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This is sad. This especially shocks me:
"Suzana Vidovic found her sister's body hanging over the front lawn. The family watched, she said, as the girls who had tormented Sladjana for months walked up to the casket — and laughed."
One school, 4 bullied teens dead by own hand - Yahoo! Canada News
  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Well, the whole thing is a FARCE! NOBODY cares! They didn't on leave it to beaver, they didn't when I was a kid, they certainly don't for adults now, and I bet MOST that say they care WERE bullies! It is all a FARCE!

    Besides, WHO CARES about bullies!? What good does it do if society itself is a MESS!

    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    Bullying is a major problem that is all too often kind of invisible to adults until it is too late and some child is murdered by other kids or commits suicide. Even then, in such cases, authorities are typically scrambling to preserve their own asses more than actually giving a damn.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      Bullying is a major problem that is all too often kind of invisible to adults until it is too late and some child is murdered by other kids or commits suicide. Even then, in such cases, authorities are typically scrambling to preserve their own asses more than actually giving a damn.
      You see, THIS is what I NEVER understood! I finally came up with the answer! *******EVERYONE IS LYING********!

      "invisible to adults until it is too late"?!?!?!?!? I mean what planet were THEY brought up on?

      And it is only getting worse. When I was a kid, at least in the areas I was, I don't think weapons were EVER a concern. Things like the internet were almost relegated to a MYTH. The WWW didn't exist.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    Even worse the victims often become serial killers or mass murderers.

    'society is a mess' - that is putting it mildly. 'Going to hell in a handbasket is more like it'...
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      Even worse the victims often become serial killers.
      Maybe it would be more accurate to say that serial killers were more often the victims of bullying? Serial killers are actually quite rare, so, to me, "often" seems like a questionable word to use in this case.
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by Patrician View Post

      Even worse the victims often become serial killers or mass murderers.

      'society is a mess' - that is putting it mildly. 'Going to hell in a handbasket is more like it'...
      I truly think THIS is mostly a MYTH! You see, many that get caught want to reduce their chances of a long term sentence. So they will say they found jesus, have an incapacity, have some disease or disability (AS is popular these days for this), or that they were bullied or had some hardship. I bet MOST people that are bullied in school are just happy to get out. Eventually they may catch on that the "adult" world is FULL of bullies. They just use OTHER means to achieve their end.

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Patrician
    OK serial killers and mass murderers (Columbine) were often victimized by bullies - whether a family member or the little rots in school.

    ... and they are not as rare as you think. Many don't become famous but I watch a lot of forensics and crime programs and it is not that rare.

    In fact they say most of the crimes in the country are committed by a small percentage of 'citizen's - at least until we got 14 million illegal aliens so now there are a lot more -

    (these include murderers and kidnappers, people, drug and arms smugglers -- (I think the stat I saw was kidnapping is up 480% in Arizona) and guess what we don't know who they are and they just run back across the border.)
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    Wow, that's sad. I wonder why the kids who said they would kill her
    were never arrested. We see stories of knee-jerk reactions, and then
    something like this.

    And it was classic that the school claimed the records of complaints
    were destroyed when switching to a new computer system.

    Maybe that school needs to be leveled and turned into a corn field
    or something. At least it will be productive real estate, once again.


    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      Wow, that's sad. I wonder why the kids who said they would kill her
      were never arrested. We see stories of knee-jerk reactions, and then
      something like this.

      And it was classic that the school claimed the records of complaints
      were destroyed when switching to a new computer system.

      Maybe that school needs to be leveled and turned into a corn field
      or something. At least it will be productive real estate, once again.


      Ken
      OH, they will claim ALL SORTS OF THINGS! Popular excuses are....
      "FREE SPEECH"
      "BOYS WILL BE BOYS"
      "KIDS WILL BE KIDS"
      "S/HE IS TOO SENSITIVE"
      "WE AREN'T BABY SITTERS"
      "WHOEVER SAID WHATEVER"

      And WHAT records? WHY would they record complaints? They will NOT act on them, ignore them, etc... Recording complaints would add SO much noise, etc to the records that it would drown out all else and they might as well scrap EVERYTHING. OH, and did I mention? THEY DON'T CARE!

      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    This is not the schools responsibility,its the parents of the bullying kids.
    I am sure the school is just one of many places the behavior occurred.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      This is not the schools responsibility,its the parents of the bullying kids.
      I am sure the school is just one of many places the behavior occurred.
      I believe it's more of a parenting issue than a school issue. In the article it said that at the viewing for one of the girls that killed herself, another girl was seen laughing at her in the coffin, saying how "funny" the deceased girl looked.

      If I had a kid and EVER caught him/her laughing at a person in a casket, especially one that just committed suicide, I would be doing time for child abuse.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        I believe it's more of a parenting issue than a school issue. In the article it said that at the viewing for one of the girls that killed herself, another girl was seen laughing at her in the coffin, saying how "funny" the deceased girl looked.

        If I had a kid and EVER caught him/her laughing at a person in a casket, especially one that just committed suicide, I would be doing time for child abuse.
        But a lot of bullies probably COME from bullies. Think of the school as almost a chickencoop, and the bullies as wolves. YOU are sayig that we should expect the wolves to hold their cubs back. Like those wolves, the parents are more likely to ENCOURAGE it.

        Steve
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        • Profile picture of the author Kurt
          Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

          But a lot of bullies probably COME from bullies. Think of the school as almost a chickencoop, and the bullies as wolves. YOU are sayig that we should expect the wolves to hold their cubs back. Like those wolves, the parents are more likely to ENCOURAGE it.

          Steve
          Wrong again. At least you're consistent.


          I am NOT saying ANYTHING about wolves or anyone but me. I am saying with my attitude, I would have spanked the ass purple on any kid of mine that acted like that, which would have landed me in jail. Which is what I said the FIRST time. Got it?!

          Now go back to watching Leave it to Beaver...
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    • Profile picture of the author seasoned
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      This is not the schools responsibility,its the parents of the bullying kids.
      I am sure the school is just one of many places the behavior occurred.
      One of the places it is likely tto start and grow is in SCHOOL. Heck, schools sometimes PROTECT bullies.

      Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Andie
      Originally Posted by KimW View Post

      This is not the schools responsibility,its the parents of the bullying kids.
      I am sure the school is just one of many places the behavior occurred.
      Kim,
      I think this is the first time I somewhat dis-agree with you on something! :p
      Yes the parents have a responsibility...but the school Does have a responsibility to safeguard my child when they are in possession of him each day.
      IF some other kid/group is bullying my child and there is staff that is aware of this, I certainly feel they have a DUTY to not only inform me but to take steps to protect him and keep his education 'safe'.
      Sorry, but it should be part of their job just like not allowing guns, drugs, etc.
      Personally, I don't think I'd simply 'complain' for weeks/months though if it happened every day - my kid would be taken out of the place rather quickly if there wasn't some action to remove the problem.

      There was one case around here a couple of weeks ago where the 13yo boy shot himself with his step-dad's gun after being bullied for being gay since school started in Aug. He was the CUTEST little boy....so ...Now...of course.... everyone is in an uproar that all the 'complaints' didn't do anything.

      whining never fixes much of anything (unless you're a 2 yo)

      <very very sadly>
      Andie
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    Wrong again. At least you're consistent.


    I am NOT saying ANYTHING about wolves or anyone but me. I am saying with my attitude, I would have spanked the ass purple on any kid of mine that acted like that, which would have landed me in jail. Which is what I said the FIRST time. Got it?!

    Now go back to watching Leave it to Beaver...


    WOW, you're watching leave it to beaver? What channel is it on! 8-)

    Your last two posts CLEARLY indicated that you feel that the bullies parent should handle it. GOT IT!?!? It was an ANALOGY, GET IT?

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      WOW, you're watching leave it to beaver? What channel is it on! 8-)

      Your last two posts CLEARLY indicated that you feel that the bullies parent should handle it. GOT IT!?!? It was an ANALOGY, GET IT?

      Steve
      You are WRONG AGAIN!

      I am NOT watching Leave it to Beaver. I told YOU to go watch it. Go back and re-read YOUR earlier post on this thread and you may be able to figture out the reference. Now I even have to explain to you what YOU write?

      I'm really tired of having to write each post twice so you can keep up. Try Hooked on Phonics:
      www.hop.com

      PS. Your analogy was WRONG, which I said before. Telling me that it is an "analogy" is very considerate, but it doesn't change the point that it's wrong. But getting you to understand something in less that 3-4-5 posts seems to be unattainable.
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        You are WRONG AGAIN!

        I am NOT watching Leave it to Beaver. I told YOU to go watch it. Go back and re-read YOUR earlier post on this thread and you may be able to figture out the reference. Now I even have to explain to you what YOU write?

        I'm really tired of having to write each post twice so you can keep up. Try Hooked on Phonics:
        www.hop.com

        PS. Your analogy was WRONG, which I said before. Telling me that it is an "analogy" is very considerate, but it doesn't change the point that it's wrong. But getting you to understand something in less that 3-4-5 posts seems to be unattainable.
        Gee, you didn't even notice the 8-) ! So I just figure that, if you know that LOB is on, you must know which channel! So I asked a legitimate question! 8-) <<<NOTE THE SMILE! Turn the big screen 90 degrees clockwise if you have trouble seeing it. Clockwise is where the part of the big thing in front of your eyes is turned such that the part to your upper left is turned to your right such that it becomes the upper right. You know. Like the second hand of a clock.

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    Andie, I probably didn't say enough that time. I do agree with you that the school has the responsibility of safeguarding your child while they are in the school custody.
    I guess my feeling is that it comes down to where the school should be saying to the parent of the ones doing the bullying, your child is out of control and you need to deal with it, NOW. Of course, if the parents don't care about raising decent kids,then what?

    Honestly, going into a school nowadays is like going into a prison, you walk through metal detectors, and you have uniformed guards at the doors. From an outsider looking in perspective, it looks to me that teachers have very little power to do anything about the bad students. Such a shame.
    When I was in school it seemed the vice principlas primary job was weilding the "Board of education",which gave you an education you were not likely to forget anytime soon.

    You are right that the school is one place where the behavior can be seen and dealt with to an extent. Outside of the home and school I would think it would be much harder to pinpoint those doing it.
    The increase of the rat race and the decline of the community social structure has created an environment where bullies can thrive with no consequences.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andie
    I will add...I truly believe it is the failing of parents (aka our society) that our families are so 'disconnected' that kids are not taught how Wrong it is to be a bully, but also that no matter what the answer is not to harm yourself! I think that comes from these victims feeling so alone and unsupported they see no other 'out'.........

    all these things have disintegrated like sand on a beach as we <as society> turn away from our family units and disconnect from the people around us.

    what has happened to us that a pre-teen / teen doesn't feel that the adults in their life will protect them from the bullying and harm in their every day existence??

    i've been saying hell in a handbasket for a long time and it isn't improving

    A
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Teachers and school personnel are so hampered by classroom crowding, by restrictions, rules, regulations, and policy that they might as well just sit and watch the kids as if they WERE just babysitters.

    Every once in a while a teacher can reach a kid or two and turn things around, but with the number of students that they go through every day there's not much of a chance for them to do a lot. My sister teaches and has 60 kids. You think she has time for personal attention for every one of those kids? If problems aren't openly visible there is no way for teachers to know that a kid is in trouble. It's hard enough to tell sometimes that someone is in trouble if you are reacting one on one with them. I'm sure a bully is not going to cause problems when they KNOW someone is watching.

    What happens if a kid tells on someone? They get retaliation. They know that. Anyone who thinks that can be stopped without a problem is fooling themselves.

    About the only way a kid can be 100% sure that they aren't going to succumb to bullying is if the parents take control of the situation and teach the kid how to react, how to fight (if a bully is going to go physical, it's not safe for the other kid not to know how to defend themselves), how to maintain self-confidence, and what kind of mental issues bullies are tormented with themselves. If a kid fully understands what kind of really bad issues the bully has, it might make them less likely to be so tormented that they just give up.

    A good school program would be a few hours of mandatory classes on bullying.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Teachers and school personnel are so hampered by classroom crowding, by restrictions, rules, regulations, and policy that they might as well just sit and watch the kids as if they WERE just babysitters.<snip>
      In North America (but if the hat fits elsewhere...), schools aren't really a mechanism to teach, but as a socializing mechanism to suck the individuality out of kids and turn them into subservient economic units. Bullying by its nature punishes individuality, so bullies are just participating in the education systems' mission. If it were mainly for education, it would be much more efficient instead of taking years to teach stuff that can be taught in one year. The subservient economic unit model may have worked well in times past, but with the changing nature of the economy and massive shifting of the manufacturing base to China, each child needs to be more individualistic. Society has failed big time, and functions like a mega-bully itself punishing anyone in need, and becoming ever more autocratic. Bullies by and large are a reflection of that. And, not coincidentally, the economy is in a shambles.
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      • Profile picture of the author HeySal
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        In North America (but if the hat fits elsewhere...), schools aren't really a mechanism to teach, but as a socializing mechanism to suck the individuality out of kids and turn them into subservient economic units. Bullying by its nature punishes individuality, so bullies are just participating in the education systems' mission. If it were mainly for education, it would be much more efficient instead of taking years to teach stuff that can be taught in one year. The subservient economic unit model have worked well in times past, but with the changing nature of the economy and massive shifting of the manufacturing base to China, each child needs to be more individualistic. Society has failed big time, and functions like a mega-bully itself punishing anyone in need, and becoming ever more autocratic. Bullies by and large are a reflection of that. And, not coincidentally, the economy is in a shambles.
        I totally agree. And when I stand up for teachers - it's because they really are just other forms of victims of the system. When my sister talks of the frustrations of her job I am just very glad I never got into teaching, other than the one year after college. I don't think I'd be good at dealing with the gov nose up the butt that they deal with. Her first job was a teacher's aid and she was fired for putting a little boy in the corner for disrupting the class continually. The boy was a different color than she is so she was accused of bigotry instead of the kid's parents being told they need to put a handle on the kid no matter what freaking color he was -- he had no right to continually disturb the learning of the rest of the class.

        But you are right - Americans have become corporatized. They are consumers, inventory, and human resource, and that is all we are. There have been several societies which have gone this direction in the past and the results are always the same. Too bad once coporatized, people rarely recognize what has happened them or that anything unnatural is going on in their lives and heads.

        It's going to get a LOT worse before, and if, it gets better. If you are a parent, it's a good time to start researching and teaching your kids about peer hostility.
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  • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
    The thing that really struck me was reading how the kids laughed
    at that girl in the coffin. That indicates some severe disconnect
    with what makes a person a normal human.

    That person isn't likely to change any time soon.

    I do agree that teachers are forced to stand there with hands
    tied. But I don't agree it's 100% corporatization of the country.
    For many years, and all of us older folks have watched it happen,
    there has been the influence and direction toward people taking
    less responsibility and actually, in my mind, the encouragement
    for people to feel they are a victim of something. When you start
    viewing yourself as a victim, then that causes a mind shift - in
    general.

    But it is correct that it's only gonna get worse.

    I've seen a situation similar to this one, although it didn't end in
    suicide, just the student leaving the school. The bullying was
    pretty intense, was being perpetrated by minorities, the teachers
    were of the same race, complaints were made - nothing happened.

    There are a thousand individual situations, so we can only speak
    in generalities. But the teachers watched physical bullying in
    the classroom and did nothing. The bullying was hitting another
    student with a text book in the head. That happened more than
    once.

    If it was my child, sure... I'd be inclined to sue the teacher, school,
    school system, PTA, etc. If it bankrupted the school - fine. I don't
    care. Maybe if enough people did that, then maybe something
    positive would change.

    I don't understand why schools don't simply expell students who bully.
    They don't need to be around normal students.


    Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      <snip>the encouragement for people to feel they are a victim of something. When you start viewing yourself as a victim, then that causes a mind shift - in general. <snip>
      The problem would be *passive* victim mentality. It is possible for someone to recognize oneself to be a victim of something, but be proactive in improving circumstances instead of passively waiting to be rescued and cared for. Look at Vietnam and the Vietnamese in general. They're quite aware of how they were wronged but actually are thriving because they take care of themselves instead of asking the bully, so to speak, to care for them [though that dependence is what governments/corporations (same coin, let's face it), and other bully entities actually desire instead of strong and independent former-victims].
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      • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        instead of passively waiting to be rescued and cared for.
        Or worse, being aware that you have been victimized and not even passively
        waiting for anything - just feeling sorry for yourself and whining about it the
        rest of your life. Too many of the latter in this country, in my opiniion.

        Good and accurate distinction you made.

        though that dependence is what governments/corporations (same coin, let's face it),
        -- debatable due to a third consideration. But we cannot debate it, here.


        Ken
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        • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
          [quote=KenThompson;2704663]Quote:

          Thunderbird wrote "though that dependence is what governments/corporations (same coin, let's face it),"

          -- debatable due to a third consideration. But we cannot debate it, here.

          Ken

          I have a corporation, but it isn't one of those evil entities of which I speak. We do no evil.
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          • Profile picture of the author KenThompson
            [quote=thunderbird;2704723]
            Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

            Quote:

            We do no evil.
            I've heard that one before...


            Ken
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    • Profile picture of the author Audrey Harvey
      Originally Posted by KenThompson View Post

      The thing that really struck me was reading how the kids laughed
      at that girl in the coffin. That indicates some severe disconnect
      with what makes a person a normal human.
      Ken
      Exactly how I felt, Ken. This is a very interesting read, according to this researcher, 1 in 25 Americans are sociopaths to varying degrees, with no empathy for fellow human beings. These kids would fall into that category.

      Amazon.com: The Sociopath Next Door...Amazon.com: The Sociopath Next Door...
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  • Profile picture of the author Pauline60
    I believe that bullying is largely a parenting issue. Ok there are other issues but if you bring up your kids to respect others and their differences then they are far less likely to bully. I have always instilled into my kids that everyone is different and has different interests and talents. I have also made it abundantly clear to them that if they ever bully another child they will be dealt with severely and that it will not be tolerated.

    I have had to cope with my son enduring years of bullying simply because he is a gentle person who doesn't care for rugby but who is a talented ballet dancer. He has to hide his successes rather than celebrating them. Last year he danced with a Russian ballet company and was horrified when one of his teachers happened to attend one of the performances and recognised him.

    Thankfully the girl of his dreams, who he has been hopelessly in love with for years, is also a ballet dancer.
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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    I used the wrong word - By "corporatized" I meant that people have been consumerized. They feel that human worth is to be judged by material possessions. You buy a lot of stuff, you have value. You live in a small home and drive an old car, wear out of date clothing - you are called names, denigrated. The slip came from my own philosophy that corporatization and materialism go hand in hand.

    I worked in a crisis center and one of the hardest things to get women to understand is that the victim mentality shows enough that predators can pick them out of a crowd and will stalk them. They are vulnerable because the perpetrator can tell they won't put up a fight.

    Kids have it harder because they are afraid if they stand up for themselves they might get in trouble, and if some of them get in trouble at school, it's twice as bad when they get home. They are confused about what to do.....and then there is the fear of retaliation if they do tell someone so they can get help to figure it out. I don't think it's quite the same as a victim mentality in the way it's discussed here. I think it's more of a sense of overwhelming helplessness and isolation that is getting to these kids.

    As far as bullies? Take the damned cell phones and texters away from them and make them go outside, to camp, get them into something that requires cooperation with others. Once they get to know others that they wouldn't have otherwise done much but spit on, they lose a lot of their "gang kewl" instincts to empathy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vulk
    I'm a junior in high-school and I rarely see bullying going on. But when I do it makes me sick to my stomach..I tell them person that's picking on the kid to literally go f* them self. I'm 6`1 and I'm built so I never had to deal with getting bullied. I hate bullying it's an all time low.
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  • Profile picture of the author PeterDunin
    I believe what goes around comes around and eventually these bullies will pick on the wrong person and get a taste of their own medicine.However where this schools concerned why were there not stricter rules about bullying after the first suicide.
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    • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
      Originally Posted by PeterDunin View Post

      I believe what goes around comes around<snip>
      I used to believe that. I've seen too much injustice to continue feeling that way. In fact, I believe a lot of people are handsomely rewarded for committing acts of injustice and never have justice coming around to them, ever.

      People should be good because it is the right thing to do, not because of seeking awards or fearing punishment.
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post


        People should be good because it is the right thing to do, not because of seeking awards or fearing punishment.
        When I taught my kids to say "thank you" and "you're welcome" they would sometimes get upset when they would thank somebody, and that person wouldn't respond in kind.

        I would patiently explain that we don't thank somebody to get a "you're welcome" back from the other person; we do it because we're grateful. If they happen to say "you're welcome", then that's great, but not a requirement.

        All the best,
        Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author KimW
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        ....
        People should be good because it is the right thing to do, not because of seeking awards or fearing punishment.


        Truer words were never spoken. Sadly that idea seems to have been dropped by the last couple of generations. ( I include my generation in that statement).
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    I'll echo everything Kim and thunderbird did. and I think we are all in the same generation. Of course, it has only gotten WORSE since!

    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Michael Oksa
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      I'll echo everything Kim and thunderbird did. and I think we are all in the same generation. Of course, it has only gotten WORSE since!

      Steve
      Nah. In some ways it has gotten much better.

      ~Michael
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      • Profile picture of the author seasoned
        Originally Posted by Michael Oksa View Post

        Nah. In some ways it has gotten much better.

        ~Michael
        Can you NAME a few?

        HECK, it has gotten MORE insidious! Look at NTP, which sued RIMS! They are really nothing more than a BULLY, using the "LAW" to facilitate it. How can they be considered ANY better than bullies that shake down a kid half their size to get his/her milk money? And that action by NTP, win or lose, means EVERYONE ends up paying more and getting hurt!

        Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    This story has upset me.I read it last night, but it's still on my mind. A 14 year old girl committed suicide after being raped, then harassed and bullied. I can't imagine the horror and grief her parents feel.

    Vigil Held for Samantha Kelly
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    Project HERE.

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  • Profile picture of the author KimW
    I read a story about the same incident.
    It's both sad and terrrifying that we have raised a generation that has no consciense.(sp?)
    Signature

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    KimWinfrey.Com

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  • Profile picture of the author HorseStall
    Bullying is wrong and kids just can't get away from it, its no longer just on the recess field at school, it has crept into bedrooms through cyber bullying.
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