?

        Look at the list of reasons for an infraction. "insulting other members" - THAT'S where it is coming from in addition to the gag order.

        If you add to the fact that Christians are being murdered all over the world for their beliefs, maybe I am a little sensitive about that.

        Listen I may as well end this because nobody sees my point and God knows I have been wrong before and maybe I am now.

        I am sorry that my being offended has got everybody up in arms. I do see your points even though nobody can see mine.

        It's really evident that I do not belong here, more so than ever. I wish you all the best though.

        byeeeee.
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        • Profile picture of the author Cali16
          Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

          It's really evident that I do not belong here, more so than ever. I wish you all the best though. byeeeee.
          Since the thread's getting back on track, all I want to say, Patrician, is that I don't think there's a person in this thread who wants you to leave over this incident (or for any other reason). So, I sincerely hope you don't!

          Now, back to talking about snow and crazy weather...
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Sal,

    The one I was referring to there was on Facebook, and it was a guy who regularly tries to turn every conversation into a bashfest. If you did it and I saw it, I was probably mildly annoyed, but that one just hit me at the wrong time in the wrong way.


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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Patricia,
      I may as well end this because nobody sees my point
      "Anyone who doesn't agree with me must not understand my position."

      *bzzzzt!*

      People of all sorts of religions are being wiped out all over the world. Know why? Because someone in another religion feels the need to push their views, rather than accepting that people of good will can believe differently.


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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Sal,

      The one I was referring to there was on Facebook, and it was a guy who regularly tries to turn every conversation into a bashfest. If you did it and I saw it, I was probably mildly annoyed, but that one just hit me at the wrong time in the wrong way.


      Paul
      Understood. When I see that type of thing said in seriousness I get more than slightly agitated, too - even though it might or might not be for the same reasons you do. Glad to hear it wasn't a post I made that was taken to heart, though. I don't even remember if I made that post in here, but it's me word for freakin' word, so I figured it was mine. I know I posted it somewhere. LOL. It's easier to take blizzards with a grain of salt when you've dealt with them your whole life.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Sal,
    It's easier to take blizzards with a grain of salt when you've dealt with them your whole life.
    I've lived on the shores of Lake Erie most of my life, in Buffalo, Dunkirk, Erie, and Cleveland, along with various smaller towns and suburbs throughout that stretch of country.

    Been there, shoveled that.

    That's why I don't take lake effect with any amount of salt that isn't measured in truckloads.


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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Suzanne,
    Ironic ... there is now more religious discussion in this thread
    I don't see any of this as being about religion. I see it as a meta discussion about tolerance, and where the lines should be drawn on non-discussion elements of someone's profile.

    All of these factors could as easily be applied to political elements, or social norms, or anything else someone might choose to be offended by that occurs outside the actual post parts of a thread. Even music.


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    • Profile picture of the author discrat
      Paul,
      Your Avatar is just disrespectful of my feelings. My Brother in Law is a cop and it SEEMS you are trying to make fun of government elected Authority.

      Iam offended AND AS A RESULT the Mods MUST take it down
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      Nothing to see here including a Sig so just move on :)

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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Steven,

    You start a thread about snow and you didn't expect drifts?
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Steven,

      You start a thread about snow and you didn't expect drifts?
      Very funny. I liked you better with the hat. LOL
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Steven,

      You start a thread about snow and you didn't expect drifts?
      He could start a thread about butterflies and puppies and it would end in a shitstorm. lol.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        He could start a thread about butterflies and puppies and it would end in a shitstorm. lol.
        Please don't give me any ideas.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Some of the snow measurements for Western New York...
    THE LATEST SNOWFALL REPORTS FROM THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE IN BUFFALO, NY: COWLESVILLE, 88.0"... NEAR HAMBURG, 79.5"... WEST SENECA, 78.0"... LANCASTER, 74.0"... NEAR ORCHARD PARK, 71.0"... WALES CENTER, 69.3"... WYOMING, 63.0"... NEAR BLASDELL, 61.0"... 4 MILES NORTHWEST OF ALDEN, 57.5"... COLDEN, 55.1"... NEAR WEST SENECA, 52.5"... CORFU, 49.0"... NEAR BOSTON, 48.0"
    Yes, Cowlesville really did get over 7' of snow. The friends I was worried most about up there got 6' 6". Fortunately, they were home when it started and they stayed there. (Not by choice.)

    And now the temps are supposed to go into the upper 40 and low to mid 50s the next few days. With rain. Then back to freezing.

    What doesn't flood will turn into masses of ice.

    There are only a few things I don't miss about WNY. This is one of them.


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    • Profile picture of the author ThomM
      With storms like this I always think about the snow build up on roofs. That's a tremendous amount of weight. If it's not removed before the thaw Sunday you can end up with an ice ridge on the edge of the roof that will act as a dam causing any thawed snow to back up under the roof shingles and freezing. I've been up on pitched roofs more then once with an axe and shovel trying to break up that crap. I've still got my ice spikes that strap on to your boots so you have a little traction on the roof.
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Thom,

    I saw a photo of what looked like the block an ex-girlfriend lives on in Lancaster. Looked to be about 6' of snow on the roofs.

    Low pitch ranch houses. Wouldn't surprise me to see a lot of damage when that stuff gets a little water underneath and the whole mass starts sliding down at once.


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