The spamming is out of control

by Kurt
76 replies
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The sig file link spammers are really out of control now...Maybe have it so you need 50 posts and 10 thanks before links can be added to sigs?
  • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
    answer is not really required ....

    Thank you for sharing code! This can be a great help to those who are looking to follow the blog. And of course we should also remember that whenever our opinion it must be relevant to the topic so that it will be approved by admin. Anyway, this is great! hope you can post to the technique more just like this. thank you list this blog
    Here you go Kurt, some dbag spammed one of my threads with the above garbage so I thought I'd share the wealth with ya...
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  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
    Kurt, unfortunately as this forum grows in popularity (like it's not already
    the most popular IM forum on the planet) the problem is only going to get
    worse.

    All we can do is keep reporting them and hope for the best.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

      Kurt, unfortunately as this forum grows in popularity (like it's not already
      the most popular IM forum on the planet) the problem is only going to get
      worse.

      All we can do is keep reporting them and hope for the best.
      I disagree. Eliminate the benefit and I believe we'll see a reduction in spammers. They aren't randomly picking this forum, they do it because they can get links.

      And if the problem gets worse, I probalby won't keep posting here myself. I'm tired of wasting my time wading through bogus posts.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

        I disagree. Eliminate the benefit and I believe we'll see a reduction in spammers. They aren't randomly picking this forum, they do it because they can get links.

        And if the problem gets worse, I probalby won't keep posting here myself. I'm tired of wasting my time wading through bogus posts.
        Kurt, I actually agree with you. I'm just not sure how much effect it will have
        if we keep raising the requirements. And hell, some of these spammers are
        so stupid, they spam the place with nonsense without even leaving a link or
        having a sig.

        I'm still totally befuddled as to the purpose of that, but whatever.

        Maybe I'm wrong, but I think people who are determined to game the
        system and abuse a forum will wait out any requirements if they know or
        at least think that the return will be worth it.

        Let's face it...the word on the street is simple...go to the Warrior Forum and
        make a fortune.

        Those determined enough to do just that will suffer through any requirements
        in order to reap the rewards.

        Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. Hell, I hope I am
        wrong.

        But it's not something I'd be willing to bet on.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
          Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

          And hell, some of these spammers are so stupid, they spam the place with nonsense without even leaving a link or having a sig.

          I'm still totally befuddled as to the purpose of that, but whatever.
          Because they can come back later and add a sig and all those old posts that haven't been flagged as sig spam and stuck get the sig added by default.

          It's all in the ebook. I'm guessing you didn't get your copy...:rolleyes:
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

            Because they can come back later and add a sig and all those old posts that haven't been flagged as sig spam and stuck get the sig added by default.

            It's all in the ebook. I'm guessing you didn't get your copy...:rolleyes:
            Bill, I guess I just haven't learned to think like a spammer.
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            • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

              Bill, I guess I just haven't learned to think like a spammer.
              Steven, you're giving them too much credit by using the word "think" in that sentence.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            I had another pm yesterday asking to "rent part of your sig space". Like that's gonna happen...

            I know the mods work hard to keep up with it - but the number of people joining to either spam sig links or make enough one liners to offer their WSO is ridiculous these days. Mods probably feel like they're swinging in a batting cage.

            It's a jungle in here Too many cheetahs and not enough Tarzans...
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I had another pm yesterday asking to "rent part of your sig space". Like that's gonna happen...

              I know the mods work hard to keep up with it - but the number of people joining to either spam sig links or make enough one liners to offer their WSO is ridiculous these days. Mods probably feel like they're swinging in a batting cage.

              It's a jungle in here Too many cheetahs and not enough Tarzans...
              Well, I'd volunteer to be a mod (gotta lot of time on my hands these days)
              but I think I'm the last person they'd want moderating at this forum.
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              • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                Well, I'd volunteer to be a mod (gotta lot of time on my hands these days) but I think I'm the last person they'd want moderating at this forum.
                Here's the deal...we're all mods. Duh.

                It takes just a few clicks on the report post button for a post to be removed.

                If we all just reported every "wtf?" post that was obviously posted by someone with zero posts and a sig after a while the problem won't seem so bad.

                Now, if you're wondering where I coming from with this attitude you should know that when I lived in Lost Angeles I had to remove the graffiti at least once a week from my fences and also those of the neighborhood. Nobody else would take the time. So I would do it.

                It's just a matter of perspective. I've found one click of a mouse button sure beats lugging out the rags and lacquer thinner, paint bucket and brush, and all that physical labor associated with graffiti removal.

                It's our forum, **** those douchebags.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kurt
              Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

              I had another pm yesterday asking to "rent part of your sig space". Like that's gonna happen...

              I know the mods work hard to keep up with it - but the number of people joining to either spam sig links or make enough one liners to offer their WSO is ridiculous these days. Mods probably feel like they're swinging in a batting cage.

              It's a jungle in here Too many cheetahs and not enough Tarzans...
              And this is why I believe we need some type of automated system...Maybe instead of my original suggestion, how about you have to be a War Room member before you can have a sig?
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                And this is why I believe we need some type of automated system...Maybe instead of my original suggestion, how about you have to be a War Room member before you can have a sig?
                I say we just go back to making it a paid forum with a monthly membership fee.

                The fee would have to be substantial enough to chase away the real low lives.

                Maybe $97 per month?

                I don't know...just tossing that out there.
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                • Profile picture of the author HeySal
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  I say we just go back to making it a paid forum with a monthly membership fee.

                  The fee would have to be substantial enough to chase away the real low lives.

                  Maybe $97 per month?

                  I don't know...just tossing that out there.
                  $1,200 bucks a year forum bill? It's not a freaking yacht club, Steve. We might need to avoid scum however possible, but you don't want to get rid of EVERYONE. Could you have paid that when you got here - or did it take a lot of people who could not have paid that buying your books to put you in that frame of mind?

                  People need to start, and continue to, report this stuff until the reputation of the place is "don't bother, they'll just delete you".

                  I do agree though - if the auditing software isn't going to work any more - take the sig files out for at least xx amount of posts - they'll never get there. They'll end up nuked by that time and spammers will learn real fast that this place doesn't pay to waste time with.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              The problem is definitely worse lately. There are three reasons for it, only one of which we can do anything about directly. That's a glitch that keeps the mods from pulling up a list of all of someone's posts. We use that to nuke hundreds of them at a time, and to see if someone really is posting a ton of one-liners or if it's just a few that another person noticed among a bunch of legit posts.

              The second is that the software the spammers use has been improved, and they've gone to partial machine automation and part human automation. That contributes to the third...

              Only 3 or 4 people report the stuff.


              Paul
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              • Profile picture of the author ThomM
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                The problem is definitely worse lately. There are three reasons for it, only one of which we can do anything about directly. That's a glitch that keeps the mods from pulling up a list of all of someone's posts. We use that to nuke hundreds of them at a time, and to see if someone really is posting a ton of one-liners or if it's just a few that another person noticed among a bunch of legit posts.

                The second is that the software the spammers use has been improved, and they've gone to partial machine automation and part human automation. That contributes to the third...

                Only 3 or 4 people report the stuff.


                Paul
                I've been guilty lately of not reporting stuff.
                Like I tell everyone else, "If you don't make an effort to fix a problem, you have not right to bitch about it".
                Time to follow my own advice.
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              • Profile picture of the author Kurt
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                The problem is definitely worse lately. There are three reasons for it, only one of which we can do anything about directly. That's a glitch that keeps the mods from pulling up a list of all of someone's posts. We use that to nuke hundreds of them at a time, and to see if someone really is posting a ton of one-liners or if it's just a few that another person noticed among a bunch of legit posts.

                The second is that the software the spammers use has been improved, and they've gone to partial machine automation and part human automation. That contributes to the third...

                Only 3 or 4 people report the stuff.


                Paul
                Get rid of the benefit and you'll see a drop in spammers. If you put honey on the floor, expect ants. You can swat all the ants you want, but they'll keep returning until you remove the honey.

                The spammers, including the automated ones, are looking for dofollow, anchor text links. As long as you're willing to give new members dofollow anchor text links, expect the problem to continue.
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                • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
                  Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

                  Get rid of the benefit and you'll see a drop in spammers. If you put honey on the floor, expect ants. You can swat all the ants you want, but they'll keep returning until you remove the honey.

                  The spammers, including the automated ones, are looking for dofollow, anchor text links. As long as you're willing to give new members dofollow anchor text links, expect the problem to continue.
                  Why don't we (the admins, actually) just require a War Room membership in order to have a sig file. That way the bar gets raised and I'm thinking that would scrub a lot of the offenders out before they even start.

                  And they do ban War Room members for bad behavior and remove sig file privileges, as well.

                  Ah, justice...
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              • Profile picture of the author waterotter
                Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                The problem is definitely worse lately. There are three reasons for it, only one of which we can do anything about directly. That's a glitch that keeps the mods from pulling up a list of all of someone's posts. We use that to nuke hundreds of them at a time, and to see if someone really is posting a ton of one-liners or if it's just a few that another person noticed among a bunch of legit posts.

                The second is that the software the spammers use has been improved, and they've gone to partial machine automation and part human automation. That contributes to the third...

                Only 3 or 4 people report the stuff.


                Paul

                With all due respect Paul, there must be glitch in the reporting process. I know at least six people who are reporting the this crap on a regular basis.
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Jody,
                  With all due respect Paul
                  What am I, a general now?
                  there must be glitch in the reporting process. I know at least six people who are reporting the this crap on a regular basis.
                  I can't think of more than 4 who I see doing it. Maybe some of the others you know of hit the board at times I'm not usually online.

                  Even at 6, that's a tiny, tiny fraction of the membership.


                  Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomM
    Works for me.
    What I find amusing is the posts or comments they use when they do that.
    Say I was searching for a virtual assistant and my search led me here.
    Would I really want to hire someone who replied to a thread about homeless people having pets by saying I agree?
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    The sig file link spammers are really out of control now...Maybe have it so you need 50 posts and 10 thanks before links can be added to sigs?
    Kurt, I just sent an pm to another warrior last week saying the same thing. Lots of Warriors are threatening to pull out if they don't clean up the place. Can't say as I blame them.

    I used to send pm's to new posters with the link regarding sig files, but I'm getting tired of doing that - it's a full time job.
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  • Profile picture of the author TLTheLiberator
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    The sig file link spammers are really out of control now...Maybe have it so you need 50 posts and 10 thanks before links can be added to sigs?
    Is this spam Kurt?


    Is there a term for this?? ( thread jumping perhaps? )

    I respectfully ask you to remove Wilt's name from consideration of the greatest NBA player ever.

    Big deal he had one good game against Kareem - he has only 1 ring and rings do matter.

    I'm sure you remember when Kareem regularly served Wilt royally and even dunked backwards on Wilt.

    Sure Wilt was one of the greats but I do protest.


    Respectfully,

    TL
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
    Get rid of the benefit and you'll see a drop in spammers.
    Right. And let's take it away from the legitimate members while we're at it. An excellent idea...

    We're working on the search glitch. Getting that fixed will help, but it may require re-indexing the entire forum. Think about what kind of server load that will create. We'll be 3 days answering "Why couldn't I log in for hours?"

    Even with that fixed, if you don't report them, they're going to wait until a moderator sees the stuff. We can't read every thread.

    I'm going to say this to the world in general, and anyone who thinks it fits them can take it to heart. Anyone else can ignore it...

    I am sick to death of people asking that things be taken away from newer members than themselves in order to avoid helping with the process of moderating the board. Especially when the suggestions won't stop the spammers.

    Did you see where someone offered to buy part of Kay's sig file space? How long do you think it would be before the "SEO" crowd figured out they could just hire someone to work an account up to the minimum (or paid for War Room membership) and leased those link spaces out?

    That's only one of a number of approaches they could use.


    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Right. And let's take it away from the legitimate members while we're at it. An excellent idea...

      We're working on the search glitch. Getting that fixed will help, but it may require re-indexing the entire forum. Think about what kind of server load that will create. We'll be 3 days answering "Why couldn't I log in for hours?"

      Even with that fixed, if you don't report them, they're going to wait until a moderator sees the stuff. We can't read every thread.

      I'm going to say this to the world in general, and anyone who thinks it fits them can take it to heart. Anyone else can ignore it...

      I am sick to death of people asking that things be taken away from newer members than themselves in order to avoid helping with the process of moderating the board. Especially when the suggestions won't stop the spammers.

      Did you see where someone offered to buy part of Kay's sig file space? How long do you think it would be before the "SEO" crowd figured out they could just hire someone to work an account up to the minimum (or paid for War Room membership) and leased those link spaces out?

      That's only one of a number of approaches they could use.


      Paul
      Paul, then why don't we just make it equal for everybody regardless of
      how long they've been here.

      Paid Forum - ($97 per month or whatever)
      No sig links for first 30 days ((yes, I'll remove mine for first 30 days)

      Abuse of forum spam rules comes with immediate dismissal (no refund on
      that month's membership payment)

      It may not eliminate the problem but it will greatly reduce it, at least IMHO
      I think it will.
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Steven,

        You are not proposing this seriously, are you? If so, you really have no clue what this group has been about since the beginning.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

          Steven,

          You are not proposing this seriously, are you? If so, you really have no clue what this group has been about since the beginning.


          Paul
          Paul, I do understand what the group is about. I'm simply proposing what I
          see as the only logical solution to what appears to be an unmanageable
          problem.

          Do I like the solution? Of course not. Will any of the old time members like it?
          Of course not.

          Will it reduce the spam?

          Well, if it doesn't, then there are a lot of people out there with money to
          throw away.

          If I were a spammer, I'd never even consider joining this forum with those
          conditions. And I am not against spending money on my business.

          Anyway, it was not my intention to upset anybody with my suggestion. It
          was just my feeble way of trying to come up with a solution to a problem
          that I don't see any viable solution to that's going to make a significant
          impact.

          Certainly if such a solution existed, wouldn't the extremely bright marketers
          who attend this place (I am not including myself in that group, obviously)
          have already thought of it?

          But yes, I do understand the spirit of this forum, why it was made and why
          the ease of entry into it is what it is.

          But you pay a price for that...do you not?
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      • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Paul, then why don't we just make it equal for everybody regardless of
        how long they've been here.

        Paid Forum - ($97 per month or whatever)
        No sig links for first 30 days ((yes, I'll remove mine for first 30 days)

        Abuse of forum spam rules comes with immediate dismissal (no refund on
        that month's membership payment)

        It may not eliminate the problem but it will greatly reduce it, at least IMHO
        I think it will.

        sorry, Steven, I've already happily paid for a War-room membership and to have to pay $97 monthly to be a member of this forum is not something I'd be willing to do. I'm sure there are other warriors who feel the same way. I'd rather spend my money on advertising.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by waterotter View Post

      With all due respect Paul, there must be glitch in the reporting process. I know at least six people who are reporting the this crap on a regular basis.
      There are likely even more but unfortunately, we're not all reporting the same things which is less effective. Can't be helped - with the number of threads and sheer size of the forum, that's not going to change.

      We need more than half a dozen or even the maybe 2 dozen that regularly report stuff. None of us are scanning the boards 24/7. We can't see all the crap any more than the official mods can.

      Then you've got the "iffy" stuff. I think it's rented signatures, you think it's a legit post and Steve gives the benefit of the doubt... see what I mean?

      I think it might help to add a bit more legislation to the signature files but not sure anyone would go for it. One thing I've seen that aggravates me to no end and almost always appears to be siggie spam, is the ones who put the SAME link into their signature 5 times or more. Sometimes they use different anchor text; sometimes the same.

      For that last one, I believe that's taking advantage of the forum by far too much and I don't care if you're new or old - shouldn't be doing that. JMO.

      Another that's usually obvious is the paid SEO posters. They'll have multiple signatures, generally unrelated sites/niches and they don't always post just one-liners. This type tends to post a lot of very, very obvious newbie questions and/or spin replies from earlier in the thread.

      Stop waiting for proof of wrongdoing to report something. If it smells fishy, hit the triangle. I doubt very much that the mods are going to yell at you for reporting too much, unless you're clearly malicious about it.

      I add commentary to my reports quite often. If I've gone back in that person's profile and seen a pattern, I note that when I report, for example. I figure it tells the mods right where to look so I'm hoping that it saves them a bit of time, plus sometimes it's not that one post that is an issue but the overall pattern.

      Okay, ended up writing a short report here so I'll stop rambling now
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

        If it smells fishy, hit the triangle. I doubt very much that the mods are going to yell at you for reporting too much, unless you're clearly malicious about it.
        This is true.
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          Paul -

          The current forum glitch has kept me from reporting some things recently. I often look at the posting history to avoid drawing a wrong conclusion about someone's posts. Lately, often can't do that.

          I think it's a balance we have to maintain here. When the link scammers and total idiots are the majority posters, we're out of balance. When it happens, we scream "do something" even when we may not be doing our part.

          kay
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          • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            Paul -

            The current forum glitch has kept me from reporting some things recently. I often look at the posting history to avoid drawing a wrong conclusion about someone's posts. Lately, often can't do that.

            I think it's a balance we have to maintain here. When the link scammers and total idiots are the majority posters, we're out of balance. When it happens, we scream "do something" even when we may not be doing our part.

            kay
            Is there some special way to do this that I wasn't aware of? I can click on someone's name and see the rest of their posts. Or is the glitch only affecting some?
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Tina -

              It may have been fixed as it's working for me now. It's been hit or miss for several days.

              John -

              The simple truth is many people think the "of the day" in the title is an award given by the forum. They don't know you have to have WarriorPro or who is making the decision or how the decision is made. To newbies, that designation is a recommendation to buy - so it does pump the numbers.

              kay
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      I am sick to death of people asking that things be taken away from newer members than themselves in order to avoid helping with the process of moderating the board. Especially when the suggestions won't stop the spammers.

      How long do you think it would be before the "SEO" crowd figured out they could just hire someone to work an account up to the minimum (or paid for War Room membership) and leased those link spaces out?
      Paul,

      At the risk of you tossing your lunch and getting angry at me I think there is a difference between someone who contributes exactly NOTHING to this forum and someone who has at least PAID to have the privilege of using a sig file. A monitary contribution will at least offset the server costs of their activity. That's why I have no problem with a WR membership for those folks that want the benefits of using a sig file.

      And I am also aware that I know squat about what happens behind the scenes here and don't for a minute pretend to have any of the answers.

      And I am also grateful to the few folks that do spend the time to report these offensive spam posts because without their help this place would really turn into a jungle.

      I'm done...
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    • Profile picture of the author Kurt
      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      Right. And let's take it away from the legitimate members while we're at it. An excellent idea...

      We're working on the search glitch. Getting that fixed will help, but it may require re-indexing the entire forum. Think about what kind of server load that will create. We'll be 3 days answering "Why couldn't I log in for hours?"

      Even with that fixed, if you don't report them, they're going to wait until a moderator sees the stuff. We can't read every thread.

      I'm going to say this to the world in general, and anyone who thinks it fits them can take it to heart. Anyone else can ignore it...

      I am sick to death of people asking that things be taken away from newer members than themselves in order to avoid helping with the process of moderating the board. Especially when the suggestions won't stop the spammers.

      Did you see where someone offered to buy part of Kay's sig file space? How long do you think it would be before the "SEO" crowd figured out they could just hire someone to work an account up to the minimum (or paid for War Room membership) and leased those link spaces out?

      That's only one of a number of approaches they could use.


      Paul
      If you don't change, you'll lose legitimate participants also. Hint hint.

      What were the ACTUAL results of them offering to buy Kay's sig space? You really think buying sigs from established members is a viable business plan? So we report only those that spam for posting and do not report them for offering to buy sig space?

      And even if they continue to try, what does that have to do with stopping the thread spammers? Two totally different issues needing two totally different solutions. But a good example of a red herring, none the less, as I'm not concerned about sig space as that doesn't manufacture fake posts/content that wastes my time. Buying sig space is your problem, not mine.

      Sure, the linkers would get some benefit they don't "deserve", but that won't make me click on threads thinking there's a legit response of interest to me, or having to wade through BS posts on a thread to find the legit ones.

      Plus, offering to pay raises the barrier to entry. There will be far fewer people willing to pay for account maturing than are willing to spam for free. This is simple economics 101.

      New members used to be able to post WSOs. Now they have to qualify...What is it, 50 posts or War Room membership...Are you against this limitation on new members too? What't the difference between having to qualify for a WSO and having to qualify for a sig, in the context of "fairness"?

      Another flaw in your reasoning is taking the position that I said my suggestions will stop all spam or be a failure. As I posted, it will reduce spam, not end it. You aren't going to stop SEOers from hiring people to build accounts the way things are now either, so what's your point?

      Can you also let me know how adding a nofollow to a new member's sig links until a certain criteria is met would hurt them?

      We're doing it your way now...It isn't working. Facts are Paul, you and I don't know what would happen if some things were changed and it's pure speculation. I do know one thing though, any code that can be added can be removed if it doesn't work. A simple case of risk vs. gain.
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    LMAO Paul!

    ...and here they are tellin' me they report them everyday. Time to kick butt I guess but I might have to enlist KJ's help!
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  • Profile picture of the author UberWarrior
    As a newer Warrior I have to say that I almost exclusively rely on the WSO of the day as a filter (bravo for that affiliate) and am discouraged as well when I need a quick answer to a question to solve a problem knowing that members will have to wade through the "Crap" to read the question much less answer my questions.

    As a consumer there must be a better way to control the info - some of which could not even be considered content by any stretch of the imagination!
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      I almost exclusively rely on the WSO of the day as a filter
      Don't. It's no more reliable for that purpose, as far as I can tell, than reading the reviews of the product.

      Keep in mind, also, that WSOTD has no official connection with this forum, and is NOT an endorsement by "the forum" or Allen.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Steven,
        Certainly if such a solution existed, wouldn't the extremely bright marketers who attend this place (I am not including myself in that group, obviously) have already thought of it?
        Not likely. Very few of them understand what's involved in maintaining the balance in this forum. And yes, it's different from most other forums.
        But you pay a price for that...do you not?
        Yes, and there are benefits that come with it as well. What you're suggesting is something entirely different. A whole other kind of entity.


        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Kurt,
          If you don't change, you'll lose legitimate participants also. Hint hint.
          [sigh] Why do I bother trying to discuss this stuff?

          Here's a way to put an end to sig spam entirely: You need at least 5,000 posts and 5,000 thank you's. Hey... If we're going to raise the bar, why not raise it really high?

          I'm sick of raising the bar on new folks to deal with the scumbags. Is that especially difficult for you to comprehend, sir?

          How's this one for you: Most of the "raising the bar" that's been done in the past has had, at best, mixed success. A lot of it has just created new problems, which I predicted when the various "solutions" were proposed.

          We'll get the search function fixed, and that will help. A lot more than you think. Maybe a few more people will report the sig spammers. That would be cool. Hell, maybe you'll even join in. Doesn't take a lot of work or time.
          It isn't working. Facts are Paul
          Yeah. I stated the actual "facts." The problem got bad when the "Find all posts by" function started glitching, and it will get a lot better when it's fixed.

          That's a temporary problem. If you want to let that be your reason for a decision, feel free. I'm done arguing about this stuff.


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
            John,

            We take the long view. Do what's best for the members, and Allen's income benefits as a side-effect of that.

            Back to general comments...

            There is nothing - nothing - that everyone will agree with. If we delete a post that's critical of a WSO for reasons that fit the rules, we're accused of "assisting scammers." If we don't delete them when they don't break the rules, we're accused of abusing the sellers and trying to get them to create separate threads to squeak more cash out of them. (Yes, really. I was accused of that one today, in fact, when a paying customer posted a negative review, and the seller went off on a paranoid rant when I refused to nuke it.)

            If we took Steven's suggestion, there would be so few members left that it wouldn't be worth the membership fee. That's such an obvious outcome I can't imagine anyone not seeing it.

            If we do what Kurt suggests, we lose tens of thousands of members in the long term to keep a much smaller number who don't get that it's a temporary problem with a technical fix.

            There will always be people who hate, who act for the sole purpose of being destructive. The fact that we can't stop them in advance is the excuse other people need to hate. This has never changed, just gotten larger as an absolute number (but about the same as a percentage) as the place has grown.

            I've had to explain to 3 separate people today already that a WSO that can be damaged by someone mentioning a single resource from it is probably not worth buying anyway. One of them flipped out because someone asked about a single process out of a complicated system, claiming the guy was ruining his sales.

            How many times, and in how many places, are we supposed to raise the bar? How much do we take from the folks who aren't established yet to make things convenient for those who are?


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author High Horsepower
              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


              I've had to explain to 3 separate people today already that a WSO that can be damaged by someone mentioning a single resource from it is probably not worth buying anyway.

              One of them flipped out because someone asked about a single process out of a complicated system, claiming the guy was ruining his sales.

              Paul
              I've read this entire thread and I'm not sure I understand Sig Spamming :confused:

              In regards to WSO's I will say this, In many cases I can Reverse Engineer a WSO after several pages of reviews have posted. Yes, I'm guilty of that. I hate asking for refunds so I'd rather try and figure out if I really want to purchase this product.

              Many times I've read through a WSO and I say to myself "why is the OP allowing this type of talk to continue"? Sometimes 90%+ is given away if you simply read the post. If I did a WSO I'd be reporting anything that effected my hard work and money invested.

              It also ticks me off when I have to scroll half way down the page to see reviews because all these morons keep asking for a FREE review copy when it's against the WSO rules than Allen set.

              I think "Blind Copy" for WSO's should be banned, at least give us some friggin idea what is involved for Petes sake".

              BTW, this glitch that is talked about, is this why I can't search my own post? Sometimes I want to find a thread I posted in and I can't find my own postings. Very aggravating. I've tried to search other members postings when they are selling a WSO and very little to research. Makes it hard to purchase if I don't have some perspective on the person.

              I'm sure the mods have their work cut out, the other day I was searching the WSO section and there were nearly 3,000 visitors and only 500 in the main forum, WOWZA. WF must be getting very popular.
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              • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
                [DELETED]
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  BTW, this glitch that is talked about, is this why I can't search my own post? Sometimes I want to find a thread I posted in and I can't find my own postings. Very aggravating. I've tried to search other members postings when they are selling a WSO and very little to research. Makes it hard to purchase if I don't have some perspective on the person.
                  Yep. The glitch I mentioned is the reason for that problem. It's a high priority fix, I assure you.
                  Many times I've read through a WSO and I say to myself "why is the OP allowing this type of talk to continue"?
                  WSO sellers don't get to moderate their own threads. That would pretty much guarantee most of them would delete any review that wasn't completely positive, which defeats the user feedback system.
                  I've read this entire thread and I'm not sure I understand Sig Spamming
                  Essentially, it's a by-product of the SEO industry, one of the most destructive industries online, as a whole, since the invention of email spam.

                  Backlinks add to your rank in search engines. So, site owners and their henchmen (SEO specialists) use many techniques to get links from other sites. These can include links in forum profiles and signature files in forum posts.

                  Many of the nonsense posts you see that are short and have links in the sig files are the result of these creatures. Posts which are made solely to get the exposure for those links are called sig spam.

                  Note: There are ways to do search engine optimization that are actually beneficial and constructive. We see very little of that in forums. The majority of what we see in this context are spammers, pure and simple. Destructive parasites who should be wiped off the Net.


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                  • Profile picture of the author High Horsepower
                    Thanks Paul. In reference to the WSO comments, I understand you can not moderate your own comments, but some members blatantly post information that is significant to the WSO. If I had a WSO I would report these comments to the Moderators and asked to have these removed.

                    I think its very unfair to the seller to have people posting information that's relevant to the WSO. Many times I've saved $17 or more simply because of people giving so many pieces of the puzzle that I can take it from there.
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                    Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Sir Winston Churchill, Speech, 1941, Harrow School

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          • Profile picture of the author Kurt
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Kurt,[sigh] Why do I bother trying to discuss this stuff?

            Here's a way to put an end to sig spam entirely: You need at least 5,000 posts and 5,000 thank you's. Hey... If we're going to raise the bar, why not raise it really high?

            I'm sick of raising the bar on new folks to deal with the scumbags. Is that especially difficult for you to comprehend, sir?

            How's this one for you: Most of the "raising the bar" that's been done in the past has had, at best, mixed success. A lot of it has just created new problems, which I predicted when the various "solutions" were proposed.

            We'll get the search function fixed, and that will help. A lot more than you think. Maybe a few more people will report the sig spammers. That would be cool. Hell, maybe you'll even join in. Doesn't take a lot of work or time.Yeah. I stated the actual "facts." The problem got bad when the "Find all posts by" function started glitching, and it will get a lot better when it's fixed.

            That's a temporary problem. If you want to let that be your reason for a decision, feel free. I'm done arguing about this stuff.


            Paul
            No Paul,

            What's hard for me to understand, Sir, is the lack of logical consistency. I have a feeling it has more to do with a defensive emotional reaction to having suggestions given, than any real logic.

            Here's the facts I'm basing my opinion on...This forum already has limits on:
            Placing a WSO
            Sending PMs
            Adding links in posts

            Sorry, but I don't see it as a big leap in logic that if a person can't post a link in their posts, they can't post them in their sigs, until they earn the privilege.

            If people need to qualify to sell through a WSO, I also don't see it as a stretch that they also need to qualify to sell through their sig.

            Not to mention, if War Room membership was a requirement for having a sig, maybe that would create more profit for Allen. It sure wouldn't hurt his bottom line.

            You know, I just joined another forum on an unrelated topic a few days ago. They have newbie criteria I have to meet before I get access to certain forums and features. Funny, I thought this was totally fair. I guess newbies on this forum are totally different.

            If having a sig is a big motivation for a newb to join, maybe they shouldn't join?
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Kurt,
              What's hard for me to understand, Sir, is the lack of logical consistency. I have a feeling it has more to do with a defensive emotional reaction to having suggestions given, than any real logic.
              All this time, and you don't know me any better than that?

              Screw it. You're convinced, so logic isn't going to get through.


              Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Don't. It's no more reliable for that purpose, as far as I can tell, than reading the reviews of the product.

        Keep in mind, also, that WSOTD has no official connection with this forum, and is NOT an endorsement by "the forum" or Allen.


        Paul
        In response to the post Paul is responding to here...

        WSO of the day is chosen by NUMBERS for the most part, even though Lantz wont release it unless he thinks its solid info... I determined that by pumping an extra newsletter to my wso DELIBERATELY to see if the conversion rate would go crazy and alert Lantz, and it DID!

        If three reports are showing great numbers he picks the one that gives the most benefit to readers... It would be clueless to think they are chosen otherwise. We are marketers.

        You can release a wso and send a mailing list of 100k members to it and make it convert at 30% for an entire day... Then your numbers look good enough to be wso of the day and its a wise choice for lantz to JV with you.

        Make sense?

        I just started doing this months ago... but its common business sense. Just online.

        Still I know for a fact that he wont release "crap"... no matter how it converts, but if you have a good product... , that being a given, WSO of the day is chosen by numbers (This is not confirmed fact, just what I have gathered after having gotten that distinction twice now and doing it the second time DELIBERATELY) ... if you were Mike Lantz that would be the most brilliant part of it! I think its brilliant.

        Also the fact that it converted well enough to be WSO of the day says that person has loyal customers soo, that in itself speaks volumes.

        However I saw a guy who never did IM till 2010... and he has had wso of the day 6 times... Its about pumping numbers.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
      Originally Posted by UberWarrior View Post

      As a newer Warrior I have to say that I almost exclusively rely on the WSO of the day as a filter (bravo for that affiliate) and am discouraged as well when I need a quick answer to a question to solve a problem knowing that members will have to wade through the "Crap" to read the question much less answer my questions.

      As a consumer there must be a better way to control the info - some of which could not even be considered content by any stretch of the imagination!
      According to your stats, all of your posts until this one are in the WSO section so it doesn't appear that you are even trying to ask questions? But you've obviously caught on to the SEO benefits of the forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    @ Tina - I'm with you 100%. If something is questionable, I let the mods decide.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Its not the newby spammers that bug me, its the old pro haters, that attack your thread from 3 different user names with 71 posts apeice or something..., and they have been around enough to be GOOD at attacking you and posing as a newb with innocent questions... Im getting better at seeing that coming though. The only way to overcome is to make them look like the useless tool , no real business experience idiots that they are for doing that. You already know they are too dumb to beat you just by their unethical approach. They couldnt find a way to do it legit and smart, and their respinses are STUPID and uneducated usually, but they KNOW it still plants a seed of doubt, even though they were disproven.

    They are more irritating than anything, like a lap dog that wont shut up and is just begging to be punted. Still they can wear you out and yes even HARM you.

    What does Paul Call these? He has a name for every type.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by John Durham View Post

      Its not the newby spammers that bug me, its the old pro haters, that attack your thread from 3 different user names, and they have been around enough to be GOOD at it.
      :confused:

      If you're aware of this why not bust the bozos?
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      • Profile picture of the author John Durham
        Originally Posted by Bill Farnham View Post

        :confused:

        If you're aware of this why not bust the bozos?
        Because you never know for sure... or can prove it. They are good, and also because outing someone on a WSO thread, even if you are right can cause damage to the campaign... Learned that the hard way recently.

        Plus , when they know the rules then they know how to skate right up to the edges without going over. I got the SH** whipped outta me on my last WSO and no one stopped it, because "Technically" there was no harm done...

        I wouldnt agree though, because I havent bumped it since, so that cost Allan about $250 in bumps (So far. Probably $2000 over the course of a year)... and it cost Mike Lantz THOUSANDS in sales, when I engaged back and stood my ground, instead of not defending... Of course it would have cost more if I hadnt and I had let that go on without an argument.

        I feel that if I were personally a mod, and I saw harm coming toward Allan Says income. I would nip it in the bud that moment. I bann people at my forum for asking for refunds on threads that others have spent weeks working to launch and planting bad seeds... or suggesting that others should refund in public.

        Its bad etiquette and bad form, such things should be handled discretely and with nobility and consideration. Trying to ruin others hard work publicly instead of asking for a refund privately cant be construed as anything but malicious. I doesnt take much to see when someone is being that, even by the rules.

        JMO
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  • Profile picture of the author waterotter
    What about banning everyone for a period of time who has violated the rules. Many don't want to read the rules when joining. Instead of just getting a slap on the wrist and their sig file removed etc, why not a lengthy ban?

    If and when they come back, they may have a little more respect for the forum. It won't take long for word to get out that the forum doesn't put up with this crap.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    Paul,

    Some people are all about the "Hierarchy" mentality, and need to feel like others are less deserving in order to feel a sense of self appreciation. Even get others to confirm to them that they are the hierarcht by posting things that plant those seeds... "We are" and "They Are".... Creating sides...

    Raising the bar on OLD PROS is what needs to happen. They arent communicating to the newbs, just selling them SH** using terminology thats above their heads. WF to me is ALL ABOUT the newbs.
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  • Profile picture of the author John Durham
    On another note, to state that I understand... getting slammed a few times can also make you overly defensive, and in some cases even justifiably... and I have been guilty of that as well at times...so I guess you just take the good with the bad.

    It just sucks when its bad. lol
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    Let me add one more point...Why was there a limit imposed on sending PMs and newbs need 50 posts before they can?

    Wasn't it to limit automated PM spam?

    Seems to me, it worked.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sunfyre7896
    I will say from personal experience that some newbies to forum posting don't realize about the signature first off. I got banned for six months from a forum for posting a link within this body text. I just didn't know any better because I was brand new. As for just spamming once you know better with your signature links is just ridiculous. Some forums have a place for commercial type ads, but that is a particular space and not to be used in every single thread. The worst for me is when they have really bad grammar, because unlike clear cut ads you can just skip, some people's grammar is so bad that I have to literally read it over and over and over to try to get the gist of it. This wastes so much of my time trying to discern whether it's spam or not. Some of the ways that I've seen from you guys to clean this up are great, while others are out of control. There really isn't a unified way other than to just have a decent limit of initial posts so that people can get a feel for what posting is supposed to be about and to trust in the moderators and other warriors to report the spammers. This is all imo of course.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bill Farnham
      Originally Posted by Sunfyre7896 View Post

      The worst for me is when they have really bad grammar...
      The worst for me is when folks don't know where to find the "enter" key so they can create paragraphs that make for easy reading.

      But that's just me...


      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

      You're convinced, so logic isn't going to get through.
      Paul,

      Logic has never once won a debate or an arguement.
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  • Profile picture of the author Roaddog
    I have suggested this before...something along the lines of what Kurt said.

    Have a limited part of the forum where new people have to take a test on the rules before joining the main forum. One week two weeks whatever.

    I am in no way trying to presume what it takes to run this forum.

    I am not looking for an argument or anything like that...running this forum as big as it is and might I say for the most part done very well.

    It is merely a suggestion and is my opinion of course...same way almost everything is someones opinion.


    My name is Jim and I approved this opinion...
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    • Profile picture of the author John Durham
      All of these things serve the purpose of smaller agendas and goals of small groups of members... but we dont see the OVERALL goal and agenda of the forum itself and how our minor irritations are the cost of the MAJOR agenda of the forum... Which I have no clue about... I just have my minor agendas within the big one... as Paul has enlightened. I can see that having the TMF and all.
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  • Profile picture of the author Floyd Fisher
    Just reported 3 more of them.

    Is there any way we could just IP ban these miscreants? Not just a ban on their accounts, a ban on the IP or IP's they are using to post here.

    Would cut down on the clutter quite nicely.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Just reported 3 more of them.

      Is there any way we could just IP ban these miscreants? Not just a ban on their accounts, a ban on the IP or IP's they are using to post here.

      Would cut down on the clutter quite nicely.
      Floyd, with proxies they'd just find another IP range. I've tried doing this
      with my sales refunders and it's futile.

      People intent on finding a way around the system will do so.
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    • Profile picture of the author William Prawira
      About this Sig Spam, I'm also guilty for it, you see, couple days back, I set up a sig with an affiliate link on it.

      So I learn it the hard way. I'm not sure about this, but since I joined this forum couple months back, I've been trying to look for forum rules. I tried finding them using the search forum, none pops up. Perhaps this rules should be put somewhere visible to us, and eye catching (please hit me on the head if the rules are visible and I'm the only one not noticing?

      In my most humble opinion, I'd like to suggest adding more mods. The forum is expanding exponentially. I did a little count 6000 new user in 2 weeks. Guess how many of it are spammer and multi IDs? Perhaps the number of mods now are not enough to fight off the spam?

      Originally Posted by Floyd Fisher View Post

      Just reported 3 more of them.

      Is there any way we could just IP ban these miscreants? Not just a ban on their accounts, a ban on the IP or IP's they are using to post here.

      Would cut down on the clutter quite nicely.
      Banning IP is going to be hard...I just happen to be a newbie in this forum couple months ago, and in the process, I've access to at least 20 IP address outside my country(using VPN), in addition to that, my ISP is a dynamic IP. Any time I need a new IP address, just need to disconnect and reconnect.
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      William Prawira

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  • Profile picture of the author HeySal
    Oh jeez - just post any relevant details about where the spammer lives right under the spam post and let dangerously unbalanced members have fun going to pay a visit to them. That's the REAL answer. :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author Thomas Wilkinson
      Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

      Oh jeez - just post any relevant details about where the spammer lives right under the spam post and let dangerously unbalanced members have fun going to pay a visit to them. That's the REAL answer. :rolleyes:
      We have dangerously unbalanced members here? Who Knew?

      Thomas
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        I think its very unfair to the seller to have people posting information that's relevant to the WSO. Many times I've saved $17 or more simply because of people giving so many pieces of the puzzle that I can take it from there.
        I know what you mean - but honestly. If a WSO is so simple that a few comments give away the store....is it worth $17 in the first place? Just sayin...
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        We have dangerously unbalanced members here? Who Knew?
        /me waves (energetically. with both hands.)
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  • Profile picture of the author PatrickP
    I never read a sig until I saw this thread.

    Actually never noticed sigs til this thread.
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    • Profile picture of the author kimberly Aita
      Originally Posted by PatrickP View Post

      I never read a sig until I saw this thread.

      Actually never noticed sigs til this thread.
      Sorry, I laughed out loud at this and just had to say so :p
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  • Profile picture of the author kimberly Aita
    I am feeling kind of bad now but I didn't realize we were supposed to report all spam posts. I can't say I see a lot of them but I have seen quite a few and then I just get po'd and leave an unkind remark to the ahole... ugh...

    I just saw one that was something like "I didn't even read your sales page but why don't you answer me" maybe not exactly but I was just wishing I could slap that person. and I did lay into them although that may not have actually been spam.

    Anyway, I do see a lot of those little 2 word things and it irritates me but up until I read this I was unaware of my responsibility. I will report them from now on.

    I am so glad Paul does not agree with $97 month membership because I hang out here more than facebook with my family and I would have to leave (which would probably save me a ton of money, since I have the wso itus disease) and I really like just checking in to see what's going on.

    Oh well, that's just my thoughts. Spread the word some how because I have been here for quite a while now (not active since 2008 but over a year now I think) and I didn't know. Just sayin'

    Thanks for being here and being free!!
    Kim

    Oh and my sig isn't for links and I thought you only get credit for one or two links from any one site anyway? I know sometimes for some stupid reason I check my firefox seo and am shocked I have so many links and then I check and it's like oh yeah wf... they don't really count anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Certain forums do have some very strict requirements, even after 50 posts, there is an interim period, and then some more
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  • Profile picture of the author serena85
    In my opinion as a newbie I will not pay 97 dollars to be part of something that I can not test or at least get a free period probing. Why pay 97 dollars on your advices of how to make this and that if I am not 100% sure that this and that will work. I would rather pay someone with those 97 bucks to do what I am trying to find out will I am on this forums.
    Signature

    A way to promote a blog is to submit blog to BlogsAvenue.Com and another site for blog submission is BlogrollCenter.Com.

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  • Profile picture of the author Henry White
    Originally Posted by Kurt View Post

    The sig file link spammers are really out of control now...Maybe have it so you need 50 posts and 10 thanks before links can be added to sigs?
    I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but spammers are not above hacking into databases to retrieve e-mail addresses or paying someone who's already been there, done that. The sad part is, I have a very short list of IM opt-ins I suspect of either being victims of a hack, and an even shorter list I suspect may have sold my e-mail after I unsubscribed; they impress me as just the type to rationalize that the privacy agreement no longer applies in that case.
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