Breaking News! 27 dead in school shooting 20 children 7 adults and the shooter.

13 years ago

That's horrible. :T

What's with the sudden influx of random gun attacks in public places? It started with the midnight showing of the new Batman movie, now not just midnight showing but random people showing up at malls & then this...

Was the shooter an adult or a child? The article didn't specify.

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Michael Mayo

13 years ago

The shooter was an adult.

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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

I've been following this story all morning. I am sick over it. My eldest is a first grader in elementary school and this hits home hard for me. I am having to restrain myself not to go and pick him up right now

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jimbo13 13 years ago

Parents worst nightmare.

Sad state of affairs.

Dan
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Robert Michael

13 years ago

I've been in so many arguments regarding "gun control" this morning over this, I can't even count them all.. but I stand by my opinion.

If legal CWP holders were allowed to bring their weapon inside, I have NO doubt that this could have been prevented. This type of thing ALWAYS happens at so-called "gun-free zones"

This is truly disgusting. I hope they catch the 2nd shooter and make his ass FRY.

Lethal injection isn't enough. They need to give him the electric chair, and broadcast it nationwide. If that is what it takes to let these wackos know that we are NOT going to tolerate this, then so be it.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

I've been in so many arguments regarding "gun control" this morning over this, I can't even count them all.. but I stand by my opinion.

If legal CWP holders were allowed to bring their weapon inside, I have NO doubt that this could have been prevented. This type of thing ALWAYS happens at so-called "gun-free zones"

This is truly disgusting. I hope they catch the 2nd shooter and make his ass FRY.

Lethal injection isn't enough. They need to give him the electric chair, and broadcast it nationwide. If that is what it takes to let these wackos know that we are NOT going to tolerate this, then so be it.

I couldn't agree more. Violent crime increases wherever they are not permitted to have their weapons. If every teacher in that school was armed - that shooter may have only gotten to one or two.....maybe not that far.

They needed a person with a gun in China, too, today (yesterday?) to stop that guy that was running around stabbing students. 22 of em.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

I couldn't agree more. Violent crime increases wherever they are not permitted to have their weapons. If every teacher in that school was armed - that shooter may have only gotten to one or two.....maybe not that far.

They needed a person with a gun in China, too, today (yesterday?) to stop that guy that was running around stabbing students. 22 of em.

The next thing you know, some whacked out, laid off teacher goes ape shit and starts blasting his colleagues, pupils and superiors away. Now that would make for a great headline, wouldn't it?

New law permitting school teachers to carry firearms backfires. 17 dead at Detroit high school massacre!

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MissTerraK

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

The next thing you know, some whacked out, laid off teacher goes ape shit and starts blasting his colleagues, pupils and superiors away. Now that would make for a great headline, wouldn't it?

New law permitting school teachers to carry firearms backfires. 17 dead at Detroit high school massacre!

I wanted to take offense with you for using "Detroit" as your example city, but truth be told, you hit the nail on the head with it!

:p

Terra

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

I wanted to take offense with you for using "Detroit" as your example city, but truth be told, you hit the nail on the head with it! :p

Terra

Terra, I used Detroit as an example solely because it was the first U.S city that sprang to mind. I could have just as well used NY city or Chicago.
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- MissTerraK 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bravo75
  
  Terra, I used Detroit as an example solely because it was the first U.S city that sprang to mind. I could have just as well used NY city or Chicago.
  
  I know, lol!
  
  I don't live in Detroit although it is in my state. I was just trying to mess with ya, sorry.
  
  Actually, I shouldn't have done that at all in so somber of a thread, but I was just trying to lighten the mood for a second as I'm still reeling over this news.
  
  Terra
  
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vivo 13 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

I wanted to take offense with you for using "Detroit" as your example city, but truth be told, you hit the nail on the head with it! :p

Terra

Ditto, although I must admit that is probably true.
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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

The next thing you know, some whacked out, laid off teacher goes ape shit and starts blasting his colleagues, pupils and superiors away. Now that would make for a great headline, wouldn't it?

New law permitting school teachers to carry firearms backfires. 17 dead at Detroit high school massacre!

You said "laid off teacher" - If they are laid off, they don't work there.. lol

Why is this important to point out?

I'll tell you - because if the teachers who WERE still employed there are legally carrying and trained in how to use a firearm, and under which circumstances, then that laid-off teacher wouldn't get very far when they tried to go "ape shit"

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Kay King 13 years ago

I've been in so many arguments regarding "gun control" this morning over this, I can't even count them all.. but I stand by my opinion.

Useless arguments - you won't convince anyone so best to make your mind for yourself and go by that in your own life.

The best quote I've heard on TV today was this:

"We don't need metal detectors - we need mental detectors"
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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

You said "laid off teacher" - If they are laid off, they don't work there.. lol

Why is this important to point out?

I'll tell you - because if the teachers who WERE still employed there are legally carrying and trained in how to use a firearm, and under which circumstances, then that laid-off teacher wouldn't get very far when they tried to go "ape shit"

It doesn't matter. It was just a fictional headline. I'm sure you get the drift.
A mentally unstable, not-very-happy, alcoholic school teacher, then.

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garyv 13 years ago

There are so many guns in this country, that you'd never ever get rid of them all without a major confiscation, and that would require a repeal of the 2nd amendment. That's not ever going to happen.

Right now we are making more laws and restrictions - People that don't obey laws, or abide by restrictions are not deterred by them. Laws are NOT made to stop criminal behavior, but to put a boundary on lawful behavior.

Anyone involved in a criminal action is usually not capable of self regulation at the time of their action - otherwise obviously they wouldn't be doing it. Laws have no effect on a person in this mindset. So it almost always takes another person to stop a criminal action.

We need to make our laws so that it is easier for a "law abiding" citizen to stop criminal behavior.
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Nicholas H

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

The next thing you know, some whacked out, laid off teacher goes ape shit and starts blasting his colleagues, pupils and superiors away. Now that would make for a great headline, wouldn't it?

New law permitting school teachers to carry firearms backfires. 17 dead at Detroit high school massacre!

Regardless of If a person was laid off or not, If they want to kill people (gun or not), they will.

There are plenty of people who have been laid off and didn't go on killing sprees.

I have a CWP and have been laid off In the past. You know what I didn't do? Kill people.

If that Is a persons mindset, they will do It regardless.

Also places with lesser gun laws have less gun crimes. Who wants to rob a store with the chance half of them also have a weapon?

That's kind of like someone stupid enough to rob a gun shop because they all carry loaded handguns on them (surprisingly has been attempted a lot In the past, never turned out well for the robber) :p

To the people who want to ban guns because of the small fraction of people who use them for bad, I would shoot someone before they took my protection for me and my family away from me, because I have had to use them In bad situations that prevented harm to me and my family.

This Is a horrible story, and I have been following It.

Blows my mind that a fellow human being could do such a thing as this :/

Prayers go out to all their family and friends.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Nicholas H

That's kind of like someone stupid enough to rob a gun shop because they all carry loaded handguns on them (surprisingly has been attempted a lot In the past, never turned out well for the robber) :p

I was in one gun store once and almost felt like walking out, it seem so CONTROLLED. I but if I pulled a gun I wuld be shot from 4 sides before I could take a step. I also went to a metallic/currency commodity store. OK, they called it a jewelry/coin dealer, but that doesn't do it justice. You could buy ingots of gold/silver/platinum/paladium, coins of all grades old and new from almost anywhere, currency, and/of course, the normal jewelry stuff.

It was on the corner of two major freeways and two major streets, and VERY obvious.

****BUT**** they had DUAL locked gates monitored by sales people and a guy behind bullet proof glass. If someone managed to kill everyone, they would have to figure how to get through two gates in time to escape the police, and might have to risk what they came for. I don't think they have ever been robbed, but they probably have several hundred thousand dollars of hard readily sellable items just in the front display cases. There may be many millions in storage, etc... I lived close to them and NEVER heard of a robbery.

Steve

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TiffanyLambert

13 years ago

Been bawling all day. Now they're saying they may have a 2nd suspect in custody and the main shooter was a dad of the student?

So sad.

I can't work now

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Kay King 13 years ago

It's a descent into madness.

This sickens me - if we can't keep children safe while in school, what are we coming to? Or maybe the question is - what have we become?
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MissTerraK 13 years ago

I'm completely devastated!

Having been a teacher for elementary children with learning disabilities makes this hit very close to my heart!

I can't have my TV on as I am watching my grand kids at home today. Perhaps it's best I don't!

My heartfelt prayers go out to all of the families who have suffered a loss in this tragedy. It couldn't come at a worse time of the year either. As if the shootings alone weren't bad enough!

I ditto everything Whos That Guru said in triplicate, even!!

Terra
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Lou Diamond

13 years ago

Hello,
the amazing thing about something like this is that gun sales always goes up after.

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Patrician

13 years ago

Just horrible.

Speechless.

So deeply sorry...

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Kay King 13 years ago

Just listened to the local news conference and numbers are not confirmed as yet.

I admire the Gov of the state for skipping a photo op and being with the parents instead and it sound as if the response of local officials was excellent.

At least they went into the building immediately - unlike Columbine where police remained outside for hours.
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bravo75

13 years ago

All I can say is: F&*%ing Hell! Speechless.

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wackiin

13 years ago

Everyone always blames Guns but nuts can get guns if they want them
Everyone had Guns when I was in school and we never had this kind of bs its something in todays times thats pushing nuts to do this not guns

I feel really bad for everyone up there ive got 6 grandkids in school and scares the shit out of me

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Kay King

13 years ago

It's not the gun per se - but the mindset of people that is the problem these days.

Interesting to see the difference:

a gunman opened fire Friday in a Connecticut elementary school, killing nearly 30 people -- most of them children, a law enforcement official receiving information from the scene told CNN.

and

A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens.

I'm not making any points or arguments - just found it an interesting comparison.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

It's not the gun per se - but the mindset of people that is the problem these days.

Interesting to see the difference:

and

I'm not making any points or arguments - just found it an interesting comparison.

It might not be so easy to "injure" so many kids with A knife! They could have an allergic reaction, get sick, be poisoned, OR, if the are hemophiliacs or taking blood thinners bleed to death or get some other bleeding related problem. And that is assuming it is a PRICK! Wouldn't an assailant WANT to do harm? Puncture a lung, slit a throat, cut a tendon, gouge a muscle? In any event, the fact of the matter is that they easily COULD. SURE, they may only be INJURIES. My few examples of what an assailant might want would range from a disability to only a likelyhood of death. Isn't that ENOUGH?

Steve

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

It doesn't matter. It was just a fictional headline. I'm sure you get the drift.
A mentally unstable, not-very-happy, alcoholic school teacher, then.

I know, but I'm just saying.. people are always quick to highlight the bad instances where a gun was involved - but NEVER the good ones.

So, heres just a few of the more recent situations:

Casper Police: Nail salon customer packs heat, gunman leaves

Burglar calls 911 to save himself from gun-wielding homeowner | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News

Elderly man shoots at intruders | valley, apple, elderly - Victorville Daily Press

WWMT Newschannel 3 :: News - Top Stories - Would-be robber shot at convenience store

People should always be ready (and prepared) to protect themselves, and not just at home or in your car.

These days people are just too unpredictable, and 99% of the time, the police arrive AFTER the crime has already taken place. They can't protect you.

"A gun in hand is better than 2 cops on the way."

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AprilCT 13 years ago

Between this shooting and the stabbing in China, I've been feeling sick all day.

I'd like to see more decent citizens packing everywhere they go. Criminals do what they do because they can get away with it. Expecting them to obey the law is an exercise in futility.
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Robert Michael

13 years ago

I'd like to see more decent citizens packing everywhere they go.

Take a trip to the south.. LOL

When I'm out, my G19 is ready to go at 15+1. When I'm home, its ready to go at 33+1.

While I hope I never find myself in a situation like that, its nice to know that if something WERE to happen and that is the only way to protect my (or someone else's) life, I'm able to do what I have to. Plus I'm a damn good shot. lol

I passed my CWP class with a perfect score, on both the written exam and the shooting.

I'm currently trying to convince my wife to get hers, but first I want to find something that we're both comfortable with since I don't fully trust revolvers and the GLOCK .380 is only for law enforcement.

In my opinion, anybody who is legally allowed to possess and carry one, SHOULD!!!

Anyway.. I'm sure I went off topic here.

But if the teachers had been armed AND they had experience with their weapon, this lunatic would have gotten one or two shots off AT MOST before being taken down, instead of going on a 20+ killing spree.

Its really sad.

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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

Take a trip to the south.. LOL

When I'm out, my G19 is ready to go at 15+1. When I'm home, its ready to go at 33+1.

While I hope I never find myself in a situation like that, its nice to know that if something WERE to happen and that is the only way to protect my (or someone else's) life, I'm able to do what I have to. Plus I'm a damn good shot. lol

I passed my CWP class with a perfect score, on both the written exam and the shooting.

I'm currently trying to convince my wife to get hers, but first I want to find something that we're both comfortable with since I don't fully trust revolvers and the GLOCK .380 is only for law enforcement.

In my opinion, anybody who is legally allowed to possess and carry one, SHOULD!!!

Anyway.. I'm sure I went off topic here.

But if the teachers had been armed AND they had experience with their weapon, this lunatic would have gotten one or two shots off AT MOST before being taken down, instead of going on a 20+ killing spree.

Its really sad.

The problem is that you don't know if the person is mentally sound enough to be allowed a weapon, and that therein is where the problem lies. It's much too easy to get a gun. There should be a much more involved process than simply handing over ID and signing a few documents.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Charlotte Jay

The problem is that you don't know if the person is mentally sound enough to be allowed a weapon, and that therein is where the problem lies. It's much too easy to get a gun. There should be a much more involved process than simply handing over ID and signing a few documents.

I somewhat agree - it just depends on which state you are in though. Not all states are like that, where you can just hand over your ID & sign some papers.

For example, a friend of mine in Massachusetts tells me its so hard to get one, that he actually purchased a bow & arrow set instead.

Now in this state, I can walk in to any gun shop, choose what I want & pay for it, the shop makes a call to verify if you're allowed to purchase, and 5 minutes later I'm walking out with it.

BUT I should also point out that I can ONLY do this because of my previous purchase history.

The very first time I went to buy a gun, there was a 3-day hold while they conducted their check before I was allowed to pick it up.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Charlotte Jay

The problem is that you don't know if the person is mentally sound enough to be allowed a weapon, and that therein is where the problem lies. It's much too easy to get a gun. There should be a much more involved process than simply handing over ID and signing a few documents.

Oh it's easier than that to get a gun. All you have to go is go downtown and find the guys selling the saturday night specials. Anyone can own a gun - restrictions are only for legal owners.

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Riptor

13 years ago

[QUOTE= Heysal - restrictions are only for legal owners.[/QUOTE]

Same over here Sal, in fact shooting pistols has been banned over here since '97, law abiding competitors cannot even compete in the Olympics (for handgun shooting).

But the crims still have and use them all the time, I really don't know what the answer is to this.

Anyway from across the pond our hearts go out to all the people affected by this appalling and dispicable act.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Riptor

Same over here Sal, in fact shooting pistols has been banned over her for since '97, law abiding competitors cannot even compete in the Olympics (for handgun shooting).

But the crims still have and use them all the time, I really don't know what the answer is to this.

Anyway from across the pond our hearts go out to all the people affected by this appalling and dispicable act.

I SAID what the solution is! I said it SEVERAL times! It is VERY easy if you have ONE little thing! A 3yo could do it! READY? OK, here it goes......

1. Go back in time a few thousand years, and find the chinese guy that created gun powder! Of course, EVENTUALLY someone is going to find SOMETHING eventually, so you have to keep going back!
2. RELAX in a FAR simpler world with fewer people, less food, no roads, etc.... The US may not even exist, etc.... OH, there will STILL be wars, murder, suicide, etc... but it will be through knives, poisonings, fire, low level explosives, etc...

But you MIGHT create a paradox because YOU probably wouldn't be alive AND, if you were, what reason would you have to go back to get rid of the explosives?

OH WELL, as I said, it is CHILDSPLAY, as long as you can go back in time. In so many ways, it seems that that is impossible to do.

BTW do you have ANY idea what this world would be like without KNIVES? OH, and here is an idea! Ever wonder why someone never came up with the idea to oppose two knives against one another with a fulcrum? They HAVE! Young kids use them! The garment and clothing industry would be NOTHING without them! They're called SCISSORS! And what of a knife at a set angle used to level things? NEAT IDEA, HUH? Well, they have THAT! It could be called a paint scraper, rasor, haircutters, etc....

And I said LOW LEVEL explosives earlier. YEAH, things like grain, alcohol, gas, etc... Without them, we couldn't even use the few roads we would have really.

OH YEAH, there would be NO ISRAEL!!!!!!! And you can forget about most of the middle east. They would be NOMADS! And forget cell phones, computers, the internet, etc.... ALL because we get rid of explosives that could easily power guns and yet save not ONE life!

Steve

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JimDucharme

13 years ago

Our hearts go out to those in CT and all our American friends. I have a 3 year old and she won't understand when she comes home, I hug her so tight and cry. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me personally, now is not the day to talk about the social issues involved. The only thoughts I have on any of this right now are prayers.

Regards,
jim

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seasoned

13 years ago

Police officials said the suspect in the attack is 20-year-old Adam Lanza, according to the Associated Press. They believe teacher Nancy Lanza, his mother, was his primary target.

don't know what is worse about this! OHICSM!!!!

They just don't care! FUNNY, I saw the infancy of the attitude that would lead to this when I was a kid, but I don't think I EVER heard of it happening! TODAY, it happens a LOT! That school was regularly on LOCKDOWN!!!! Why half staff NOW? Did they do that the dozens of other times?

Yeah, I was saying just THIS MORNING how fantastically GREAT and nice this culture is!

Don't believe me? Posted THIS MORNING:

How did things get so bad? I mean I look at each decade I have been in(and I HAVE mentioned this for DECADES), and it seemed like people are getting worse and worse!
60s? 70s? 80s? 90s? 2000? 2010? SERIOUSLY, I have heard people say things just YESTERDAY that in the 80s would have gotten them BUMPED off the air, TRASHED in the media, and probably THROWN IN JAIL! In the 80s some did things people WERE thrown in jail for in the 60s.

OH YEAH! I was trying to say how things like this are so likely to happen.

NEVER MIND!

Steve

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yukon

Banned 13 years ago

This is so sad.

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David Braybrooke

13 years ago

I feel really terrible for the families who have lost loved ones in this tragedy! This won't be a popular statement for some, but it really seems long overdue now that the US gun lobby needs to be hauled in to line. How many tragedies will it take for gun laws to change? Criticise if you must, but this event is so gut-wrenchingly sickening that NOW is the time for change. Mr Obama (et al) get your act together!!!

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Braybrooke

I feel really terrible for the families who have lost loved ones in this tragedy! This won't be a popular statement for some, but it really seems long overdue now that the US gun lobby needs to be hauled in to line. How many tragedies will it take for gun laws to change? Criticise if you must, but this event is so gut-wrenchingly sickening that NOW is the time for change. Mr Obama (et al) get your act together!!!

^ What Sal just posted is exactly why a gun ban or any type of "reform" would do NOTHING to stop this kind of thing from happening.

But unfortunately for those who DO obey the law, gun reform is once again the topic that is plastered all over the television, internet, social media sites, and everywhere else you can think of.

People need to realize something - ALL that would do, is prevent law-abiding citizens from having them - The very same people who 9 times out of 10, you don't need to worry about them having one in the first place!!!

Think about something:

Criminals dont give a damn about the law as it is - and trust me when I say that a new piece of paper telling them they can't have one certainly isn't gonna stop them from finding one.

YES, this was and is a tragedy. However, **attempting to** take the guns from legal owners & carriers is NOT the answer, like a lot of people seem to think.

And yes, I said "attempting to" because I'm sure as hell not giving up mine without a fight.. and I can guarantee I'm not the only one who feels this way..

ALSO:

As much as I really hate to say this, I tend to blame the violence in video games for this type of behavior a LOT more than I blame guns for it..

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David Braybrooke

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

^ What Sal just posted is exactly why a gun ban or any type of "reform" would do NOTHING to stop this kind of thing from happening.

But unfortunately for those who DO obey the law, gun reform is once again the topic that is plastered all over the television, internet, social media sites, and everywhere else you can think of.

People need to realize something - ALL that would do, is prevent law-abiding citizens from having them - The very same people who 9 times out of 10, you don't need to worry about them having one in the first place!!!

Think about something:

Criminals dont give a damn about the law as it is - and trust me when I say that a new piece of paper telling them they can't have one certainly isn't gonna stop them from finding one.

YES, this was and is a tragedy. However, **attempting to** take the guns from legal owners & carriers is NOT the answer, like a lot of people seem to think.

And yes, I said "attempting to" because I'm sure as hell not giving up mine without a fight.. and I can guarantee I'm not the only one who feels this way..

ALSO:

As much as I really hate to say this, I tend to blame the violence in video games for this type of behavior a LOT more than I blame guns for it..

How about this for some clear logic then. I live in a country where gun laws are tightly controlled. And guess what? We have very few shooting tragedies, relative to the United States. I take specific offence when children, innocent and defenceless, are slaughtered using registered weapons in a country that will Not adjust its laws to protect the innocent! Blather on all you like with your pro gun lobby nonsense, and people will continue to die! Something is not working, something has to change. Now! Or it might be your children, and your friends, who will be the next to die! A sobering thought.

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yukon

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Braybrooke

I feel really terrible for the families who have lost loved ones in this tragedy! This won't be a popular statement for some, but it really seems long overdue now that the US gun lobby needs to be hauled in to line. How many tragedies will it take for gun laws to change? Criticise if you must, but this event is so gut-wrenchingly sickening that NOW is the time for change. Mr Obama (et al) get your act together!!!

Your living in a dream world If you think a law will prevent crazy people from shooting innocent people. What about the nut case in China that stabbed 22 people? Are you going to pass a law to make knives illegal?

Show me a single place in the US where you can't buy illegal drugs. We have laws that make crack illegal, you can still buy crack anyplace you go in the US.

My local courthouse had Gov. officials busted for selling drugs out of Gov. offices, multiple people selling. It's illegal to sell drugs from a Gov. office, it still happens.

My point is, you can't reason with a crazy person. Crazy people don't acknowledge laws, If they did they wouldn't be crazy to begin with.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

What about the nut case in China that stabbed 22 people?

Yeah, but how many of those kids died?

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yukon Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Yeah, but how many of those kids died?

Your missing the point.

A crazy person isn't picky about choosing weapons.

Ever heard of Oklahoma City? That nut case didn't use a gun or a knife.
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- Riptor 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by yukon
  
  Your missing the point.
  
  A crazy person isn't picky about choosing weapons.
  
  Ever heard of Oklahoma City? That nut case didn't use a gun or a knife.
  
  Yep you are right, a few weeks back we had a nutter go crazy in a Ford van he ploughed into a bus stop full of people. Killing one and injuring 18 folks... so what do we do ban Ford vans?
  
  The truth is anything can be turned into a weapon if you are that way inclined.
  I maintain that weapons do not kill people... people kill people!
  
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  yukon Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Riptor
  
  The truth is anything can be turned into a weapon if you are that way inclined.
  I maintain that weapons do not kill people... people kill people!
  
  Exactly, crazy people don't care about laws.
  
  What's crazy is people wanting to create laws to prevent crazy people from hurting other people. What do the plan on doing If they ban guns, telling the crazy shooter it's illegal to shoot innocent people?
  
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derekwong28

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Yeah, but how many of those kids died?

There had been other knife attacks on school children in China where a number of children died. I suspect that the perpetrator was "holding back" a bit in this case. The strange thing was this incident in China happened less than 24 hours before the shooting in the US. I suspect it may have helped in triggering the gunman to do it The chances are that there will be more copycat attacks in other parts of the world. This is very sad day for all.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

There had been other knife attacks on school children in China where a number of children died. I suspect that the perpetrator was "holding back" a bit in this case. The strange thing was this incident in China happened less than 24 hours before the shooting in the US. I suspect it may have helped in triggering the gunman to do it The chances are that there will be more copycat attacks in other parts of the world. This is very sad day for all.

And that's where my concern is. Right now our admin wants to put our rights into the hands of the UN - we've had two mass shootings before this since they decided they want to go after our guns. Now we have a mass shooting, with a mass stabbing elsewhere that everyone survived. The two previous shootings were very fishy - mind control programs, psychotropic drugs.

I not only feel bad for the families, I feel they lost children in a political war. Too many coincidences. I am afraid. Afraid these things are going to happen until those that think emotionally will over-run our right to bear arms and I don't like what that is going to look like a few years down the road. The kid's brother said he was showing "unusual characteristics". Something is very rotten in Denmark and we have 27 families grieving because of it.

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whateverpedia 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Yeah, but how many of those kids died?

Given the choice between being confronted by a nutter with a knife, or a nutter with a gun, I'll choose the nutter with a knife every time.
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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Braybrooke

I feel really terrible for the families who have lost loved ones in this tragedy! This won't be a popular statement for some, but it really seems long overdue now that the US gun lobby needs to be hauled in to line. How many tragedies will it take for gun laws to change? Criticise if you must, but this event is so gut-wrenchingly sickening that NOW is the time for change. Mr Obama (et al) get your act together!!!

Agreed. Columbine, Virginia, Arora, now this. Contrary to what many Americans believe, guns do not make the average citizen safer. Quite the contrary.

Surely, this latest massacre must make lawmakers seriously consider taking a close look at the second amendment and making some changes.

The second amendment is based on the 1688 English Bill of Rights which states "Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defense".

How pathetic and outdated is that? We are in 2012 for crying out loud.

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yukon

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Agreed. Columbine, Virginia, Arora, now this. Contrary to what many Americans believe, guns do not make the average citizen safer. Quite the contrary.

Surely, this latest massacre must make lawmakers seriously consider taking a close look at the second amendment and making some changes.

The second amendment is based on the 1688 English Bill of Rights which states "Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defense".

How pathetic and outdated is that? We are in 2012 for crying out loud.

You posted this thread where a guy from China stabbed 22 people with a knife.

What's your position on knives? Should knives be outlawed?

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

You posted this thread where a guy from China stabbed 22 people with a knife.

What's your position on knives? Should knives be outlawed?

My position on knives is that a knife yielding maniac is less likely to cause a massacre.

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yukon

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

My position on knives is that a knife yielding maniac is less likely to cause a massacre.

Tell that to the victims in that China stabbing. Don't you think those people were terrorized?

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by yukon

Tell that to the victims in that China stabbing. Don't you think those people were terrorized?

Terrorized? For sure. Dead? No. Luckily, none of the kids died. Imagine if that loony would have been carrying a gun.

Don't mean to be splitting hairs here, but being terrorized and being dead are two very different things.

Chinese man attacks 22 children, 1 adult with knife outside primary school - NY Daily News

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yukon

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Terrorized? For sure. Dead? No. Luckily, none of the kids died. Imagine if that loony would have been carrying a gun.

Don't mean to be splitting hairs here, but being terrorized and being dead are two very different things.

Chinese man attacks 22 children, 1 adult with knife outside primary school - NY Daily News

The choice of weapon isn't the problem, like already said just about anything could be used as a weapon.

Your missing the point.

A crazy person isn't picky about choosing weapons.

Ever heard of Oklahoma City? That nut case didn't use a gun or a knife.

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ccole 13 years ago

This is an awful, sad event. I have been following the news as well and have been checking for updates. I have a 6-year old niece and it is just sad to hear about what happened to the victims..
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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

My position on knives is that a knife yielding maniac is less likely to cause a massacre.

A LOT of people have been killed by knife based implements. Even the bible speaks of it

Ever hear of the battle of marathon?

Steve
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tagiscom

13 years ago

Your living in a dream world If you think a law will prevent crazy people from shooting innocent people. What about the nut case in China that stabbed 22 people? Are you going to pass a law to make knives illegal?

Show me a single place in the US where you can't buy illegal drugs. We have laws that make crack illegal, you can still buy crack anyplace you go in the US.

My local courthouse had Gov. officials busted for selling drugs out of Gov. offices, multiple people selling. It's illegal to sell drugs from a Gov. office, it still happens.

My point is, you can't reason with a crazy person. Crazy people don't acknowledge laws, If they did they wouldn't be crazy to begin with.

Yep, totally agree, someone who is nuts, and ready to do himself, or herself in, etc. Is sane initially!

But put that person in the wrong set of circumstances, and the country doesn't matter! If they want to kill themselves and others they will find a way!

Australia is gun free, but...

last week a long term unemployed electrician, went up to a guard outside parliament house in Melbourne, (Victoria) and asked directions! Then when the guard was looking away, he hit him with a large hammer and stole his gun. Then ran off into a nearby park and shot himself!

This guy very likely was like you or me 10 years ago, but the fact that he lost his job, and couldn't find more work, got kicked out of his house, (with rents going up and up, the dole isn't enough) then his girlfriend left him and he was forced to move in with a family member with medical issues.

Clearly his life was getting worse and worse, and it tipped him over the edge! Guns aren't commercially available, (farmers excepted) in AU, but as this shows, it is relatively easy to get one!

Another example is a lady who drove her BMW on the wrong side of the freeway and was trying to hit a car head on!!!

Unfortunately she eventually did, and killed herself and several others!

The economic conditions are exasperating this, and we can only hope that we are no-where near them when they go off!

The Batman movie, with the Joker and half face, is another good example, which shows how someone who is law abiding, can go over the edge and become evil, when he goes through enough things!

I asked around after seeing that one, and someone who is nice can turn evil, if enough very negative things happen!

Yep, l hope something very positive happens soon, we badly need to overhaul our society in general. To many people are falling through the cracks!

Shane

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

There is a very simple solution to this problem.

1. It begins with reporting any signs of mental illness IMMEDIATELY. It means
people who have a history or mental illness are watched like hawks. You don't
let these lunatics just run around loose in the streets. If necessary, you make
it mandatory that they report in each day to some agency and if they don't,
police come looking for them and lock them up.

2. All schools, malls, public buildings in general where there are large numbers
of people have armed police guards at EVERY entrance during regular hours of
the building's operation. Everybody entering the building is searched. This way,
nobody gets in with a weapon of any kind. F**k the expense. You can't put a
price on a human life.

3. Every classroom has an armed guard at all times in case somebody gets
past level 1 security.

4. Public execution for anybody committing such an act who doesn't kill
himself first, using the most painful form, and if possible, one that takes the
longest amount of time to execute so that they suffer unbearably.

I don't want to hear about the "expense" of what any of this will cost. For
one thing, lots more cops means more jobs. That means lower unemployment.

And I'm sure there are other things that CAN be done if we REALLY wanted to
do them. As Obama said, this needs to be stopped regardless of the politics.

20 children lost their lives. 20 children who will never grow up to see their
dreams come true. Hundreds of people forever destroyed by this tragedy.

There is no excuse for allowing something like this to happen. And yes, that's
EXACTLY what this country has done...allowed it to happen by not doing
EVERYTHING possible to prevent it from happening.

If the world doesn't end on 12/21/12, maybe it should.

Maybe we need to just start all over again with sticks, stones and discovering
fire.

At least then it might take a few thousand years before we're back to killing
each other in mass quantities.

I'm just sickened by this whole thing.

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

One other thing. I agree with Bravo. The gun laws here are a joke. They need to
be radically altered. We're not living during Revolutionary War times. Every gun
should be confiscated. Only the police and the army, period. If you're caught
with a gun, life in prison.

Hire a mass militia to search every home in the US after the ban goes into effect.

Police our borders and inspect everything coming into this country.

And there's more that can be done. I won't list it all here. But if we REALLY want
to, we can get ALL guns off the streets. It will cost a fortune. So what? This
country just prints money anyway any time it likes. What's another trillion dollars
in debt?

20 children died.

You can't run into a school and kill 20 children with a knife.

This madness HAS TO STOP.

And I know there are a lot of pro gun people who have lost any and all
respect that they had for me to this day, some of them good friends of mine,
but this is enough. I'm done reading about children killed in schools or at
shopping malls. I'm done having my heart broken on almost a daily basis. My
own daughter was mugged in NY a couple of months back. I'm done worrying
about HER everyday.

I'm done. And I don't care how many people get pissed off when their guns
get taken away.

This MUST STOP.

Because enough dreams of enough children have already been destroyed.

And now you can all go throw rocks at me, because quite honestly, I don't
give a f**k.

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

One other thing. I agree with Bravo. The gun laws here are a joke. They need to
be radically altered. We're not living during Revolutionary War times. Every gun
should be confiscated. Only the police and the army, period. If you're caught
with a gun, life in prison.

Hire a mass militia to search every home in the US after the ban goes into effect.

Police our borders and inspect everything coming into this country.

And there's more that can be done. I won't list it all here. But if we REALLY want
to, we can get ALL guns off the streets. It will cost a fortune. So what? This
country just prints money anyway any time it likes. What's another trillion dollars
in debt?

20 children died.

You can't run into a school and kill 20 children with a knife.

This madness HAS TO STOP.

And I know there are a lot of pro gun people who have lost any and all
respect that they had for me to this day, some of them good friends of mine,
but this is enough. I'm done reading about children killed in schools or at
shopping malls. I'm done having my heart broken on almost a daily basis. My
own daughter was mugged in NY a couple of months back. I'm done worrying
about HER everyday.

I'm done. And I don't care how many people get pissed off when their guns
get taken away.

This MUST STOP.

Because enough dreams of enough children have already been destroyed.

And now you can all go throw rocks at me, because quite honestly, I don't
give a f**k.

Realistically Steven, this won't happen, so we have to deal with that.

For the record, in case a few think I am a gun nut...

I do not own a gun.

I have never owned a gun.

I WILL NEVER own a gun.

I have only shot guns twice in my lifetime.

I agree that one death by gun is too many.

But I also am certain that guns are here to stay in this country and thanks to nut jobs (including many that wear uniforms, by the way), my opinion is simply that if you feel the need to protect yourself by owning a gun, that's your right.

Since there will never be a total gun ban in this country, I vote for the ability to protect ourselves. And before you point to yesterday's tragedy keep in mind that people successfully protect themselves with guns every day. It's simply that our joke of a media never see ratings in stories like them so they don't get the same air play.

And with that, I am going to go about my day today, with a heavy heart with the death of those poor children and their families grief, and remain out of this useless debate. Useless because the OTHER reality is a bunch of people "debating" this here on a forum will do nothing more than go back and forth - which is great for letting off some steam I suppose, but I already know where most of you stand. I have no intention of trying to change your mind. And none of you will change mine - no matter how many names you call us...

Time for a break. Merry Christmas to everyone.

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Realistically Steven, this won't happen, so we have to deal with that.

For the record, in case a few think I am a gun nut...

I do not own a gun.

I have never owned a gun.

I WILL NEVER own a gun.

I have only shot guns twice in my lifetime.

I agree that one death by gun is too many.

But I also am certain that guns are here to stay in this country and thanks to nut jobs (including many that wear uniforms, by the way), my opinion is simply that if you feel the need to protect yourself by owning a gun, that's your right.

Since there will never be a total gun ban in this country, I vote for the ability to protect ourselves. And before you point to yesterday's tragedy keep in mind that people successfully protect themselves with guns every day. It's simply that our joke of a media never see ratings in stories like them so they don't get the same air play.

And with that, I am going to go about my day today, with a heavy heart with the death of those poor children and their families grief, and remain out of this useless debate. Useless because the OTHER reality is a bunch of people "debating" this here on a forum will do nothing more than go back and forth - which is great for letting off some steam I suppose, but I already know where most of you stand. I have no intention of trying to change your mind. And none of you will change mine - no matter how many names you call us...

Time for a break. Merry Christmas to everyone.

Sadly, you are so right. The truth is, there is no practical solution to this
problem. Somehow, someway, even if we banned guns, people who were
intent on getting them would find a way.

Part of me hopes the Mayans were right.

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Gil W 13 years ago

The real problem is the 'culture of violence' perpetuated by Tv and film makers who use the popularity of violence-as-entertainment to sell their programs and the advertising that supports their livelihood. Arms manufacturers hire lobbyists to spread myths like that of mutual deterence and mutual strike-back capicity if everyone were armed. Because many people are influenced by such rhetoric, many politicians support such views rather than lose votes. The second amendment applies to eigtheenth century militias, not 21st century citizens, but is misunderstood and wrongly interpreted by judges who are not historians. In a 'culture of violence' guns and other weapons are available to crazys who are incapable of moral judgement.
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Patrician

13 years ago

This type of thing has a correlation (maybe just in my mind) that we never heard of school mass murders until they made prayer against the 'law'.

After one of the past tragedies I read somewhere a letter somebody wrote to God saying - essentially - 'ok God, where were you when the columbine massacre went down? where were you when this and that school tragedy happened? (a long list I can't remember)?'

God answers: "Sorry, I am not allowed in school anymore'.

There just may be something to that.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Contrary to what many Americans believe, guns do not make the average citizen safer. Quite the contrary.

Really?

Thats funny, considering statistics have PROVEN that areas with high gun ownership have a lower crime rate.

I can provide sources to back my statement up - Can you?

Just like the "NO CONCEALED WEAPONS" sign that is posted at that school's entrance did NOTHING to stop this criminal from entering with one - a new piece of paper banning guns is NOT going to stop criminals from getting them.

Come on man.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

Really?

Thats funny, considering statistics have PROVEN that areas with high gun ownership have a lower crime rate.

I can provide sources to back my statement up - Can you?

Just like the "NO CONCEALED WEAPONS" sign that is posted at that school's entrance did NOTHING to stop this criminal, a new piece of paper banning guns isn't going to stop criminals from getting them.

Come on man.

You can throw statistics at me all day long. Fact is, more people die in the U.S.A by shooting than all other countries in the western world combined.
What does that tell you?

Here's a statistic for ya:

In 2007 according to the Centers for Disease Control Faststats and the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control WIQARS Leading Causes of Nonfatal Injury Reports:

48,676 people were intentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
18,610 people were unintentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
17,352 suicides (intentionally shot themselves who died) (CDC)
12,632 criminal firearm deaths (killed in a crime by guns) (CDC)
This does not include deaths of people intentionally or unintentionally shot for legal reasons (Like the police shooting a suspect).
The above total is 97270 people shot in the US in 2007. About a third (29984) died, and it is likely that the total number of Americans shot is at least 100,000 given that all types of gunshot injuries/deaths are not included.

Using just the numbers above, a little math indicates that in the US, every day during 2007, AT LEAST 266 Americans were shot. Every day, a third of them (82 daily) died.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

You can throw statistics at me all day long. Fact is, more people die in the U.S.A by shooting than all other countries in the western world combined.
What does that tell you?

Here's a statistic for ya:

In 2007 according to the Centers for Disease Control Faststats and the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control WIQARS Leading Causes of Nonfatal Injury Reports:

48,676 people were intentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
18,610 people were unintentionally shot who survived. (NCIPC)
17,352 suicides (intentionally shot themselves who died) (CDC)
12,632 criminal firearm deaths (killed in a crime by guns) (CDC)
This does not include deaths of people intentionally or unintentionally shot for legal reasons (Like the police shooting a suspect).
The above total is 97270 people shot in the US in 2007. About a third (29984) died, and it is likely that the total number of Americans shot is at least 100,000 given that all types of gunshot injuries/deaths are not included.

Using just the numbers above, a little math indicates that in the US, every day during 2007, AT LEAST 266 Americans were shot. Every day, a third of them (82 daily) died.

The US is one of the FEW countries where about half the people are told that the other half .... people are being told the US is a MENACE! So what do you expect?

Criminals.... DON'T FOLLOW THE LAW!

And people committing suicide by gun must be desparate. If they didn't have a gun, they would probably do it another way.

Anyway, the statistic, even if it were true(and it may not be), is biased. If you don't look at the reasons for the action, the method really tells you nothing.

Frankly I, and I am sure many in the US, just want to live here peacefully. I don't plan to go to india, china, or the middle east. If they do great without changing my world adversly, GREAT! I am HAPPY for them! When I went to europe, I just wanted to fit in. ***I*** changed, I never asked one of them to, and I quietly left. If others do that here, GREAT! If all felt that way, this world could be a paradise for all!

I toned this down because I don't want to get anyone riled here, but really, the stated idea of availability is clearly not the problem. I could give lots of examples, but....

Steve

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Fact is, more people die in the U.S.A by shooting than all other countries in the western world combined.
What does that tell you?

It tells me that we have more criminals than some of those other countries.. lol

Nothing anyone says on this topic can change the way I feel about this.. As I said earlier, I truly do feel for the families of the victims.

But a gun ban isn't going to do ANYONE any favors.. well, except for the bad guys.

Instead of teaching people to be afraid of guns, and that "guns are so horrible" - why not teach them about firearm SAFETY instead??

Firearms are just a tool. Like any tool, it can only do what the person behind it uses it for.

Regarding the China incident where people were stabbed and only injured, and you said "they didn't die" - OK:

When a kid brought a bow & arrow to school & killed his father a week or so ago (yes, KILLED) - NOBODY cried for a ban on bow & arrow sets.. did they? Nope.. yet it is still just as lethal when in the hands of the wrong person.

If these people want to do harm, they will find a way.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

It tells me that we have more criminals than some of those other countries.

You think the States has more criminals than the U.K or France per capita? Not likely. More people are killed in the U.S because there are more firearms in circulation.
If we had the same gun laws in Britain as in the U.S, you would see comparable statistics here too.

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thunderbird

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

You think the States has more criminals than the U.K or France per capita? Not likely. More people are killed in the U.S because there are more firearms in circulation.
If we had the same gun laws in Britain as in the U.S, you would see comparable statistics here too.

There is such widespread American ownership of guns, it isn't viable to stop gun ownership in the US, so even debating that option is pointless.

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

There is such widespread American ownership of guns, it isn't viable to stop gun ownership in the US, so even debating that option is pointless.

Fair statement. In your opinion, what would be reasonable, workable solution to at least alleviate the problem?
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- thunderbird 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bravo75
  
  Fair statement. In your opinion, what would be reasonable, workable solution to at least alleviate the problem?
  
  In my opinion, I think I waded into a debate that is way out of my limited sphere of relevance.
  
  My condolences to everyone personally affected by this tragedy.
  
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DubDubDubDot 13 years ago

Originally Posted by thunderbird

There is such widespread American ownership of guns, it isn't viable to stop gun ownership in the US, so even debating that option is pointless.

A gun ban may not get the guns off the streets, but the accompanying ammo ban would make those guns useless.

There is no valid argument in favor of gun ownership here in 2012. The only argument gun nuts make is the equalizer argument, but that is no longer valid if you are ending the supply of new guns and ammo.

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

statistics have PROVEN that areas with high gun ownership have a lower crime rate.

This is a loaded statement. Rural areas have very high gun ownership rates, but their low crime rates have nothing to do with it. That's just a difference in decency of the overall population. You could take all the guns out of the rural areas and the crime rates wouldn't go up.

This however can't be argued with:
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travlinguy

13 years ago

It's society at large. We glorify crime and killing. Young kids get video games where they're supposed to kill as many people as possible, sometimes innocent people. They're introduced to mindless, merciless violence at an age where they're too young to know the difference between what's play and what's real.

TV is loaded with it. Gangstas are heroes. The word 'bad' means good. The more heinous the crime, the bigger man you are in the pen. Honest people are laughed at. Criminals often have more rights than their victims. Sex offenders are let back out on the streets when experts label them 'likely to do it again.'

It took a long time to get this screwed up and it would take a long time to fix it. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anyone to fix it though. It's already been mentioned. When God was removed from society things went down hill.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by travlinguy

It's society at large. We glorify crime and killing. Young kids get video games where they're supposed to kill as many people as possible, sometimes innocent people. They're introduced to mindless, merciless violence at an age where they're too young to know the difference between what's play and what's real.

TV is loaded with it. Gangstas are heroes. The word 'bad' means good. The more heinous the crime, the bigger man you are in the pen. Honest people are laughed at. Criminals often have more rights than their victims. Sex offenders are let back out on the streets when experts label them 'likely to do it again.'

It took a long time to get this screwed up and it would take a long time to fix it. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anyone to fix it though. It's already been mentioned. When God was removed from society things went down hill.

Agreed. Even more reason to outlaw guns.

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travlinguy 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Agreed. Even more reason to outlaw guns.

Take guns out of the hands of the innocent and only the criminal and crazy will have them. Banning guns doesn't work.
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- David Braybrooke 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by travlinguy
  
  Take guns out of the hands of the innocent and only the criminal and crazy will have them. Banning guns doesn't work.
  
  This is irresponsible commenting! My country has a degree of gun control, our leader is not a Dictator, and mass shootings are almost unheard of. Could be a lesson there.
  
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- whateverpedia 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by travlinguy
  
  Take guns out of the hands of the innocent and only the criminal and crazy will have them. Banning guns doesn't work.
  
  I notice you didn't include John Howard (former conservative Prime Minister of Australia, and BFF of G.W. Bush) in that photo montage. It was he who banned all semi- and automatic weapons in Australia following the Port Arthur massacre in 1996.
  
  The Swiss are the most heavily armed citizens in the world and yet they have few, if any, gun related deaths. The Canadians too have a huge gun population, and once again, relatively few gun related deaths.
  
  BTW doesn't use of that montage invoke Godwin's Law?
  
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- Thomas 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by travlinguy
  
  Take guns out of the hands of the innocent and only the criminal and crazy will have them. Banning guns doesn't work.
  
  For what it's worth, Hitler didn't ban guns. The Nazis actually relaxed existing gun laws (introduced at the behest of the Allies via Treaty of Versailles) after they came to power.
  
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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Or it might be your children, and your friends, who will be the next to die!

I guarantee it won't. Gun control to me, means hitting your target. Which I am quite good at.

I have no problem giving my life in order to protect my family, or even a complete stranger's life.

So no, it won't be my children, friends or family next. I am more than able to protect them, and myself.

Young kids get video games where they're supposed to kill as many people as possible, sometimes innocent people. They're introduced to mindless, merciless violence at an age where they're too young to know the difference between what's play and what's real.

Agreed.. and that is why I said earlier that I tend to blame violence in video games a LOT more than I blame the guns themselves.

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HeySal

13 years ago

You know what I find offensive as hell is people who are not US citizens getting cranked about what our rights are in the US. All I can say is we have the right to bear arms and if you don't like it - don't move here. Your time would be better spent wondering why gun crime is still going on in your own countries that have banned them.

I've seen a lot of cranked out statistics about gun crime in the US - although mixed in with those statistics are the shootings that result because someone is defending themselves from a criminal. There is also no mention of how many of these shootings actually are by people using illegal weapons.

We also like the security of knowing that it is a rare country that will want to invade a country in which most citizens own guns.

I'm very thankful that YOU do not control our rights. You would get many of those 10,000 that shot in self defense killed.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

You know what I find offensive as hell is people who are not US citizens getting cranked about what our rights are in the US. All I can say is we have the right to bear arms and if you don't like it - don't move here. Your time would be better spent wondering why gun crime is still going on in your own countries that have banned them.

I've seen a lot of cranked out statistics about gun crime in the US - although mixed in with those statistics are the shootings that result because someone is defending themselves from a criminal. There is also no mention of how many of these shootings actually are by people using illegal weapons.

We also like the security of knowing that it is a rare country that will want to invade a country in which most citizens own guns.

I'm very thankful that YOU do not control our rights. You would get many of those 10,000 that shot in self defense killed.

Getting a bit patriotic there, Heysal? Surely, you agree that gun crime is a big problem in the U.S and something has to change.
I personally couldn't give a rats arse if Americans carry guns or not. I'm not American. Doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion on the matter though, does it? This is, after all, a discussion forum.

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

We also like the security of knowing that it is a rare country that will want to invade a country in which most citizens own guns.

Which country do you think would try to invade you? :confused:

Mexico, Cuba, China? Surely any invading country would be target practice for the U.S military, air force and navy.
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whateverpedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

You know what I find offensive as hell is people who are not US citizens getting cranked about what our rights are in the US.

What I find sad is that Americans will defend their universal right to own guns, and protest against the universal right to healthcare.

But hey, it's your country, your lives. Do as you see fit. Doesn't affect me in any way.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

What I find sad is that Americans will defend their universal right to own guns, and protest against the universal right to healthcare.

But hey, it's your country, your lives. Do as you see fit. Doesn't affect me in any way.

America is breeding people who think it's normal to shoot other people, thanks to your wonderful right to legally shoot people to defend yourself. What happens then?
Things like this : Meet the Hurricane Looters Drudge Is Warning You About - National - The Atlantic Wire

It breeds psychopaths who don't know that they are and who think their psychopathy is righteous because your laws and culture allow it. It breeds people who can't wait for an occasion to kill someone because they think it's right and who don't see how f%$king wrong it is because your laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous. You people are fu%$ed up in the head and you don't even see it. That's how batshit it is.

This right to kill people to defend yourself is murder sanctioned by the state.

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David Maschke

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

America is breeding people who think it's normal to shoot other people, thanks to your wonderful right to legally shoot people to defend yourself. What happens then?
Things like this : Meet the Hurricane Looters Drudge Is Warning You About - National - The Atlantic Wire

It breeds psychopaths who don't know that they are and who think their psychopathy is righteous because your laws and culture allow it. It breeds people who can't wait for an occasion to kill someone because they think it's right and who don't see how f% wrong it is because your laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous. You people are fu% up in the head and you don't even see it. That's how batshit it is.

This right to kill people to defend yourself is murder sanctioned by the state.

Think what you want while you're getting stoned in Amsterdam. Screw with our right of our children to exist, and we'll push back. The media hype always backfires, and this one will too. With 20 dead 5 year old kids, they've just pushed the survival instincts of a lot of parents.

Come spend the night in one of our inner cities, you'd just might feel the need to defend yourself. That is, if they didn't breed your survival instincts out of you.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Maschke

Think what you want while you're getting stoned in Amsterdam. Screw with our right of our children to exist, and we'll push back. The media hype always backfires, and this one will too. With 20 dead 5 year old kids, they've just pushed the survival instincts of a lot of parents.

Come spend the night in one of our inner cities, you'd just might feel the need to defend yourself. That is, if they didn't breed your survival instincts out of you.

Obviously you are totally missing the point. Want me to draw you a picture?

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DubDubDubDot 13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Maschke

Come spend the night in one of our inner cities, you'd just might feel the need to defend yourself.

That is a classic example of the failure of gun ownership for protection purposes. EVERYONE has a gun in south LA and south Chicago. These are also the two most violent areas of the nation, and the readily available supply of (stolen) guns is the cause.
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Robert Michael

13 years ago

You know what I find offensive as hell is people who are not US citizens getting cranked about what our rights are in the US. All I can say is we have the right to bear arms and if you don't like it - don't move here.

THANK YOU SAL!

I was close to posting the same exact thing myself.

And on that note, I'm gonna try my best to just leave this thread alone.

I've been arguing about this topic since this afternoon. I'm done for the night. Or at least I'll try to be. lol I just find it damn near impossible to not address certain things...

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David Braybrooke

13 years ago

It took a long time to get this screwed up and it would take a long time to fix it. But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anyone to fix it though. It's already been mentioned. When God was removed from society things went down hill.

Well then maybe 'God' should make a reappearance then? Just one point: what has changed with the way the US handles their gun laws since the Aurora shootings? I rest my case. How many will it take? Surely the children deserve better!
Change nothing and nothing changes. God bless America!

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Braybrooke

Well then maybe 'God' should make a reappearance then? Just one point: what has changed with the way the US handles their gun laws since the Aurora shootings? I rest my case. How many will it take? Surely the children deserve better!
Change nothing and nothing changes. God bless America!

You said "Change nothing and nothing changes"! You just got through saying things have changed with no changes! Well, rules WERE tightened up over the decades, but I guess YOU are claiming that would make things BETTER! Things are WORSE!

Steve

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David Braybrooke

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

You said "Change nothing and nothing changes"! You just got through saying things have changed with no changes! Well, rules WERE tightened up over the decades, but I guess YOU are claiming that would make things BETTER! Things are WORSE!

Steve

Then it's time to try some different changes Steve. It's that simple, and that difficult. Best to you!

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David Braybrooke

13 years ago

Frankly I, and I am sure most in the US, just want to live here peacefully. I don't plan to go to india, china, or the middle east. If they do great without changing my world adversly, GREAT! I am HAPPY for them! When I went to europe, I just wanted to fit in. ***I*** changed, I never asked one of them to, and I quietly left. If others do that here, GREAT! If all felt that way, this world could be a paradise for all!

Admirable thoughts Steve. But unless the US does make some changes, then innocent people will continue to die. I pray that a solution can be achieved as I don't want to see another person die.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Braybrooke

Admirable thoughts Steve. But unless the US does make some changes, then innocent people will continue to die. I pray that a solution can be achieved as I don't want to see another person die.

Gee - so what's your solution to the rise in gun crime in Australia since the gun ban there?

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

I think you already have a country to worry about.

If you look at what the politicians are doing to the US right now, finding people becoming violent in one of the most aggressive countries on earth is not really surprising. Sad, but what would you expect from a country in which it is okay for corporations to drug and poison people out of their minds - all while the gov is trying to steal every one of our freedoms. We're getting close to a civil war here -- and this is how it breaks down.

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tryinhere

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

GOOD!!!!

As I've stated almost every time I've posted in this thread, anybody who is legally allowed to own a gun SHOULD own one.

If you want to reform something, go reform your own country's gun laws then.

If Australia DOES have guns (as you claim), then isn't it possible that there might just be more gun owners than you originally thought in your country..?

Perhaps THAT is why you don't have these crime rates that compare to those of the US....

And, assuming my new theory is real - that just reinforces my original post on page 1 about the US having more criminals!!!

Riddle me that

Originally Posted by HeySal

Gee - so what's your solution to the rise in gun crime in Australia since the gun ban there?

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

I think you already have a country to worry about.

.

Australia's gun laws as they are are mainly a direct result of the Port Author Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Ar...cre_(Australia) the laws were not to make an nanny state or to stop gun ownership per se.

It was brought in to clear out all of the illegal / unregistered guns with an amnesty as it was common in some ways guns laid around the home ( in our home they did / as child we had shotguns rifles and assorted amour to start a small war as most probably did )

So those guns we cleaned up and from memory the amount of guns handed in was huge such was the back lash from the massacre.

The responsible owners of guns have no problems in that guns needed to be registered and new secure laws or storage laws were also enforced to ensure those with weapons stored them properly and less accessible to anyone who just wanted to grab a gun and commit another massacre.

regardless of any laws the crooks will still have the guns it is the same here, the laws were designed in main to stop more massacres by removing unwanted guns and better organizing those that did have them.

nothing to do with Nanny states or stopping people having them if they were registered owners.

It just was a horrible day in OZ for people to decide that some change was needed, is it perfect probably not but it was a step everybody voted with their feet and guns and handed them up, enough was enough.

On that I am sure every Aussie is saddened just as much as me for those little children and their brave teachers who lost their lives today and their families. Can not help to have a tear in the eye for those brave children may they all be in peace and together in each others arms.

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

Bingo. What's interesting in this country is that just the phrase "gun control" makes many people think "they are going to take our guns" and while a few here have suggested that, gun control actually means a lot of things such as what you described, not just simply taking all guns away, which I am not in favor of by the way.

If you have a problem, and we do seem to have a problem with gun violence, you need to face it and find solutions of some sort. Not just have a knee jerk reaction saying "gun control isn't the solution".

A large part of the US seems to be in denial about this problem just as a drug addict or alcoholic may be in denial about theirs. I think we are in need of an intervention and frankly, some of the most reasonable thoughts on this subject seem to come from people outside our country.

Originally Posted by tryinhere

Australia's gun laws as they are are mainly a direct result of the Port Author Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Ar...cre_(Australia) the laws were not to make an nanny state or to stop gun ownership per se.

It was brought in to clear out all of the illegal / unregistered guns with an amnesty as it was common in some ways guns laid around the home ( in our home they did / as child we had shotguns rifles and assorted amour to start a small war as most probably did )

So those guns we cleaned up and from memory the amount of guns handed in was huge such was the back lash from the massacre.

The responsible owners of guns have no problems in that guns needed to be registered and new secure laws or storage laws were also enforced to ensure those with weapons stored them properly and less accessible to anyone who just wanted to grab a gun and commit another massacre.

regardless of any laws the crooks will still have the guns it is the same here, the laws were designed in main to stop more massacres by removing unwanted guns and better organizing those that did have them.

nothing to do with Nanny states or stopping people having them if they were registered owners.

It just was a horrible day in OZ for people to decide that some change was needed, is it perfect probably not but it was a step everybody voted with their feet and guns and handed them up, enough was enough.

On that I am sure every Aussie is saddened just as much as me for those little children and their brave teachers who lost their lives today and their families. Can not help to have a tear in the eye for those brave children may they all be in peace and together in each others arms.

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whateverpedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

Straw man argument there. It's 10 years since that was published. Since then crimes of all sorts (violent and otherwise) have decreased in every Australian state.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Straw man argument there. It's 10 years since that was published. Since then crimes of all sorts (violent and otherwise) have decreased in every Australian state.

Heysal's got her "nobody's-gonna-tell-me-to-give-up-my-guns" hat on. There's no reasoning on this topic.
I should add, that if you are not a U.S citizen, you should keep your opinions to yourself.

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whateverpedia 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

I should add, that if you are not a U.S citizen, you should keep your opinions to yourself.

If she, or anyone else who's never been here, criticises my country, I have a right of reply. Free speech is not a one way street.

BTW, I wasn't criticising her country, which has much going for it, just some of her countrymen's need and/or desire to own guns.
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David Braybrooke

13 years ago

You know what I find offensive as hell is people who are not US citizens getting cranked about what our rights are in the US. All I can say is we have the right to bear arms and if you don't like it - don't move here.

Freedom of speech Sal. Isn't that part of your constitution too? I feel sincerely concerned about the safety of US residents, children in particular. And I won't apologise for my views simply because I don't live within your borders. It is one world and we all have to live here. Best to you!

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salegurus

13 years ago

Originally Posted by David Braybrooke

Freedom of speech Sal. Isn't that part of your constitution too? I feel sincerely concerned about the safety of US residents, children in particular. And I won't apologise for my views simply because I don't live within your borders. It is one world and we all have to live here. Best to you!

Here is an idea, rather concern yourself with your own countrymen?

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Trying to bite my tongue here.. (or my keyboard) but I just can't stand this.

Ok, so AU doesn't have guns.. Is that why you seem to so desperately want our people to not have any?

Jealous much? Cuz it sure seems that way..

But since David wants to post some catchy little one-liners, such as this one:

"Change nothing and nothing changes."

Heres one for you:

"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Anyway.........

Here's a toast to the victims and the families of those lost today.. may they rest in peace.

Anyone, feel free to join me (not literally, of course.. unless you live by here, lol) for a round of Ciroc... again, I truly do hate that this happened

I can't imagine what their families are going thru.

But regardless, "gun reform" is not the answer. I promise you that.

Stay safe everyone. Dec 21'st coming up seems to be bringing out the worst in people.

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David Braybrooke

13 years ago

Australia does have guns Who's That Guru. And I beg to differ with you, gun reform IS the answer! Sensible gun reform will save lives. It's not about 'outlawing' them, more a stricter controlling. It needs to happen! Best to you.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Australia does have guns Who's That Guru.

GOOD!!!!

As I've stated almost every time I've posted in this thread, anybody who is legally allowed to own a gun SHOULD own one.

So go out & buy one.

Learn how to shoot & above all, how to actually hit your targets.

Learn how to SAFELY own it, carry it, and transport it.

Learn how to tear it down & clean it & then put it back together.

And I beg to differ with you, gun reform IS the answer!

If you want to reform something, go reform your own country's gun laws then.

Stay out of ours unless you live here.

Sorry but that's just how it is.

PS:

I just thought of something....

If Australia DOES have guns (as you claim), then isn't it possible that there might just be more gun owners than you originally thought in your country..?

Perhaps THAT is why you don't have these crime rates that compare to those of the US....

And, assuming my new theory is real - that just reinforces my original post on page 1 about the US having more criminals!!!

Riddle me that

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

GOOD.

As I've stated almost every time I've posted in this thread, anybody who is legally allowed to own a gun SHOULD own one.

So go out & buy one.

Learn how to shoot & hit your targets.

Learn how to SAFELY own it and transport it.

Learn how to tear it down & clean it & then put it back together.

If you want to reform something, go reform your own country's gun laws then.

Stay out of ours unless you live here.

Sorry but that's just how it is.

Nothing to do with his nationality. If some libtard American started preaching to you about how bad guns are, you'd respond in a similar fashion.

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whateverpedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

If Australia DOES have guns (as you claim), then isn't it possible that there might just be more gun owners than you originally thought in your country..?

Only a handful of people in Australia feels a need to own a gun.

And yes, the criminals DO have them. The big difference is they only use them against each other, ie gang turf wars, etc..

The general populace feels safe enough to not want to own a gun.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

I edited the post dude, might wanna refresh the page.

I type like 90wpm with 100% accuracy, so I tend to save, edit, add more, save, edit, add more, etc..

lol

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bravo75

13 years ago

What's this? U.S.A vs. Australia? WTF? I'm out of here. Nighty night.

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Michael Mayo

13 years ago

Wow!
We've gone National/Governmental on this post???

.............................Rewind

20 children, 7 adults and one (|) are dead.
It's a sad day and just think about how the young survivors will have to deal with this in the future.
They are barely old enough to understand life let alone understanding the loss of new
people they have just met at school on the play ground.

Has anyone thought that Sally may have had a small crush on Tommy(now dead) or
that Troy was learning how to spell from the teacher and now he doesn't know what
he will do?

Seriously, F*@k gun control and all the other politics for now.

The parents of the now gone for ever children and the family & friends
of the never to be seen again adults at that school are morning the loses.

I myself stopped when I heard the news and prayed both for thanks that it
wasn't my youngest granddaughter (presently in kindergarden at school at the time)
and for gods speed in the healing of those with losses today.

Just saying,
~MM~

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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Seriously, F*@k gun control and all the other politics for now

That was actually my first thought when I saw what one person said. I read an article where ANOTHER person said, of the person I just aluded to, "He wiped a tear. I wiped a tear. And then THIS?"! Even HERE against the post of a similar incident in China with KNIVES people talk of this! I would not mention it if not for that.

We could NOT fix this without a time machine, and such an endeavor would change the world. Explosives, and even GUNS, have given the world a lot of good for all the bad they have done. I used to live in an area that probably wouldn't exist for, and we certainly couldn't get to if not for, EXPLOSIVES. Mount rushmore was built with explosives!

Still, americans have a saying. It may even be BRITISH! It may go back MILLENIA! It Refers to a creature in Arab mythos or whatever....

The Genie is out of the bottle! The idea is that TOO MANY know the theories so removal of EVERYTHING would only slow things down a bit. Of course, a lot of people would fight to the death to keep the weapons they have. Even on STAR TREK! Who could forget the episode where some hostile aliens attack the enterprise and so another alien race stops their ships and strands both captains on a planet with raw materials for weapons. Kirk ends up using a piece like bamboo, potassium nitrate, coal, and sulfur and diamonds(IIRC) as a weapon. IIRC, he holds the injured alien at bay with a knife. Luckily, the alien that strands them respects kirks mercy, and lets them go in peace and the other aliens are sent on their way elsewhere.

Lookup David Marshall Williams sometime. He is famous, and in wikipedia. There was a film made about him, starring jimmy stewart as him no less. He had several patents, created a special weapon all in his home. The punch line? He was a PRISONER, and did all that in PRISON. 2 years later, he started making them for the U.S. Military. BTW DMW started all that with scrap metal and car parts!

Steve
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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

People have the right and the duty to defend themselves and their families. When the government takes those rights away, assumes those duties for itself, it puts people at the mercy of those who would harm them and the government itself.

No thanks. I'll keep my guns.

I would "thank" that post, sir, but it seems I am all out of "thanks"

Like I said on page 1..

"A gun in hand is better than 2 cops on the phone"

Or on the way.. or whatever I said earlier.

Again, police always arrive AFTER the crime has taken place.

Better to plan for the worst & hope for the best.

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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

Guru. I am a dual citizen and I don't like guns I admit it, coming from the UK. Help me understand why you are so fiercely for having guns for personal use. Do you go to a firing range and use them? Carry them in cars? I am genuinely curious, not trying to start world war 3

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Charlotte Jay

Guru. I am a dual citizen and I don't like guns I admit it, coming from the UK. Help me understand why you are so fiercely for having guns for personal use. Do you go to a firing range and use them? Carry them in cars? I am genuinely curious, not trying to start world war 3

Yes, I do frequent the range.

Do I carry them in my car?

Yep - you can bet your ass I do.

I also carry everywhere I go in public, permitted its not somewhere that has a "No Concealed Weapons" sign posted.

I have my concealed weapons permit.

My holster is developed by the Israeli Army. Completely one-hand operational.

You can see it in my avatar, which I just updated to represent my opinion on this matter.

It's better, safer, and more reliable than ANY holster our police carry. Guaranteed.

Like I said earlier, when I'm in public, I keep my GLOCK 19 loaded & ready to go at 15+1

When I'm at home (like right now) I keep it loaded at 33+1

Unfortunately, I don't live in some rich neighborhood where everyone has what they need, and nobody wants to try & rob you.

I've had to draw on a crackhead not just once, but TWICE in this city.

And guess what? The first time, it actually turns out that the guy who tried to jump in my car & hijack me had just got done robbing the store.

When I got home & called the cops to let them know that I had just pulled my pistol on some crackhead, and gave them a perfect description, they matched him to the security tape of a nearby convenience store that had just been robbed 30 minutes earlier.

And that prick was trying to jump in my car.

These people don't care about you. And the cops sure as hell can't protect you.

There comes a time where you have to take your safety in to your own hands.

I understand this might be hard for some people to come to grips with. But that is how I grew up.

People play for keeps. So should you.

There is NO coming back from death. This isn't a game.

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Sue McDonald

13 years ago

This is extremely sad for all of the families involved. I was astounded to read that the mother had purchased the guns. He was 20years of age - why would anyone hate so much that they want to take revenge on little children and their teachers.
It will be a very sad Christmas for so many families. My heart and prayers go out to them.

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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

Thank you for the explanation. I have fired a 22 rifle before and that is all I've ever done with guns. I do not feel comfortable handling them at all.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Its really nothing to fear.

Honestly, whenever you get some free time, go to your local range, rent some guns, and learn how they work.

Rifles, pistols, shotguns, everything.

They are nothing to be afraid of --- AS LONG AS you know how to operate them safely.

If I can ever find out how to embed videos on here after the latest WF or YouTube updates (not sure which one..) then I might post up some of my recent videos from the range some time.

You guys would love it. lol I know I did when I was being recorded!! haha

I've shot AR's, Uzi's, AK's, GLOCK's, shotguns, I mean you name it and I've at least put a few rounds thru it.

Guns are nothing to be afraid of when you have the knowledge to operate them safely.

The top four rules to remember with a firearm (in no specific order) is this:

#1, ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

#2, Finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to destroy something.

#3, Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

#4, Always be aware of what is behind your target.

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Slazengeer 13 years ago

calm down guys, its not the weapons that are making devastation and massacre in the society, but bad habits and evil mentality. Video games and movies with extreme violence are making the youngsters's mindset aggressive and violent.
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- MissTerraK 13 years ago
  
  Banning guns won't stop murderers from murdering, they'll use their bare hands if they are evil and crazed enough, they'll use fire, they'll use pipe bombs or other explosives, or any other weapon they can devise!
  
  Banning guns will not take the evil out of twisted brains residing in diabolical heads or quench burning hatred that blackens their hearts. It's not the answer!
  
  But most importantly of all, banning guns won't bring those that lost their lives back! May God bless their souls and comfort their loved ones now and forever, Amen...
  
  Terra
  
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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

The problem with tragedies such as this one (aside from the obvious

) is it tends to throw this political debate back up. But in reality, what seems like such a gigantic problem here in the US (guns) really is not - at least not on the scale the media would have you believe.

Just doing some simple research will reveal a few interesting statistics. One of which is that in the "leading causes of deaths", gun violence is not even in the top ten - although suicide is.

When comparing deaths due to violent crimes, the US ranks well below many countries. Something like 6.5 deaths per 100,000 (all violent crimes, not just guns). Yes, Australia and the U.K. have even fewer (something like 1.2) but when compared to many countries, we barely crack the top 100.

In this country, death rate by gun (specifically) is roughly 10 per 100,000 whereas car accident deaths around 14 - 15, and heart disease: 180.

Obviously we have a LOT of things we need to address - but I guess none so emotionally driven as gun control...

Part of the problem here is we have probably the loudest, most asinine, corporate and government controlled "news" agencies in the world, bent on pushing agendas, NOT deliver the news. And frankly - I admit this freely - we're probably the loudest, most pushy and obnoxious country in the world and subsequently have huge targets on our backs because of it.

Gun control is not the answer. Not if you research statistics for the leading causes of death. We have WAY more deaths by car accidents then we'll evr have by guns yet there's never an outcry to ban cars or lower speed limits, or hey - why do you need those ultra fast sports cars? They cause all these deaths!

Gun control here is nothing more than political fodder for both sides of this issue. Bottom line is if crazy people want to kill, or drug dealers want to war, or mobsters want to rub people out NO amount of gun legislation will stop them. THAT is the stark reality. Tighter gun control may save a few lives - accidents with kids getting a hold of guns, etc. But you will not see a substantial drop in gun deaths.

Mike

Note: you can find statistics all over the place - on and off the internet. I have looked at probably 10 different sites which have differences, but one thing they all seemed to say is that gun deaths in this country are way lower than MANY other causes of death and in most of the research I found it does not hit the top 15.

I am also sure the more industrious among you will find your own statistics that say something very different. That's ok. I suppose we all choose to believe what most aligns with our personal beliefs. You have yours and I have mine

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

Well yeah Mike, but something like heart disease or lung cancer is a lot different from some maniac who shoots your 6 year old. I mean, everyone is going to die so, sure there are many more ways to die than from guns. I'm not sure what your point is here. After all, we are trying to find solutions to heart disease, cancer, auto deaths etc... so shouldn't we also try to do the same with gun deaths?

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

I have looked at probably 10 different sites which have differences, but one thing they all seemed to say is that gun deaths in this country are way lower than MANY other causes of death and in most of the research I found it does not hit the top 15.

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Well yeah Mike, but something like heart disease or lung cancer is a lot different from some maniac who shoots your 6 year old. I mean, everyone is going to die so, sure there are many more ways to die than from guns. I'm not sure what your point is here. After all, we are trying to find solutions to heart disease, cancer, auto deaths etc... so shouldn't we also try to do the same with gun deaths?

The point was simply that whenever a tragedy like this occurs people don't "look for solutions" so much as use them as opportunities to push their agenda. And in doing so make it seem as though writing more legislation to - what - wait longer to get a handgun; take automatic weapons out of the hands of regular citizens, etc. will actually have a big impact on the number of gun related deaths.

Look at the "war on drugs" and it's monumental failure if you really believe more laws will actually help.

And if people are going to use the number of deaths by guns in their argument, it's only fitting to compare it to many other causes. I realize that we're working on ways to stop heart disease. But people act like this country isn't already looking for ways to stop gun deaths. They are. You just don't hear it as loud as when tragedy strikes. In our paper today, the story in CT covered 4 pages. Probably about half a page on the tragedy itself. The rest address the "gun control" issues.

Sad...

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

From what I understand about this particular tragedy the son took his own mother's automatic weapon, which enabled him to kill so many. So, taking automatic weapons out of some citizens would have a big impact. Why on earth would she need an automatic weapon?

Mike, looking for solutions may be viewed by you as an "agenda" but perhaps they are just looking for solutions.

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

The point was simply that whenever a tragedy like this occurs people don't "look for solutions" so much as use them as opportunities to push their agenda. And in doing so make it seem as though writing more legislation to - what - wait longer to get a handgun; take automatic weapons out of the hands of regular citizens, etc. will actually have a big impact on the number of gun related deaths.

Look at the "war on drugs" and it's monumental failure if you really believe more laws will actually help.

And if people are going to use the number of deaths by guns in their argument, it's only fitting to compare it to many other causes. I realize that we're working on ways to stop heart disease. But people act like this country isn't already looking for ways to stop gun deaths. They are. You just don't hear it as loud as when tragedy strikes. In our paper today, the story in CT covered 4 pages. Probably about half a page on the tragedy itself. The rest address the "gun control" issues.

Sad...

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

From what I understand about this particular tragedy the son took his won mothers automatic weapon, which enabled him to kill so many. So, taking automatic weapons out of some citizens would have a big impact. Why on earth would she need an automatic weapon?

Mike, looking for solutions may be viewed by you as an "agenda" but perhaps they are just looking for solutions.

Believe it or not Tim, I mostly agree with you. The agendas I talk about are those who use these tragedies to push their agendas, but you never hear from otherwise.

I am not opposed to better gun laws. The problem is finding a solution that actually will work. For that you need rational thinkers - which we sometimes have a short supply of.

I also think - as has been stated a few times - that drugs (legal ones) are a much larger contributor to these lunatics on the rampage than just the guns. So we are asked to trust a body of government to come up with a workable solution to gun control when it can't come up with a solution to the drug problems (both legal and illegal drugs). Gun control is most definitely a band aid to a larger problem...

I see a lot of opinions and agenda pushing on this forum, but very little in the way of useful solutions. Hell, I will I had a solution.

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Michael Mayo

13 years ago

Here's a thought for everyone...
Imagine that you have bought Christmas presents for your child, nephew, nice, cousin...then this
happens and they/he/she are now gone!

How hard would it o be to get rid of the gift?
What would be racing through your mind?

How will these people be able to deal with their losses so close to Christmas
and how will they ever be able to look at the holiday as good ever again?

Just a few thoughts... I feel for their losses deeply.

Good Night,
May you all have a safe and secure night.
Michael

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David Maschke

13 years ago

There should have been a wall of lead hollow-points traveling at nearly twice the speed of sound, coming to a stop right inside that animal. A wall of lead created by the teachers.

It would have been a page 17 story in the newspapers, and there'd be no debate going on today.

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TimPhelan 13 years ago

What Bravo said.
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taskemann

13 years ago

First of all, this is very sad and all my toughts goes to the childrens families.

But gun control? No. It WON'T PREVENT THE MASSACRES.

Just take a look at what happened here in July 2011. An insane guy killed 69 teenagers with firearms (and 8 with a bomb), even if this country has one of the strictest gun laws in the world and guess what, this idiot got the firearms illegally. So no, gun control won't prevent massacres. This gun control sh*t is only a tool from the crappy socialist b*stards that wants to tear away peoples freedom to own something and their ability to think by themselves.

If they hate the free world so bad, then why don't they just move to their utopia - North Korea or China?

I'm so sick of these crying stupid socialists that I think I'll move to the moon soon were I can at least own my own rock without any control and regulations.

And something else, if you're serious and want to kill a lot of people and don't have a gun, you can find drawings on the Internet on how to create your own assault rifle. And what are the socialists going to do with that? Ban the entire Internet? It wouldn't surprised me if they did...

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ozzie2012

13 years ago

So very sad. God help the parents of those little children!!

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LarryC

13 years ago

<< My suggestion is to scrap the second amendment, confiscate all guns. Hand out 15 years sentences to anyone caught illegally carrying firearms. Security will need to be beefed up. >>

<< Every gun
should be confiscated. Only the police and the army, period. If you're caught
with a gun, life in prison.

Hire a mass militia to search every home in the US after the ban goes into effect. >>

It's sad that people are so easily ready to embrace tyranny just for the illusion of a little more security. And it is an illusion. Once you give the government those kinds of powers, before you know it the government will be killing far more people than random psychos every could.

Here's another perspective, suggesting that psychiatric medication is far more dangerous than guns.

Gun control? We need medication control! Newton elementary school shooter Adam Lanza likely on meds; labeled as having 'personality disorder'

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by LarryC

<< My suggestion is to scrap the second amendment, confiscate all guns. Hand out 15 years sentences to anyone caught illegally carrying firearms. Security will need to be beefed up. >>

<< Every gun
should be confiscated. Only the police and the army, period. If you're caught
with a gun, life in prison.

Hire a mass militia to search every home in the US after the ban goes into effect. >>

It's sad that people are so easily ready to embrace tyranny just for the illusion of a little more security. And it is an illusion. Once you give the government those kinds of powers, before you know it the government will be killing far more people than random psychos every could.

Here's another perspective, suggesting that psychiatric medication is far more dangerous than guns.

Gun control? We need medication control! Newton elementary school shooter Adam Lanza likely on meds; labeled as having 'personality disorder'

I didn't realize that you guys were in such denial. Shocking!

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Tom B

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

I didn't realize that you guys were in such denial. Shocking!

I didn't realize you were an expert on American. Please educate us on our home.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I didn't realize you were an expert on American. Please educate us on our home.

A lot of Americans have their heads to far up their own arses to realize what is going on. Sometimes it takes outsiders to open ones mind.

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

A lot of Americans have their heads to far up their own arses to realize what is going on. Sometimes it takes outsiders to open ones mind.

Perhaps, but it's not mutually exclusive here. You should watch your own news channels for proof of that

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Perhaps, but it's not mutually exclusive here. You should watch your own news channels for proof of that

England is a crime riddled shithole, if that's what you're referring to. We are getting to far off topic here, though.

There are 100,000 people killed each year in the United States by firearms!

What part of "guns are bad news" aren't you getting?

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

England is a crime riddled shithole, if that's what you're referring to. We are getting to far off topic here, though.

There are 100,000 people killed each year in the United States by firearms!

What part of "guns are bad news" aren't you getting?

LOL, 100,000. Where did you get that?

According to the U.N. figures, the U.S. had 9,146 homicides by firearm in 2009. That year, Colombia and Venezuela both exceeded the U.S. total, with 12,808 and 11,115 firearm deaths, respectively. Three other nations topped the U.S. amount in the most recent year for which data is available: Brazil (34,678 in 2008), Mexico (11,309 in 2010) and Thailand (20,032 in 2000).

Here's a stat as told by Michael Moore, an avid gun control advocate:

At least 24 Americans every day (8-9,000 a year) are killed by people with guns - and that doesn't count the ones accidentally killed by guns or who commit suicide with a gun. Count them and you can triple that number to over 25,000.

From our very own government website (2010 or 2011 stats I believe):

All homicides

Number of deaths: 16,799
Deaths per 100,000 population: 5.5
Cause of death rank: 15

Firearm homicides

Number of deaths: 11,493
Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.7

Is this too many? You bet. But not even close to 100,000. What part of research aren't YOU getting?

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

England is a crime riddled shithole, if that's what you're referring to. We are getting to far off topic here, though.

There are 100,000 people killed each year in the United States by firearms!

What part of "guns are bad news" aren't you getting?

There are around a million suicides each year - 143,000 via guns. Do you think if you take away guns these people can't, or won't, kill themselves? How many of those 100,000 gun deaths in the states are suicide?

How many of those 100,000 are people killed while attempting to victimize others? We have open borders and drug cartels running all over hell and back around the West. How many of those gun deaths are not even perpetrated by US citizens?

The statistics are stilted to look worse than they are. More people drown in swimming pools each year than are killed by guns - many of them children.

I haven't yet seen anyone advocate getting rid of swimming pools.

You tell me how I am to protect myself when someone with a gun breaks into my house. Do I just hope and pray I can get to a phone and dial 911 - and then hope that help arrives in time?
You tell me how the government taking my gun will make me safer in a society where the black market can morph to sell anything we want within 24 hours. Tell me how to stay safe without a gun when criminals and illegals have them and use them without hesitation.

You can call me every name in the book - but you can't intimidate me to sit and allow myself to be victimized because someone else has high ideals and a very low sense of the actual danger that we are living in.

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bigbrian76

13 years ago

Let's get back to our roots here people....

Like many fellow Warriors in here, I have been moved beyond belief by this horrific tragedy.....and all I am left with is wondering what I can do to help out....

I have posted on Facebook and in numerous Skype groups that I am in, that I am willing to offer all of my marketing muscle and services to anyone affected by this tragedy. Nothing held back, and all on my dime. Websites....Social Marketing....Mobile.....whatever I have access to and can implement, I will.

I open a challenge to my fellow Warriors.....whatever your talents are, put them out there. There are many groups on Facebook where we can advertise our help and services. Use your affiliate links to generate commissions to donate to the families.

Has anyone here on the WF put together the MOTHER of all WSOs, to raise funds to donate? I have seen these in the past for numerous one-off causes, and also for Hurricane Sandy. But I think we all need to step up and put our collective muscle and money together, to make a difference, WARRIOR STYLE.

I would be willing to work with anyone interested in spearheading this effort. I have never done a WSO myself, so I would need to learn from the Pros here. But, put me on record for offering my company's services:

- website design
- social marketing
- email marketing
- marketing strategy
- press releases
- SEO

I am putting these out there at no cost.....who's with me???

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bigbrian76

Let's get back to our roots here people....

Like many fellow Warriors in here, I have been moved beyond belief by this horrific tragedy.....and all I am left with is wondering what I can do to help out....

I WISH it were beyond belief. But I doubt I am dreaming, My imagination is good, but I know the difference. NOPE! And I have experienced such things on all fronts. For the topic at hand, I have been threatened, heard others threatened, seen others killed and heard of others being killed. Imagine the times we HAVEN'T heard of it!

I have had over 40 years to get "acclimated" to that stupidity. I have noticed EVERY little degree. If it started out at 0, I would probably be charcoal now. When I was a kid, I never dreamed that some people would have such desires. I certainly would never dream that they would take such risks to get them, or be so deluded or.... Well, the last one I saw in school too much. I knew little kids would do it, but "ADULTS"? And they get away wth it!?!?!? I won't even say it here because of the impact!

One person, not to start a godwin whatever, went to a lot of work to achieve a crazy dream. He became one of the most hated men in all of history. With a few tweaks, less effort, and less risk, he could have probably been famous and liked.

Imagine if he wrote a general book on the economy and labor, became good friends with xxxx, and used his time to fix the economic problems and fix a number of problems the country had. Hs group affiliations and government jobs could have easily been the same. It could have changed all of history. His book could have helped other countries, instead of being banned. He could even keep the same title! At that time, there was a BIG need. Of course THAT would have meant he probably wouldn't be a dictator, etc... which was probably his dream. Odd way for an artist to go. He probably should 'have applied to another school. Some respected artists were apparently not as good as he was, IMHO.

I never had a strong desire to be rich, famous, powerful, etc... and really don't understand the attraction, but know that some will do ANYTHING to get it. People have KILLED others and risked death, persecution, threats, and jail time, to get them.

I have posted on Facebook and in numerous Skype groups that I am in, that I am willing to offer all of my marketing muscle and services to anyone affected by this tragedy. Nothing held back, and all on my dime. Websites....Social Marketing....Mobile.....whatever I have access to and can implement, I will.

I hope people are honest with you there and wish you and them the best.

anyway, seriously, I wish anyone helping out decent people, and any decent people, the best. Good luck.

Steve

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

There are around a million suicides each year - 143,000 via guns. Do you think if you take away guns these people can't, or won't, kill themselves? How many of those 100,000 gun deaths in the states are suicide?

How many of those 100,000 are people killed while attempting to victimize others? We have open borders and drug cartels running all over hell and back around the West. How many of those gun deaths are not even perpetrated by US citizens?

The statistics are stilted to look worse than they are. More people drown in swimming pools each year than are killed by guns - many of them children.

I haven't yet seen anyone advocate getting rid of swimming pools.

You tell me how I am to protect myself when someone with a gun breaks into my house. Do I just hope and pray I can get to a phone and dial 911 - and then hope that help arrives in time?
You tell me how the government taking my gun will make me safer in a society where the black market can morph to sell anything we want within 24 hours. Tell me how to stay safe without a gun when criminals and illegals have them and use them without hesitation.

You can call me every name in the book - but you can't intimidate me to sit and allow myself to be victimized because someone else has high ideals and a very low sense of the actual danger that we are living in.

When you're right you're right. We live in a dangerous and scary world. I
don't own a gun because I can't imagine myself shooting another person and
would probably end up with nightmares for life if I ever had to.

For me, that's worse than being dead. At least if I'm dead, I'm not suffering
or in any pain. I can't imagine going through the rest of my life knowing I
killed somebody. The worse thing I ever did to another person in my whole
life was when we were playing army and I accidentally dropped my rifle on
this girl's head. She was okay, but it could have been serious. I got lucky.

Yes, girls played army with us back when I was a kid. We were a very
progressive neighborhood.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there are no answers. Maybe we
just have to accept the world we live in and make the best of it.

All I know is I'm watching the news this morning and the whole hour is on
nothing but this terrible tragedy. And when you actually see the lives that
have been lost and forever changed, you can't help but want something to
change. Anything. So you grasp at straws and you blame guns and gun laws
instead of the people who are responsible.

I know it's terribly cliche, but guns don't kill people. People kill people. And if
we made guns totally illegal in this country, those who are hell bent to get
them and use them for evil will find a way to do so.

Let's face it. Drugs are illegal (crack, cocaine, etc.) and people still manage
to get that stuff. So how hard will it be to get a gun even if we banned their
sale in this country?

I fear there is no REAL answer to this problem.

As the father of a 24 year old daughter living in NY, that scares the hell out
of me.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

When you're right you're right. We live in a dangerous and scary world. I
don't own a gun because I can't imagine myself shooting another person and
would probably end up with nightmares for life if I ever had to.

For me, that's worse than being dead. At least if I'm dead, I'm not suffering
or in any pain. I can't imagine going through the rest of my life knowing I
killed somebody. The worse thing I ever did to another person in my whole
life was when we were playing army and I accidentally dropped my rifle on
this girl's head. She was okay, but it could have been serious. I got lucky.

Yes, girls played army with us back when I was a kid. We were a very
progressive neighborhood.

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there are no answers. Maybe we
just have to accept the world we live in and make the best of it.

All I know is I'm watching the news this morning and the whole hour is on
nothing but this terrible tragedy. And when you actually see the lives that
have been lost and forever changed, you can't help but want something to
change. Anything. So you grasp at straws and you blame guns and gun laws
instead of the people who are responsible.

I know it's terribly cliche, but guns don't kill people. People kill people. And if
we made guns totally illegal in this country, those who are hell bent to get
them and use them for evil will find a way to do so.

Let's face it. Drugs are illegal (crack, cocaine, etc.) and people still manage
to get that stuff. So how hard will it be to get a gun even if we banned their
sale in this country?

I fear there is no REAL answer to this problem.

As the father of a 24 year old daughter living in NY, that scares the hell out
of me.

Steve - some of gun death statistics are because there are people who are too kind, too loving to be able to pull the trigger even when their lives depend on it. If everyone had the same mind and hearts as you do - there would be no need for guns - there would be no war. I feel blessed that there are people like you on this earth.

If you seriously think you cannot pull the trigger when the need is there, you are actually less safe having a gun than more safe. Do not hope for your neighbors to become disarmed themselves, though - you might need them to save you or yours sometime. One of the things training is about when people buy guns is to instill the understanding that you never point a gun unless you are okay with being obligated to shoot it. The person you point it at will have a mindset that will be your death if you do not pull that trigger when you point that gun.

I've been in situations to need my defense mentality. I'm harder than you - that's not always a good thing, but it's kept me from going down in an attack a few times. Despite the toughening, though - we can remain human.

When I saw the news, I thought about the victims. Later I thought about the families.

Then I started to think about how this would make a call for a gun ban - the possibilities of false flags, the drugs people are on now.

Then I thought about the first responders. The guys that had to go in and retrieve the bodies. The guys that had to see the aftermath. The guys who had to tell families that their children would not be coming home again.

Then I thought about our nation. I thought about how everyday we are causing families to go through this with our drones bombing innocent people and ruining lives every day.

And I wonder how we became a nation who feels that our own children are so much more important and precious than everyone else's. Why their pain is not important to us.

I wonder how we can keep any soul or conscience while we allow it to continue.

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Mike Anthony

13 years ago

For obvious and good reasons we concentrate on the number of victims at a time like this (and the age which makes this even more horrific) but when we talk solutions we at least need to recognize the number of perpetrators.

We can all talk about ban on guns like putting one on the books makes it reality but even if you craft a law that keeps guns out of the hands of 99.99999% of the population that still leaves a number (in a population of hundreds of millions) well above those who are mass murderers each year. and so the idea that ANY country has made it impossible by passing laws is just fantasy

The only solution I see as possible (and I am not even sure it is) is to modernize guns and remove and destroy over time all older guns. Replace them with guns that are blocked from working in public areas (think dead cell phone because service is blocked by interference).

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

For obvious and good reasons we concentrate on the number of victims at a time like this (and the age which makes this even more horrific) but when we talk solutions we at least need to recognize the number of perpetrators.

We can all talk about ban on guns like putting one on the books makes it reality but even if you craft a law that keeps guns out of the hands of 99.99999% of the population that still leaves a number (in a population of hundreds of millions) well above those who are mass murderers each year. and so the idea that ANY country has made it impossible by passing laws is just fantasy

The only solution I see as possible (and I am not even sure it is) is to modernize guns and remove and destroy over time all older guns. Replace them with guns that are blocked from working in public areas (think dead cell phone because service is blocked by interference).

So police can't protect the public, and a criminal can shoot you in a public place? Nobody seems to learn. Phones, utilities, networks, disks, computers have ALL been blocked as you say, and ALL were broken by the bad guys.

Steve

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Mike Anthony

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

So police can't protect the public, and a criminal can shoot you in a public place? Nobody seems to learn. Phones, utilities, networks, disks, computers have ALL been blocked as you say, and ALL were broken by the bad guys.

Steve

oh please. Think a little bit through a new idea before accusing people of never learning. No one ever suggested that anything would be unbreakable (or even universal to stop cops with overrides) but seriously comparing disks, phones etc to this is ridiculous.

There are examples of technologies that can (of course) be broken but just present too much of a barrier for anything but experts. The people locking and loading an blowing people away and then themselves are not comparable to your local sensible but financially motivated criminals much less high tech criminals. This kid was trained in silliness by his mom who loved guns not high tech hacking. Its too easy for wackos to get this stuff and implement a shooting spree plan. It requires no high level training. A law won't change it anymore than laws have eradicated the senselessness of drunk driving homicides (and yeah cars that wont start in the presence of alcohol would save lives as well).

I can't tell the last time anyone tried to break into a bank vault. Robbers all attempt to rob banks while the vault is open or cash is on the floor. Why? because they can't be broken into? NO but because outside of the movies and televisions shows the bar is just set too high to break into one for the average criminal. Many codes can only be broken by high level experts. The point is not to create something unbreakable but to set the bar sufficiently high that the few people who do get this idea in their head can't carry out there plans with their level of education.

Bottom line is

Laws don't mean spit to people prepared to kill themselves so if you want to see things like this drastically reduced you have to put something into place that stops them cold. there are only two options

an effective way to disarm them or arm others to take them out. I don't think you will ever stop it from happening ever but we can get to the place where its some years in between these actions - not months. Maybe we should think of putting all new schools besides police precincts as well.

The other side of the issue is that there are a plethora of killings (not mass killings) that take place where the presence of weapons greatly escalates emotionally charged arguments resulting in things happening that would not had the person had the time to cool down - so handing out more guns may not be the answer either.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

oh please. Think a little bit through a new idea before accusing people of never learning. No one ever suggested that anything would be unbreakable (or even universal to stop cops with overrides) but seriously comparing disks, phones etc to this is ridiculous.

There is no difference. I have not heard ******ONE****** new idea. So much has been tried over the last century. and so many things have been tried, retried and retried again, and they OFTEN claim they are NEW. SOMETIMES, they even PATENT them. My favorite is the wheel that was patented recently. YEAH, the SAME wheel that was on the chariots spoken of so long ago, and illustrated in the pyramids!

And YEAH, you're right! Making disks and phones secure is easier than making a physical device, such as a gun, secure. A physical device is something you can see, easily reverse engineer, and work with. A disk could be made to appear WORTHLESS until you have like 50% figured out. as can be a phone. Nothing to see or easily reverse engineer. I once cracked a disk, and it took me over an hour, as I recall, to realize that the main bootstrap was loaded into the keyboard buffer! They only way to crack it was somehow figure it out 100%(nearly impossible), or trick it into loading in another part, which was what I did. They probably thought THAT would be good.

I once knew a guy that was not all that bright, etc... He followed around some people that the computer industry was AFRAID OF! One, when he was arrested, was denied access to phones because they were afraid he would trigger a disaster. Anyway, that guy that wasn't too bright, was kicked off CSUNS(Cal Stat Northridge) campus. That didn't stop him. He got full access to their main computer system. That guy that was arrested and denied access to phones is now the head of a security firm. I don't know about the other, though he tried to make people believe he was guiltless, and turned in the other guy.

Oh well, the point is that your theory about criminals having a so much harder time is just not shown through the past history. I would LOVE to hear a new method. I have just heard so many methods. I once even checked disk theory, and worked to make a protected disk. Some kids break such encryption as a HOBBY! When I was a kid, most crackers were like 13-22! THAT was when computers weren't very common. The last time I encrypted things, in a program I wrote, I used several paths and methods. STILL, there are some patterns. if someone succeeded with one pass, and they had experience, they would know they were a step closer. Each step was difficult, and used various keys, and every record was encrypted differently, but *I* could, if given the time, decrypt it, and I am not an expert. My goal was only due diligence, and to delay it. If someone dared say "YOUR RECORDS WERE STOLEN" or "YOU DIDN'T ENCRYPT", I could just ask them to tell me even one person on the planet with an equal decryption, and they couldn't do it. And decrypting one record was little help for the rest.

Steve

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

More people drown in swimming pools each year than are killed by guns - many of them children.

I haven't yet seen anyone advocate getting rid of swimming pools.

Don't know where that comes from.

Drownings:

From 2005-2009, there were an average of 3,533 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day. An additional 347 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.

Shootings:

Between 2000 and 2008, a total of 272,590 people died of gunshot injuries in the United States--an average of 30,288 gun deaths per year, a number shocking by comparison to any other developed country. During that same time period, an estimated 617,488 people suffered nonfatal gunshot injuries in the United States. The total number of people shot in 2008 totaled 110,215--the highest total recorded during the nine-year period surveyed in the analysis.

The fact that people compare accidents to homicides with ridiculous statements like: we should ban cars, we should ban swimming pools, we should ban f*&ing balconies is pathetic. What have accidents got to do with murder and massacres?

Wanna know why there are so many shootings? To many guns. Simple!

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

The fact that people compare accidents to homicides with ridiculous statements like: we should ban cars, we should ban swimming pools, we should ban f*&ing balconies is pathetic. What have accidents got to do with murder and massacres?

Wanna know why there were so many shootings? To many guns. Simple!

Well, YOU used accidents ALSO! The 10 drowning a day statistic sounds low. For the entire NATION? REALLY? Maybe it is because it is seasonal. The better part of HALF the US only uses pools about half the year.

And people HAVE gone over balconies on purpose! I have personally seen people dive into pools from several floors up. I am always amazed they don't hit bottom, but HAVE heard of people doing so.

Still, one wonders about statistics. As I said earlier, the ones you are using ARE BIASED! It is like checking income details in 1929 in the US and saying everyone now is poor, out of a jobb, etc.... and the us is unable to fight a war, doesn't have computers, etc.... That is fact. As for if they are somehow changed? Who knows! I heard one statistic that was LUDICROUS! I saw a "POLL", and a BAD one at that, used to derive the statistic that could NOT be done with a poll. A couple days ago I read an article by an investigator that checked into it. The poll was INTENDED to be biased, was used for a purpose, people were hand picked to fit the desired results, the organization name was FAKED, and it would never be published in any scientific papers, etc... because of all the details. But it WAS published in newpapers, etc... to try to destroy their competition! And some take that as fact even though it destroys nearly every other argument they make! FUNNY!

That's another thing too, do the shootings exclude military families? Some people can be careless and that ALONE could mess with stats. The US likely has more military people working on that level, even as a percentage, than most other countries on the planet.

Steve

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by seasoned

Still, one wonders about statistics. As I said earlier, they ARE BIASED! That is fact.
Steve

Not fact. These statistics are not biased. Gun nuts are biased.
110,215 people were shot in one year. That is fact. What's biased about it?

Is this biased as well? U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's (U.S makes up less than 5% of the world's population) 875 million known firearms!
Don't some of you even consider the notion that this could be a teeny weeny problem? If not, then god save us all.

Between 2000 and 2008, a total of 272,590 people died of gunshot injuries in the United States--an average of 30,288 gun deaths per year, a number shocking by comparison to any other developed country. During that same time period, an estimated 617,488 people suffered nonfatal gunshot injuries in the United States. The total number of people shot in 2008 totaled 110,215--the highest total recorded during the nine-year period surveyed in the analysis.

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MissTerraK

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Not fact. These statistics are not biased. Gun nuts are biased.
110,215 people were shot in one year. That is fact. What's biased about it?

Is this biased as well? U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms!
Don't some of you even consider the notion that this could be a teeny weeny problem? If not, then god save us all.

Between 2000 and 2008, a total of 272,590 people died of gunshot injuries in the United States--an average of 30,288 gun deaths per year, a number shocking by comparison to any other developed country. During that same time period, an estimated 617,488 people suffered nonfatal gunshot injuries in the United States. The total number of people shot in 2008 totaled 110,215--the highest total recorded during the nine-year period surveyed in the analysis.

Bravo,

Do you happen to have the statistics of how many of those were innocent victims? Not including gang on gang shootings, criminals being shot by either police or by someone else acting in self defense and drug war shootings? I mean completely innocent victims not involved in any type of criminal activity?

I'm very curious about those stats.

Terra

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

You need to cite your sources. That seems pretty cooked to me.

Here are a couple of links that might be of interest:

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/fadeathwithrates65-04.pdf

VPC - The Violence Policy Center
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- MissTerraK 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bravo75
  
  Here are a couple of links that might be of interest:
  
  http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/fadeathwithrates65-04.pdf
  
  Hmmmm,
  
  Your stats show suicide as the number one category of gun related deaths, not homicide and the homicide numbers don't separate drug or gang related deaths either.
  
  The numbers in all categories increase from the sixties to the two thousands, but that makes sense as the population has increased as well...
  
  Terra
  
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Tom B Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

A lot of Americans have their heads to far up their own arses to realize what is going on. Sometimes it takes outsiders to open ones mind.

Ah, so you're arrogant enough to show the way. I feel safer already.
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- bravo75 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  Ah, so you're arrogant enough to show the way. I feel safer already.
  
  The smug, arrogant stance is coming from your substandard comments.
  The "how- dare- you- point- a- finger- at- my- country" club are really out in force.
  No wonder there are more murders in the U.S than all countries in the western hemisphere combined. Reading some of the comments here, I'm not surprised.
  
  Such arrogance.
  
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bravo75

13 years ago

The gun that killed those children is one gun to many in circulation in the U.S.
To the pro gun crowd: you sound like a bunch of kids are about to have their wii console taken away from them.
My suggestion is to scrap the second amendment, confiscate all guns. Hand out 15 years sentences to anyone caught illegally carrying firearms. Security will need to be beefed up.

This will take time to implement but eventually, you will see a decrease in shootings. And to all the gun loving rednecks: Tough shit. This is 2012, guns don't belong in the hands of the civilization population, period. This is not the fu*&ing Waltons.

Every day, 270 people in America, 47 of them children and teens
are shot in murders, assaults, suicides, accidents, and police intervention.
Every day, 87 people die from gun violence, 33 of them murdered.
Every day, 8 children and teens die from gun violence.
Every day, 183 people are shot, but survive their gun injuries.
Every day, 38 children and teens are shot, but survive their gun injuries.

You're not going to take evil out of people, but you can sure as hell reduce the capability of causing 100,000 deaths a year by changing gun laws.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/...2009_FINAL.pdf

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MissTerraK

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

The gun that killed those children is one gun to many in circulation in the U.S.
To the pro gun crowd: you sound like a bunch of kids are about to have their wii console taken away from them.
My suggestion is to scrap the second amendment, confiscate all guns. Hand out 15 years sentences to anyone caught illegally carrying firearms. Security will need to be beefed up...

And to all the gun loving rednecks: Tough shit. This is 2012, guns don't belong in the hands of the civilization population, period. This is not the fu*&ing Waltons...

You're not going to take evil out of people, but you can sure as hell reduce the capability of causing 100,000 deaths a year by changing gun laws.

Let me give you a different perspective on gun owners in the US. My perspective...

I come from a family that are avid gun collectors. We have guns that have been in the family dating back to the revolutionary war that have been passed down from generations. My father owned that collection and added to it.

He was an avid sportsman as well. Way back when I was a little girl, he got laid off from GM and our family ate because he used some of those guns to put food on the table. We survived by eating venison, duck, rabbit, pheasant, goose, squirrel, quail, etc.

Over and beyond that, he taught gun safety for the state and taught marksmanship at shooting ranges. I was taught to shoot and trust me, I am a crack shot! Do I like to shoot living things? Heck no!

When I became old enough to go hunting with him, I shot and killed a pheasant and bawled my eyes out for hours! I haven't been hunting since, but I occasionally went to the shooting range with him up to the day he left us just shy of 5 years ago, which brings me to my point.

He left that massive gun collection to me of all people, and it is worth a lot of money!

I will fight tooth and nail to protect my right to own guns! I don't care if the powers that be offered me 5 times the value, nope, not going to give them up! It isn't about the money at all! It is sentimental value, family history and so, so many wonderful childhood memories. It is about my dad.

Not all gun owners are murderers or own guns to kill people.

Talk about being a bunch of kids! You naughty, naughty kid! You jumped out of the swing, landed on another kid and hurt him badly so from now on, there will be no more playground equipment and you can spend your recess time cleaning blackboard erasers! No one will ever get hurt on a playground again! :rolleyes:

Terra

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

Let me give you a different perspective on gun owners in the US. My perspective...

I come from a family that are avid gun collectors. We have guns that have been in the family dating back to the revolutionary war that have been passed down from generations. My father owned that collection and added to it.

He was an avid sportsman as well. Way back when I was a little girl, he got laid off from GM and our family ate because he used some of those guns to put food on the table. We survived by eating venison, duck, rabbit, pheasant, goose, squirrel, quail, etc.

Over and beyond that, he taught gun safety for the state and taught marksmanship at shooting ranges. I was taught to shoot and trust me, I am a crack shot! Do I like to shoot living things? Heck no!

When I became old enough to go hunting with him, I shot and killed a pheasant and bawled my eyes out for hours! I haven't been hunting since, but I occasionally went to the shooting range with him up to the day he left us just shy of 5 years ago, which brings me to my point.

He left that massive gun collection to me of all people, and it is worth a lot of money!

I will fight tooth and nail to protect my right to own guns! I don't care if the powers that be offered me 5 times the value, nope, not going to give them up! It isn't about the money at all! It is sentimental value, family history and so, so many wonderful childhood memories. It is about my dad.

Not all gun owners are murderers or own guns to kill people.

Talk about being a bunch of kids! You naughty, naughty kid! You jumped out of the swing, landed on another kid and hurt him badly so from now on, there will be no more playground equipment and you can spend your recess time cleaning blackboard erasers! No one will ever get hurt on a playground again! :rolleyes:

Terra

I hear what you're saying Terra, and you're right, it's not fair to the innocent
people who own guns, would never hurt anybody, only have them for
sentimental value, or whatever other reason that has nothing to do with
shooting people, or anything for that matter.

But something has to be done somewhere. This country can't go on about
its business the way it has. It has been 13 years since Columbine. How long
does it take to make serious reform or put whatever measures need to be
put in place to stop this from happening? This is to all the people saying that
the government IS doing something.

Or, is the honest truth simply that this can't be stopped, that there is nothing
realistically that we can do?

Is this the world that we have to accept and live in?

That's all I want, is an answer to that question. Because anybody who tells
me that something is being done, I'm not buying it simply because I'm not
seeing any evidence of it.

So again I ask, is this the world that we have to accept and live in?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

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MissTerraK

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I hear what you're saying Terra, and you're right, it's not fair to the innocent
people who own guns, would never hurt anybody, only have them for
sentimental value, or whatever other reason that has nothing to do with
shooting people, or anything for that matter.

But something has to be done somewhere. This country can't go on about
its business the way it has. It has been 13 years since Columbine. How long
does it take to make serious reform or put whatever measures need to be
put in place to stop this from happening? This is to all the people saying that
the government IS doing something.

Or, is the honest truth simply that this can't be stopped, that there is nothing
realistically that we can do?

Is this the world that we have to accept and live in?

That's all I want, is an answer to that question. Because anybody who tells
me that something is being done, I'm not buying it simply because I'm not
seeing any evidence of it.

So again I ask, is this the world that we have to accept and live in?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

I'm not sure there is a simple yes or no answer to those questions, Steve.

I'm quite confident that if guns were outlawed, something else would rise up to take their place. Murder has been happening since Cain and Abel and unfortunately will continue til the end of this world.

It's not guns or any other weapon of mass destruction that actually is the root behind killings but the condition of the souls that reside in mankind and that my friend, we do have to accept and live with.

And trust me, just saying that does bring tears to my eyes.

Terra

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So again I ask, is this the world that we have to accept and live in?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

Yes.

Murders, wars, massacres, genocide etc. have been around since the dawn of time. We are a degenerate species.
What you do not do, is give members of this species a right to carry tools designed to kill another member of this species with the pull of a trigger.

100,000 deaths by shooting in 2011 should be enough for any clear thinking individual to realize that the second amendment has to be scrapped.
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DubDubDubDot 13 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

I come from a family that are avid gun collectors. We have guns that have been in the family dating back to the revolutionary war

Fair enough.

What would you say about banning the sale of newly manufactured guns and ammo to the public? That would allow collectors to keep their guns.

Increasing scrutiny during background checks is not a solution. This kid took his mom's guns and she presumably would have been able to obtain the guns no matter how difficult the background check.

Then you have the huge problem that only 5% of gun crimes are committed by the original owner of the gun. The other 95% are stolen or borrowed or they paid cash in a private sale to get around the background check.
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- MissTerraK 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot
  
  Fair enough.
  
  What would you say about banning the sale of newly manufactured guns and ammo to the public? That would allow collectors to keep their guns.
  
  If it were the ammo for the newly manufactured guns, I may go for it. But not all ammo simply because there are shooters who are sportsman and shoot various targets solely for sport and competition.
  
  I can't give you a yes or no answer without seriously thinking about it for a long, long, while.
  
  I certainly don't like the thought of freedoms or rights being stripped from people. The quote from Ben Franklin comes to mind ~ Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.
  
  I still believe banning guns will not stop mass murders.
  
  Terra
  
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  Tom B Banned 13 years ago
  
  The gun control people crack me up. Especially people from other countries trying to tell us where we failed. For the record, I am not into guns myself.
  
  So let's look at their main argument.
  
  If you take away guns you will avoid mass killings. Sound like a bandaid approach to a problem.
  
  So if two kids get killed by a knife we outlaw knives... Nope, the response would be, at least he didn't have a gun and killed 10. By your reasoning two deaths is acceptable compared to 10.
  
  So if a place gets blown up by a bomb made with every day products. Well, at least it was more difficult for him to build a bomb compared to easily getting a gun. Sounds reasonable... wait, no it doesn't.
  
  There is something fundamentally wrong with our society. Gun control isn't addressing it. I have a feeling these things will continue to happen and no gun control will stop them. If people want to kill they will find a way. We are not talking about people who were sitting on the couch eating pizza suddenly deciding it would be cool to shoot a ton of people today.
  
  Comparing countries and gun policy is so stupid that it makes me want to cry from the stupidity. Our cultures are different if you haven't noticed. I love Australia and was fortunate enough to live there but that doesn't mean I want the US to become more like them.
  
  Please stop being stupid and just show condolences to the families that lost something that very few can imagine.
  
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vivo

13 years ago

Why don't we ban big pharma drugs after shootings? And why don't we push for reform in our mental health system? Apparently, he had a personality disorder. Maybe we don't treat the lesser among us with enough respect?

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seasoned

13 years ago

WOW! As one person said and this IS a quote "You never want a serious crisis to go to waste".

Well all I have to say is that this country(the US) would have been gone almost the moment it said it wanted to be. If it were substantially different, WWI and WWII probably would have been lost. If what you wanted were done then. HECK, many on this board would never have been BORN.(REMEMBER, this affects Europe, Africa, and possibly ASIA too!) and ALL that if the laws you want were in place on or before 1775(probably even earlier, because there were skirmishes, etc... Most are probably gone in history being relatively private and never having been written down).

I hate the idea of thugs coming in with guns, and mass murders, just as much as YOU guys. I would LOVE it if there were a way to level the playing field, make it more difficult, or even just limit the carnage. I can't think of a SINGLE way. Of course, if guns were gone, something like fort hood could EASILY have been worse. They have some explosives now that could NEVER be used in guns. WHY? Because they could blow the gun apart, kill the shooter, and kill everyone around him for like yards around, probably even more. Imagine if more were in structural areas of a building that were populated. If it didn't kill everyone in the building directly, the collapsing building would.

As for steven wagenheims talk about having a "paid militia"(certainly IRONIC HERE) go in and search for and confiscate all weapons, they tried that EXACT thing with alcohol in prohibition. It didn't work! Etc.... Do you really want strangers coming into YOUR home and searching? Think of all the OBVIOUS places they must search. That includes under the refrigerator, behind the refrigerator, in all the cabinets, drawers, racks, and closets, under seat cushions, under pillows, under mattresses, in the attack, in the basement, etc... and I am just getting started. And those are just the OBVIOUS places. Things like glocks, and metal supports, make metal detectors unreliable. Of course all that violates the constitution. We might as well rip it up NOW, because it seems that by 2020 it will be GONE.

I like the idea about reporting mental illness, but what IS a mental illness? So many people are misdiagnosed, etc... If A guy says he saw a UFO he may get locked up, but who HASN'T seen a UFO? I mean UFO does NOT mean there are aliens. Even if it did, maybe they WERE aliens. Maybe they LOOKED like aliens. I once saw snow on ONE street in New Jersey. Just ONE! And it was substantial, covering a lot of cars, etc... One might have thought I was crazy. It was done for a movie. They expected snow to be there, and needed it for the movie.

And whateverpedias understanding of the way the US is run is off kilter. I would LOVE TRUE universal health care, but we will likely never have it. One wonders if anyone really does. I mean my uncle lives in denmark, and things were rationed for HIM. Another from India posted here and spoke of how HE may die. Of course you guys STILL have more than we will. And my uncle eventually WAS operated on, even though it took so long for him to hear if he would. And many insurance companies, probably seeing the same parts of that bill that I did, have raised their rates. Some by at least 50%! The SAME thing happened in CA when they came up with an arbitrary across the board reduction on auto insurance. The law that passed was written by the insurers and originally only brought rates down to what they had been before the law was proposed. Incidentally, guns sell like hotcakes when there is talk about them being banned! Oh well, prices go up, so the poorer people can't afford them. There IS a market in tainted guns for the poor. I heard on one report, indexed to mine for comparison, that they cost about 1/40th of retail. as I said, they are tainted, like they are stolen, imported illegally, or used in a crime, etc....

Well, I have said my piece and will leave it at that. I hope you consider it, even if I know you won't.

Steve

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

I'm done on this topic.

Listening to "bravo" is just getting on my nerves.

If you don't like the US gun laws, dont come here.

But I'll be damned if I give up mine. I'm not some lunatic who people should be worried about.

The only person who should be worried about my guns, is the person who tries to break in my shit.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

I'm done on this topic.

Listening to "bravo" is just getting on my nerves.

If you don't like the US gun laws, dont come here.

But I'll be damned if I give up mine. I'm not some lunatic who people should be worried about.

The only person who should be worried about my guns, is the person who tries to break in my shit.

Good, go and polish your gun.

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Tom B

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

I'm done on this topic.

Listening to "bravo" is just getting on my nerves.

If you don't like the US gun laws, dont come here.

But I'll be damned if I give up mine. I'm not some lunatic who people should be worried about.

The only person who should be worried about my guns, is the person who tries to break in my shit.

No reason to let some anonymous guy get to you. I just find it funny listening to him telling people what their problems are and how to fix it.

Now we are a nation of murderers because we don't agree with him.

Not only that, but we need someone from another country to show us the way to happy living. The minute someone brought up the sheer amount of crime in UK he changes the subject saying that isn't what we are talking about.

Ah, you have to laugh at the stupid comments and not let him get under your skin.

I am sure if we had gun control this murderer would have just stayed at home and twiddled his thumbs.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Now we are a nation of murderers because we don't agree with him.

America is breeding people who think it's normal to shoot other people, thanks to your wonderful right to legally shoot people to defend yourself. What happens then?

It breeds psychopaths who don't know that they are and who think their psychopathy is righteous because your laws and culture allow it. It breeds people who can't wait for an occasion to kill someone because they think it's right and who don't see how f%$king wrong it is because your laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous. You people are fu%$ed up in the head and you don't even see it. That's how batshit it is.

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Tom B

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

America is breeding people who think it's normal to shoot other people, thanks to your wonderful right to legally shoot people to defend yourself. What happens then?

It breeds psychopaths who don't know that they are and who think their psychopathy is righteous because your laws and culture allow it. It breeds people who can't wait for an occasion to kill someone because they think it's right and who don't see how f% wrong it is because your laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous. You people are fu% up in the head and you don't even see it. That's how batshit it is.

It must be true if an outsider says so. haha

Well, I already stated there is something seriously wrong in our society that needs to be addressed. We have too many kids being over prescribed anti depressants and other mood enhancing drugs. If that doesn't tell you something is wrong, I don't know what would.

I would rather address that issue then to try and legislate our way out of problems. It doesn't work that way.

Maybe you need to work out some issues yourself. It doesn't look sane to be condemning a whole country for the actions of a few. Unless it is the part of not agreeing with you that makes us all psychos then I would be extremely happy you don't have access to firearms.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Maybe you need to work out some issues yourself.

You're bang on the money. I do have issues. I have issues with reading about 20 children being massacred senselessly and then reading posts by people saying how much they love their guns, and how dare a none U.S citizen point his finger at us and tell us we have a gun problem. Or even worse, god forbid, telling us our beloved guns should be outlawed.

I have big issues with this.

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Tom B

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

You're bang on the money. I do have issues. I have issues with reading about 20 children being massacred senselessly and then reading posts by people saying how much they love their guns, and how dare a none U.S citizen point his finger at us and tell us we have a gun problem.

I have big issues with this.

I will vote for you in the next presidential election so you can save us.

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

I will vote for you in the next presidential election so you can save us.

Presidential elections will do no good. It's ignorant, smug mindsets like yours that should be addressed.
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- Tom B Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bravo75
  
  Presidential elections will do no good. It's ignorant, smug mindsets like yours that should be addressed.
  
  That isn't a good way to get my vote.
  
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  bravo75 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  That isn't a good way to get my vote.
  
  Well, shoot me, why don't ya?
  
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  Tom B Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by bravo75
  
  Well, shoot me, why don't ya?
  
  Sorry bud, I don't own any guns. You will have to ask Who's That Guru to help you out.
  
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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

America is breeding people who think it's normal to shoot other people, thanks to your wonderful right to legally shoot people to defend yourself. What happens then?

It breeds psychopaths who don't know that they are and who think their psychopathy is righteous because your laws and culture allow it. It breeds people who can't wait for an occasion to kill someone because they think it's right and who don't see how f% wrong it is because your laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous. You people are fu% up in the head and you don't even see it. That's how batshit it is.

Guns are not the cause.

Just like cars are not the cause for drunk drivers killing people.

People here don't think it's "normal" to shoot people. I don't know how you come up with this stuff :confused:

Advocating for gun rights does NOT breed psychopaths. In fact, further to what I said above, I think it has a LOT more to do with drugs than anything else.

We have issues here. Guns are not the cause. They are a symptom.

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

I hear this analogy a lot. OK, so cars don't kill, it's the drunk drivers. So what do we do to prevent drunk drivers. We educate people about the dangers of drunk driving. We create laws to penalize drunk drivers and enforce them. We require people get a license and insurance to drive a car. We take away the right to drive for those who abuse the laws. I guess that can be called "car control". Whatever you want to call it the deaths from drunk drivers have fallen significantly since these laws and solutions were enacted. The only difference I can see is that the car industry doesn't have an organization like the NRA fighting these reforms/solutions every step of the way.

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Guns are not the cause.

Just like cars are not the cause for drunk drivers killing people.

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garyv

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I hear this analogy a lot. OK, so cars don't kill, it's the drunk drivers. So what do we do to prevent drunk drivers. We educate people about the dangers of drunk driving. We create laws to penalize drunk drivers and enforce them. We require people get a license and insurance to drive a car. We take away the right to drive for those who abuse the laws. I guess that can be called "car control". Whatever you want to call it the deaths from drunk drivers have fallen significantly since these laws and solutions were enacted. The only difference I can see is that the car industry doesn't have an organization like the NRA fighting these reforms/solutions every step of the way.

And yet we never pass laws to take away their alcohol.

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Tom B Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

And yet we never pass laws to take away their alcohol.

We did and it didn't work out very well.
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- garyv 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap
  
  We did and it didn't work out very well.
  
  Yes because that's obviously not the answer.
  
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TimPhelan

13 years ago

Well, if they go to prison for manslaughter they can't buy too many cases of Bud.

Originally Posted by garyv

And yet we never pass laws to take away their alcohol.

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Tom B

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Well, if they go to prison for manslaughter they can't buy too many cases of Bud.

lol Tim, I don't know if that was a joke or not but still funny. I am not aware of people in prison for manslaughter buying guns either. I thought the whole premise was to stop the action before it happens.

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

It was a joke, but was also addressing a flawed analogy.

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

lol Tim, I don't know if that was a joke or not but still funny. I am not aware of people in prison for manslaughter buying guns either. I thought the whole premise was to stop the action before it happens.

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Steven Wagenheim 13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Well, if they go to prison for manslaughter they can't buy too many cases of Bud.

Tim, the problem is, these lunatics that go around shooting up malls and schools
end up taking their own lives. They don't care about punishment. They already
went into this expecting to die. You can't deter that kind of thinking.

That's why I agree that the root of the problem needs to be addressed. Guns
are just the means to an ends.

As far as how to address the root of the problem "realistically", I have no idea.

We could sterilize everybody who comes from a family with a history of mental
illness or ancestors who have committed violet crimes (these nut cases had to
come from somewhere) but somehow I don't think that's enforceable.

I don't have an answer. Not really. What I do know is I'm tired of reading
about young lives that are ended before they ever had a chance to begin.

I think that's something we all can agree on, regardless of which side of the
fence we're on.
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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

I hear this analogy a lot. OK, so cars don't kill, it's the drunk drivers. So what do we do to prevent drunk drivers. We educate people about the dangers of drunk driving. We create laws to penalize drunk drivers and enforce them. We require people get a license and insurance to drive a car. We take away the right to drive for those who abuse the laws. I guess that can be called "car control". Whatever you want to call it the deaths from drunk drivers have fallen significantly since these laws and solutions were enacted. The only difference I can see is that the car industry doesn't have an organization like the NRA fighting these reforms/solutions every step of the way.

Tim, it's interesting you pick out some of the most inconsequential or innocuous statements out of posts like mine, yet choose to either willingly ignore or simply don't see blatant errors in posts that quote highly inaccurate stats but happen to favor your side's viewpoint (speaking specifically about the 100,000 gun deaths BS number spouted several times).

Is that on purpose?

FWIW, I have stated several times that I think we have major gun issues. I agree also that changes need to be made. I agree people ARE working on an answer. But I don't think removal of guns from honest citizens is the answer. And I don't own one...

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

I know, as I was writing that last one I was thinking "Mike's going to think I am picking on him". haha. Don't mean to be doing that buddy.

That drunk drivers analogy has been brought up many times and I just wanted to kind of give my take on it as I just don't think it works well.

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Tim, it's interesting you pick out some of the most inconsequential or innocuous statements out of posts like mine, yet choose to either willingly ignore or simply don't see blatant errors in posts that quote highly inaccurate stats but happen to favor your side's viewpoint (speaking specifically about the 100,000 gun deaths BS number spouted several times).

Is that on purpose?

FWIW, I have stated several times that I think we have major gun issues. I agree also that changes need to be made. I agree people ARE working on an answer. But I don't think removal of guns from honest citizens is the answer. And I don't own one...

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Seems to me that when someone owns a vehicle and pays for the road with his taxes, he should be able to do with his property as he pleases.

You wouldn't be saying that if some pissed up booze hound ran over your kid.

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Tom B

Banned 13 years ago

OK, let's say we find that people in the US are too drugged out and shouldn't have access to guns.

Now that is settled and we all go on with our drugged induced lives.

Wait, a person just bombed a building using fertilizer. We can't have that and it is obvious people cannot be trusted around fertilizer. Now, everyone's plants start dying and we need more drugs to help compensate for our depression from our wilted plants.

Still, life goes on even if it is a little bit slower.

Wait, a person got into a car and ran over a group of people.

Obviously this isn't going to work. We need to save lives and the people of the US is not responsible enough for cars. We need to revoke all cars and institute a global bus system.

So how far do you want to go? This stuff is a slippery slope.

Look at NDAA, TSA, car checkpoints for immigration and drunk driving, etc... I sure hear a lot of complaints from foreigners on how they are being treated by TSA. Don't they understand it is for their own good and safety?

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

OK, let's say we find that people in the US are too drugged out and shouldn't have access to guns.

Now that is settled and we all go on with our drugged induced lives.

Wait, a person just bombed a building using fertilizer. We can't have that and it is obvious people cannot be trusted around fertilizer. Now, everyone's plants start dying and we need more drugs to help compensate for our depression from our wilted plants.

Still, life goes on even if it is a little bit slower.

Wait, a person got into a car and ran over a group of people.

Obviously this isn't going to work. We need to save lives and the people of the US is not responsible enough for cars. We need to revoke all cars and institute a global bus system.

So how far do you want to go? This stuff is a slippery slope.

Look at NDAA, TSA, car checkpoints for immigration and drunk driving, etc... I sure hear a lot of complaints from foreigners on how they are being treated by TSA. Don't they understand it is for their own good and safety?

Yep.. did you know that heart attacks kill more people each year in the US alone, than guns do world-wide?

Oh shit.. time to ban McDonalds..

/sarcasm

lmfao give me a break!!

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap

Look at NDAA, TSA, car checkpoints for immigration and drunk driving, etc... I sure hear a lot of complaints from foreigners on how they are being treated by TSA. Don't they understand it is for their own good and safety?

The TSA is NOT about safety!

If they were 100% effective, and caught EVERYTHING, and searched the terrorists via XRAY and metal detectors adjusted to find 1 molecule of metal of any sort over that in the persons body, and they went through and had a 24 hour isolation and quarantine drinking only phospho soda, and replaced the clothes with hand woven good they knitted themselves, it STILL wouldn't have prevented 9/11! It was an INSIDE JOB! BTW a 24 hour isolation and quarantine drinking phospho soda would reveal mule activity among other things. It is basically an 18th century colonoscopy/colonic! I actually timed it with me! The average time it takes is 3.5 hours. They ask you to do it 24 hours before a colonoscopy.

The FACT is that they are FAR from 100%, catch little, and probably nothing of value, and they have crazy rules to lessen the effectiveness of what they do, but their ideas are flawed ANYWAY! Recently, a 12yo crippled girl, on her way for special surgery, was stopped because she supposedly had "bomb residue". and there is no way they can test for bomb residue. They probably, and I believe I heard that they do, test for certain chemicals, like maybe sulfur. This means there could be a lot of false hits. But they seem to not consider such things. You know, they never DID test the chair! It could have had many POUNDS of C4!

I once was not allowed to take sealed commercial products through security, but the woman behind me took an ENTIRE SUITCASE of liquid cosmetics! SEXIST, UNFAIR, STUPID! And I could have opened the bottle in front of them and drunk it. They WOULD have accepted that if I drank EVERYTHING, but even 5/6 would not be acceptable.

BTW for maybe a week or two they were serious. NOW they aren't. I was in LAX when a guy almost got shot, by a military armed guard, because he was going to a parking lot that was forbidden for the public to use! I was going to FWA when thy searched every car, and limited traffic.

Of course, EVEN THEN, the airports violated FAA rules, in place for DECADES, to protect jetway access. And they are STILL violating those rules.

Steve

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

The idea of arresting someone for something they MIGHT do is disgusting. We've already opened that door with ridiculous drunk driving laws. It's time to shut it back tight.

By the way, the drunk driving laws have done nothing at all to cut down on highway deaths. All they've really done is put a lot of people with drinking problems behind bars.

Alcoholism is a medical problem. Should we start putting people in jail for driving with emphysema?

Seems to me that when someone owns a vehicle and pays for the road with his taxes, he should be able to do with his property as he pleases.

So let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're saying that people
should be allowed to drive drunk? I just want to make sure that I'm understanding
you correctly.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

So let me make sure I understand you correctly. You're saying that people
should be allowed to drive drunk? I just want to make sure that I'm understanding
you correctly.

I was a little taken aback by this statement as well.

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

Good grief. I don't know what to make of that one Ken. haha. Reminds me of a quote from the late comedian Sam Kinison about driving drunk:

"We don’t WANT to drink and drive… But there’s no other way to get the f*cking CAR back to the HOUSE!! How are we supposed to get f*cking home??!!"

By the way, Sam was killed by a drunk driver.

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

The idea of arresting someone for something they MIGHT do is disgusting. We've already opened that door with ridiculous drunk driving laws. It's time to shut it back tight.

By the way, the drunk driving laws have done nothing at all to cut down on highway deaths. All they've really done is put a lot of people with drinking problems behind bars.

Alcoholism is a medical problem. Should we start putting people in jail for driving with emphysema?

Seems to me that when someone owns a vehicle and pays for the road with his taxes, he should be able to do with his property as he pleases.

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Steven Wagenheim

13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

Good grief. I don't know what to make of that one Ken. haha. Reminds me of a quote from the late comedian Sam Kinison about driving drunk:

"We don't WANT to drink and drive... But there's no other way to get the f*cking CAR back to the HOUSE!! How are we supposed to get f*cking home??!!"

By the way, Sam was killed by a drunk driver.

Sam Kinison was one of the funniest guys I'd ever seen. His bit on planting food
in 3rd world countries was hysterical.

"It's a f**king desert! Nothing grows there!"

God rest his soul, he was so funny.

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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

"We don't WANT to drink and drive... But there's no other way to get the f*cking CAR back to the HOUSE!! How are we supposed to get f*cking home??!!"

I once had to drive someone to get his car, which was safely parked on the side of the street. I PUSHED and found out WHY! He was drunk the previous night and got a ride home.

And HEY, I wanted to have an exam that meant I had to be sedated. State law said I couldn't even take a TAXI home apparently, according to the hospital. So I was in another state with no friends I knew of, etc... I had a coworker drive me home. I took a taxi there.

In some areas, on certain days, and I guess sometimes normally, they actually PAY taxi drivers to take people home from bars.

So there ARE ways. Maybe they should remind those people on the many ads that speak of how they shouldn't drink and drive.

Steve
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LarryC

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

America is breeding people who think it's normal to shoot other people, thanks to your wonderful right to legally shoot people to defend yourself. What happens then?

It breeds psychopaths who don't know that they are and who think their psychopathy is righteous because your laws and culture allow it. It breeds people who can't wait for an occasion to kill someone because they think it's right and who don't see how f% wrong it is because your laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous. You people are fu% up in the head and you don't even see it. That's how batshit it is.

The laws do not allow psychopathy and the majority of people, even in the barbaric, gun-loving U.S., don't think mass murder is "right."

The point is that it's way too simplistic to blame guns. I would agree that culture has something to do with it -but this includes lots of things, such as the media, computer games, movies, the school system and, once again, an over-medicated population.

I'm not necessarily against all gun control, but when your solution involves storm troopers (who will surely have guns) going door to door confiscating guns, something is wrong with your thinking.

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Patrician

13 years ago

Originally Posted by LarryC

The point is that it's way too simplistic to blame guns. I would agree that culture has something to do with it -but this includes lots of things, such as the media, computer games, movies, the school system and, once again, an over-medicated population.

Don't forget probably the most significant - a loving relationship with your immediate family - You know, Dad? You've met him? Great. You mean Mom? Saw her this morning leaving for work.

I think this last one is a big factor in why these tragic circumstances are unfolding more so these days) - In the 'old days' Mom was home - (not her fault she needs to work). Even with intact 'nuclear' families, both parents are forced to work because money just doesn't happen for most like it used to be taken for granted. "Two car garage and Apple pie' -

Kids don't understand who what why - all they know is NOBODY IS THERE. If they are there, they DON'T UNDERSTAND them or their problems - Don't have time to care.

I have read that 'sociopaths' are classically people who were not properly socialized (duh) - and this is most critical in the FIRST THREE YEARS of life - If nobody ever held them or picked them up when they cried, or were 'social' with them. They will not know how to value society at large or have any conscience.

Nobody really CARED or so they assume. Maybe this is not an absolute and there are many other reasons people are sociopathic - but they also say that no matter what happens to them later, if the FIRST THREE YEARS were reasonably ok, then they will likely survive anything else that may happen going forward - because they have a FOUNDATION - They know they are loved. They BELONG.

It is the same with Gangs and Prisons - Very High percentage of men who didn't have a father. Did not have a 'whole' family - they find one in a Gang of similarly neglected kids of various degrees. SOMEBODY IS HOME.

Maybe some negligent parents will get a clue - Just providing 3 squares and bed is not ALL that makes a 'good home' - If you don't nourish them emotionally and psychologically, IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY ARE - (in their head as well as their physical presence) you may be playing with fire.

(again I realize there are no absolutes - you may have a horribly abused child who becomes a great citizen and father and son - something about their spirit that pulls them through and they actually want to make sure they don't make the same mistakes). Praise God for them! But statistically speaking you will find more kids without parents or remote parents who are in jail today - or on the news).

Get a Clue.

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garyv

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

America is breeding people who think it's normal to shoot other people, thanks to your wonderful right to legally shoot people to defend yourself. What happens then?

It breeds psychopaths who don't know that they are and who think their psychopathy is righteous because your laws and culture allow it. It breeds people who can't wait for an occasion to kill someone because they think it's right and who don't see how f% wrong it is because your laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous. You people are fu% up in the head and you don't even see it. That's how batshit it is.

Dude you are way out of line with that dribble. It wasn't that long ago that the Port Arthur massacre happened. It's well within your lifetime I'm sure - so am I to say that you are part of a generation that has bred psychopaths in your country? Give it a rest. The kid that did this was born with his mental condition. It's not a condition that you "breed" into someone.

And I'm not sure where you make the leap that defending yourself against deadly violence makes you a psychopath. It makes you alive is what it makes you.

I went to see the Hobbit last night (great movie by the way) - but right inside the lobby of our theater was a man standing watch with an obvious holstered hand-gun. And I guarantee you that this theater will never have a mass shooting occur.

The way we've stayed alive as a country for so long is by letting other countries know that we have the right and we do conceal weapons that would potentially annihilate them if they made the mistake of firing our way first.

I believe that same philosophy works at a more personal level as well.

Which is why you never hear of mass shootings at a gun show - even though there's obviously the easiest access to guns there. Hmmm....

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whateverpedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

It wasn't that long ago that the Port Arthur massacre happened. It's well within your lifetime I'm sure - so am I to say that you are part of a generation that has bred psychopaths in your country?

Just to clarify, Port Arthur happened in Australia (Tasmania to be precise), not the UK where bravo75 is sometimes located.

The reaction to that was the federal government banned ALL semi-automatic and automatic weapons, and an amnesty was offered for any unregistered guns that people had. There was even a modest payment made for each gun that was handed in, and people DID hand them in. As someone mentioned earlier (sorry, I can't remember who, and can't be bothered scrolling back - you know who you are though), we as a nation decided enough was enough. That kind of madness must never happen again.

Over the last two years or so, there have been an increased number of shootings, including drive-bys, but they are criminals shooting at other criminals.

You stand far more chance in Australia of being shot by police officers than by criminals or psychopaths.

There have also been a number of deaths from police using tasers as well, but that's another issue.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Good, go and polish your gun.

Will do.

Take care of your weapon, and it will take care of you.

See how easy it is to come up with short one-liners?

You're not the only one who can do that! lol

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

I know man.. I know..

But people like him clearly haven't put enough thought in to "gun control"

Ok, for the sake of your argument, lets say they are banned. There are no guns.

Someone wants to go out & hurt people. Innocent people.

But there are no guns.... what's a crazed killer to do??

Hm, I don't know - Maybe hijack an oil tanker & drive it into a building at 80 miles per hour, complete with fuel and all?

Because that would be a FAR worse disaster than yesterday's tragedy.

But hey! At least he didn't have access to a gun! Right??

Then what would happen? Would people be crying about a ban on fuel trucks???? NOPE.

I mean get real.. If someone wants to do something, they will find a way to do it.

As I've stated before, no piece of paper is going to stop some insane criminal from carrying out their evil deeds.

I believe that if someone, ANYONE in that school had been carrying yesterday - hell, even a JANITOR - this would have been averted, if not prevented entirely.

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annieflora

13 years ago

It is so sad. I can't even imagine what those parents are going true. Every time i listen to the news i cry knowing how innocent those babies were. I will continue to pray for the families

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MIB Mastermind

13 years ago

So sad, this brings bad horrible memories I have from the Dunblane shootings (I live 5 miles away) this tragedy sounds shockingly similar to what happened here, my heart goes out to all the families.

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Diversion52

13 years ago

I can't believe this keeps happening..

I have no idea what causes people to go off the deep end like this and go on a rampage. I live in Finland and there's now been 2 of these school shootings, one 2007 and another 2008. Considering this is a 6 million citizen country that feels like a lot.

We need to do is take care of all the people in our community and make sure people get the help they need. We need to be involved in our children's life, ensure good influences and make it extremely easy for everyone to reach for help. This cold and distant competitive lifestyle thing we have going on doesn't seem to be working out for anyone really. I trust we'll slowly come to our senses and see some change.

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DubDubDubDot

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Diversion52

I have no idea what causes people to go off the deep end like this and go on a rampage.

The motive for the gun massacres here in the US is always predictable. The assailant is suicidal and lashes out at the segment of society they believe is responsible for triggering their ongoing condition.

The Columbine kids were bullied, but only one of their victims was known to have targeted them in the past. They just lost all faith in their peer group and decided to attack everyone. Their original plan was to flee the school, hijack a commercial airliner and crash it into NYC. So we see this deep hatred of a society they believe let them down.

The Virginia Tech shooting was likely the result of passive bullying by dorm mates and his hatred of the wealthy. So again, another one targets a group that generally fits his vision of what's wrong with the segments of society that negatively effected his own life.

Now we have 20-year-old Adam Lanza killing his mom and an entire first grade class. We don't have any real details yet, other than he was "removed" from the other kids as one former classmate described him. This is almost certainly the result of childhood bullying and the lasting social effects leading to suicidal depression at the age of 20. It is one possibility that he fantasized about killing his aggressors in the place and time in which the bullying started. If so, gunning down a grade school classroom may have been the closest thing to fulfilling that longtime fantasy.

The motive for killing his mother is likely a separate issue from the children. We know that she was staying home to look after him full time. He may very well have viewed her as controlling his life in a manner in which he resented. He was no longer in high school, apparently wasn't working nor in college even though he was described as being a brainiac. So there was clearly parental control going on there that was unusual for a 20yo.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot

The motive for the gun massacres here in the US is always predictable. The assailant is suicidal and lashes out at the segment of society they believe is responsible for triggering their ongoing condition.

The Columbine kids were bullied, but only one of their victims was known to have targeted them in the past. They just lost all faith in their peer group and decided to attack everyone. Their original plan was to flee the school, hijack a commercial airliner and crash it into NYC. So we see this deep hatred of a society they believe let them down.

The Virginia Tech shooting was likely the result of passive bullying by dorm mates and his hatred of the wealthy. So again, another one targets a group that generally fits his vision of what's wrong with the segments of society that negatively effected his own life.

Now we have 20-year-old Adam Lanza killing his mom and an entire first grade class. We don't have any real details yet, other than he was "removed" from the other kids as one former classmate described him. This is almost certainly the result of childhood bullying and the lasting social effects leading to suicidal depression at the age of 20. It is one possibility that he fantasized about killing his aggressors in the place and time in which the bullying started. If so, gunning down a grade school classroom may have been the closest thing to fulfilling that longtime fantasy.

The motive for killing his mother is likely a separate issue from the children. We know that she was staying home to look after him full time. He may very well have viewed her as controlling his life in a manner in which he resented. He was no longer in high school, apparently wasn't working nor in college even though he was described as being a brainiac. So there was clearly parental control going on there that was unusual for a 20yo.

I'd like to know where he got the gun.

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Sue McDonald 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

I'd like to know where he got the gun.

The guns were registered to his mother and she was the person ( according to a press report) who taught him to shoot.

A tragic event and I feel very sorry for all the families that have lost loved ones.
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ceenote100

13 years ago

This is f****d up for real!

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garyv

13 years ago

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whateverpedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

Actually, both of them.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Actually, both of them.

WRONG.

EVERY school already has a "NO CONCEALED WEAPONS" sign posted at every entrance.

Did that stop the shooter from forcing his way inside with a weapon?

NOPE.

There is a reason why this type of violence always happens in a so-called "gun-free zone" - the people inside who do obey the law, and do not bring a weapon inside, are sitting ducks with no way to protect themselves.

And the criminals KNOW this.

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New 13 years ago

It's too late to change American society. You just have to accept that these events will occur, no matter what preventative or pre-emptive measures are taken. The only way to survive is to be constantly aware of what is happening around you, so that you can take evasive action, if possible. And pray that it never happens to you or yours.
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DubDubDubDot

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

There is a reason why this type of violence always happens in a so-called "gun-free zone"

The threat of a would-be victim having a gun is not a deterrent. We know this because A) the assailant is often wearing body armor and is thus expecting to be shot at and B) they are suicidal and usually kill themselves before police can.

Colorado is a concealed carry state, but that didn't stop James Holmes. The Fort Hood incident obviously doesn't jive with your theory. Oregon is also concealed carry, but that didn't deter the mall shooting this week. etc...

I just can't see strapping a gun to myself for the 1 in a gazillion chance of being involved in a situation like this. I've got my wallet, car keys and cellphone and think that's too much. And even if I did have a gun and a shooter opened fire on a crowed I was in I'd just run. I'm not sticking around trying to be the hero. And if they have body armor and a semi auto, well, good luck fighting that with your little pistol. You truly are better off running.

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot

The threat of a would-be victim having a gun is not a deterrent. We know this because A) the assailant is often wearing body armor and is thus expecting to be shot at and B) they are suicidal and usually kill themselves before police can.

Colorado is a concealed carry state, but that didn't stop James Holmes. The Fort Hood incident obviously doesn't jive with your theory. Oregon is also concealed carry, but that didn't deter the mall shooting this week. etc...

I just can't see strapping a gun to myself for the 1 in a gazillion chance of being involved in a situation like this. I've got my wallet, car keys and cellphone and think that's too much. And even if I did have a gun and a shooter opened fire on a crowed I was in I'd just run. I'm not sticking around trying to be the hero. And if they have body armor and a semi auto, well, good luck fighting that with your little pistol. You truly are better off running.

He said gun free zones, such as schools, movie theaters, malls, etc. (which coincidentally, is where most of these massacres seem to take place). They have these even in concealed carry permitted states.

There are no set rules for homicidal maniacs...

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whateverpedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

WRONG.

And right as well. Just as your argument is both right and wrong.

You seem to convienently neglect the chance that one of the "guardians" inside could also go apeshit and start a massacre.

Comedian Ben Elton had a good idea when he said (wtte), "There should only be one question on a gun license application. Do you want to own a gun? If you answer yes, you are unfit to own one."

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

And right as well. Just as your argument is both right and wrong.

You seem to convienently neglect the chance that one of the "guardians" inside could also go apeshit and start a massacre.

Comedian Ben Elton had a good idea when he said (wtte), "There should only be one question on a gun license application. Do you want to own a gun? If you answer yes, you are unfit to own one."

Whatever you say, whateverpedia.

You're saying a law-abiding citizen with their carry permit ***COULD*** go "ape shit" and start a massacre.

On the other hand, that same person ***COULD*** have prevented this entire tragedy from occurring.

Please kindly see yourself out of this thread.

This isn't about what COULD happen.

Because we've all seen what could happen.

When is the last time you've heard about a LEGAL OWNER AND CARRIER doing something like this?

NEVER.

These firearms that are used for this type of thing are ALWAYS stolen or unregistered, and are possessed BY A CRIMINAL.

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whateverpedia 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

When is the last time you've heard about a LEGAL OWNER AND CARRIER doing something like this?

Most of the time. Up until they open fire none of these nutbags had broken any laws.

These firearms that are used for this type of thing are ALWAYS stolen or unregistered, and are possessed BY A CRIMINAL.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Rarely are they stolen or unregistered, and rarely are the people committing the atrocities "criminals", until they open fire that is.

But hey, if the only way you feel safe (or whatever Freudian reason you have for needing a gun), good luck to you.
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- Robert Michael 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by whateverpedia
  
  But hey, if the only way you feel safe (or whatever Freudian reason you have for needing a gun), good luck to you.
  
  Cool, again.. whatever you say.
  
  You have the right to feel how you do, and I have the right to keep my weapons.
  
  Nothing more to be said.
  
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seasoned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

Actually, both of them.

WRONG! The left one is just about everywhere in such cases, and it still happens there. In some places where the one on the right was effectively put city, state, or country wide(countries like israel or switzerland) such problems *****DROPPED*****!

The one on the left REQUESTS the bad STRANGER to follow the request.(depends on STRANGER) The one on the right STATES that the KNOWN people have provided for them NOT following any implied request.(100% controllable)

Steve

TRUE STORY TIME! I wish I could remember the date, etc.... but a guy was constantly robbed. Dogs were poisoned, etc... So the guy got SNAKES!!!!!!!! He put a sign out saying BEWARE OF POISONOUS SNAKES! He was AGAIN robbed. Er... They TRIED to rob him! They didn't get very far. As I recall, one got saved in time and the other died. The threats were NEVER taken seriously! And there is ALWAYS at least an implied request not to steal. But the snakes in the store got the job done.

As I recall, the store owner got in trouble. Seriously, if he rents the place, it is HIS for that time. If he wants to put something there that is safely locked up and he can control, he should be allowed to. And HEY, DOGS could be dangerous TOO! Of course DOGS will eat almost anything, and may metabolize things quickly. SNAKES prefer live things, and metabolize more slowly. AND, of course, dogs are noisy and snakes can be pretty quiet.

Steve
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HeySal

13 years ago

Looks like our shooter might be one of a long list of shooters on psychotropic drugs.

These drugs come with warnings - yet these drugs are forced down as many throats as they can get them down. If your kid steps out of line in any way, including just talking too much in class, they will be put on these drugs - and they are proving deadly.

So why don't we make a loud call to stop the drugging? Seems the drugs are what is causing the insanity. So why not get rid of those? Couldn't be because of the profit being made from them, could it?

People from other countries want to know what's wrong in America? It's not the guns. It's a system that will drug and poison people right out of their heads for a profit. Another school shooting? Oh well. Another billion for the pharmaceutical industry, so **** your kids.

Gun control? We need medication control! Newton elementary school shooter Adam Lanza likely on meds; labeled as having 'personality disorder'

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Looks like our shooter might be one of a long list of shooters on psychotropic drugs.

These drugs come with warnings - yet these drugs are forced down as many throats as they can get them down. If your kid steps out of line in any way, including just talking too much in class, they will be put on these drugs - and they are proving deadly.

So why don't we make a loud call to stop the drugging? Seems the drugs are what is causing the insanity. So why not get rid of those? Couldn't be because of the profit being made from them, could it?

People from other countries want to know what's wrong in America? It's not the guns. It's a system that will drug and poison people right out of their heads for a profit. Another school shooting? Oh well. Another billion for the pharmaceutical industry, so **** your kids.

Gun control? We need medication control! Newton elementary school shooter Adam Lanza likely on meds; labeled as having 'personality disorder'

Even more reason to get rid of guns. The last thing you need is a nation of kids fu**ed out of their boxes on drugs in a place where you can buy a brand spanking new gun as easy as you can get a Doner Kebab here.

What your post tells me, is that no civilian population in any country should have the right to carry guns, especially in the States.

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Even more reason to get rid of guns. The last thing you need is a nation of kids fu**ed out of their boxes on drugs in a place where you can buy a brand spanking new gun as easy as you can get a Doner Kebab here.

What your post tells me, is that a civilian population of any country should not have the right to carry a gun, especially in the States.

WTF is wrong with your head? Our whole population is being turned into zombies for the profit of corporations and you think we need to get rid of guns instead of the drugs?

That's real logical thinking. Take their guns and drug em to death. Now I see what your motives are - you want to see Americans die - just don't like the blood bath - just drug em to death.

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MissTerraK

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

WTF is wrong with your head? Our whole population is being turned into zombies for the profit of corporations and you think we need to get rid of guns instead of the drugs?

That's real logical thinking. Take their guns and drug em to death. Now I see what your motives are - you want to see Americans die - just don't like the blood bath - just drug em to death.

BRAVO Sal!

Whoops, wrong choice of word?

Anyway, as you know, I battled for years against people in high places to keep them from drugging my son and won.

I wish that more people had that kind of bull dog tenacity to fight the powers that be in the decisions that affect our well being. Oh, wait! They can't...they're too drugged to think straight! :rolleyes:

Terra

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

WTF is wrong with your head? Our whole population is being turned into zombies for the profit of corporations and you think we need to get rid of guns instead of the drugs?

That's real logical thinking. Take their guns and drug em to death. Now I see what your motives are - you want to see Americans die - just don't like the blood bath - just drug em to death.

Do you think this drugging that you talk of exists only in the U.S? Don't you think that in the U.K people get all kinds of pharmaceuticals crammed down their throats as well?

This is not the way the U.S is ran, this is the way the western capitalistic world is designed. I am the first one to agree that it is wrong.

It is what it is. As long as we have capitalistic societies in place, this is the way it's going to be and I don't see it going away any time soon.

What we don't need in these fu**ed up western "paradises", where people are wandering around, out of their faces on pharmaceutical drugs is being able to pick up a gun whenever they feel like it... they might be having "one of those days"!

civilian populations, as a whole, are not stable enough to be carrying guns. In a sense, you said that yourself.

Edit: I realize that a gun ban isn't going to entirely solve the problem, but it's a start.
I don't think it's entirely fair to people like Terra and yourself (if you are indeed a gun owner), but if it saves lives, it has to be done.

Making firearms significantly more difficult to get access to will eventually lead to a decrease in shootings.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Making firearms significantly more difficult to get access to will eventually lead to a decrease in shootings.

Is that so?

Didn't seem to do the 69 people killed in a VERY strict gun-control area like Norway any good, now did it?

Or let me guess.. you don't care about Norway.

You're too busy sticking your nose into the business of Americans, even though you're not a part of this country.

Sorry, I almost forgot.

Here's a quote that every AMERICAN citizen should keep in mind before they support a "gun ban"

"To disarm the people - That was the best and most effectual way to enslave them" - George Mason, 1788

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

You're too busy sticking your nose into the business of Americans, even though you're not a part of this country.

What an absolute dim witted remark to make. Suppose I'm not allowed to talk about the pyramids either because I'm not Egyptian. That would be "sticking my nose into the business of Egyptians".

By your rational, I am not allowed to discuss the stoning to death of women in Pakistan either.
When things happen in the world, they get discussed. No matter where they happen.

Pathetic.

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garyv

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

What an absolute dim witted remark to make. Suppose I'm not allowed to talk about the pyramids either because I'm not Egyptian. That would be "sticking my nose into the business of Egyptians".

By your rational, I am not allowed to discuss the stoning to death of women in Pakistan either.
When things happen in the world, they get discussed. No matter where they happen.

Pathetic.

The difference here is that the ENTIRE reason we are here in the United States with a 2nd amendment is because we wanted to escape the freedom quenching tyrannical thinking of some highfalutin Brits. So no offense - but this may be the reason why a Brit is the last person we'd want to hear an opinion on the matter from.

While I'll agree that not having access to guns would have made this situation go a lot differently - There are a many number of other things that could have helped to prevent this.

A gun ban in the United States will never happen because it's written into our Constitution. And enough people here believe so strongly in it, that more people would die trying to take our guns than the gun ban was intended to save in the first place.

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Bewley

13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

The difference here is that the ENTIRE reason we are here in the United States with a 2nd amendment is because we wanted to escape the freedom quenching tyrannical thinking of some highfalutin Brits. So no offense - but this may be the reason why a Brit is the last person we'd want to hear an opinion on the matter from.

Nowt like holding a grudge, is there? So you don't mind selling your stuff to us then?

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garyv

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bewley

Nowt like holding a grudge, is there? So you don't mind selling your stuff to us then?

No not at all - even after having someone from the UK call the U.S. a place full of breeding psychopaths, I don't mind selling to you.

Hey if you're going to come in here and try and dump on Americans with your stupid crap, then you're going to have to expect some resistance. Especially when you do it with the piss poor tacky timing that was presented in this thread.

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Bewley

13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

No not at all - even after having someone from the UK call the U.S. a place full of breeding psychopaths, I don't mind selling to you.

Hey if you're going to come in here and try and dump on Americans with your stupid crap, then you're going to have to expect some resistance. Especially when you do it with the piss poor tacky timing that was presented in this thread.

You generalised (or, as good as) a whole nation about something that happened 200+ years ago - dragging that up was just plain lazy & irrelevant.

Point me to where exactly I have 'dumped on Americans with my stupid crap'?

I think you will find that the that the 'piss poor tacky timing' was initiated by one of your compatriots - you need to re-read through the thread mate.

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bewley

You generalised (or, as good as) a whole nation about something that happened 200+ years - dragging that up was just plain lazy & irrelevant.

Point me to where exactly I have 'dumped on Americans with my stupid crap'?

I think you will find that the that the 'piss poor tacky timing' was initiated by one of your compatriots - you need to re-read through the thread mate.

You're a little behind. They already kissed and went their separate ways

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Bewley 13 years ago

A lot of love broke out while I was replying to that post. Quite rightly so
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MissTerraK 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bewley

Nowt like holding a grudge, is there? So you don't mind selling your stuff to us then?

LOL! Why would we hold the grudge? Seems to me that our boys whooped your queen's boy's butts quite badly!!

No, not a grudge at all, hahaha!

Terra
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- bravo75 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by MissTerraK
  
  LOL! Why would we hold the grudge? Seems to me that our boys whooped your queen's boy's butts quite badly!!
  
  No, not a grudge at all, hahaha!
  
  Terra
  
  Lol. Jesus, this thread has taken a turn for the worse.
  
  It's gone from this:
  
  to this: vs.
  
  Can we have a bit more of this?
  
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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

The difference here is that the ENTIRE reason we are here in the United States with a 2nd amendment is because we wanted to escape the freedom quenching tyrannical thinking of some highfalutin Brits. So no offense - but this may be the reason why a Brit is the last person we'd want to hear an opinion on the matter from.

While I'll agree that not having access to guns would have made this situation go a lot differently - There are a many number of other things that could have helped to prevent this.

A gun ban in the United States will never happen because it's written into our Constitution. And enough people here believe so strongly in it, that more people would die trying to take our guns than the gun ban was intended to save in the first place.

This makes me mad as a Brit who lives Stateside. Last time I checked I wasn't tyrannical, nor was I high-falutin'. I am an advocate for stronger gun laws (assault and automatic weapons off the general market). I also believe there should be more strongholds in place for those who want to own a gun.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Charlotte Jay

This makes me mad as a Brit who lives Stateside. Last time I checked I wasn't tyrannical, nor was I high-falutin'. I am an advocate for stronger gun laws (assault and automatic weapons off the general market). I also believe there should be more strongholds in place for those who want to own a gun.

Gary simply meant that that was the MAIN idea in the minds of the colonists. You have to admit that the British government has a HUGE history of that sort of thing! Ireland, Canada, Australia, US, etc... This country was STARTED by british citizens, so we KNOW you don't ALL feel this way.

BTW assault weapon is a stupid term coined by gun control nuts. They are nothing of the sort. Basically, they call ANY normal size gun, and even some rifles, assualt weapons. Automatic weapons are already illegal. SEMI automatic weapons will only shoot ONCE if you pull the trigger. They are called semiAUTOMATIC because they expel the used bullet and reload the chamber. Even THERE, it is now illegal to sell or buy ones that have over 10 bullets. After the ten bullets are used, it might take an expert, prepared with two LOADED clips, maybe 9-10 seconds to reload! For people like ME, that bought BEFORE the ban on weapons over 10 bullets, it is legal to own them or use them, but related spare parts have to be crippled. So if I need a new 11+ magazine, I am out of luck. And I can't resell it as is.

To reshoot a semiautomatic, you generally have to release the trigger, and pull down again. You have to wait for it to reset first though. They can fail to fire. If they fail to fire, or you run out of bullets, you often have to fix the problem, pull back the slide, and THEN you can shoot by pulling the trigger. Again though, only ONE shot!

It is also illegal for felons to have a gun, let alone own one or use it.

Steve

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Charlotte Jay

This makes me mad as a Brit who lives Stateside. Last time I checked I wasn't tyrannical, nor was I high-falutin'. I am an advocate for stronger gun laws (assault and automatic weapons off the general market). I also believe there should be more strongholds in place for those who want to own a gun.

Charlotte, they are off the market and have been for at least a half-century. A true assault weapon has selective fire - single shot and automatic (some have a three-shot burst selection). It is illegal in the U.S. to own a weapon capable of automatic fire without jumping over numerous hurdles and paying a substantial fee to the federal government.

The weapons the media brands as 'assault weapons' are nothing of the sort. They are nothing but plasticized plinking rifles. That's not to say they aren't deadly, of course they can be. But they aren't the military/law-enforcement weapons the media makes them out to be.

And you're not included in the tyrannical group - unless you want to curb a freedom we've lived with for over 200 years.

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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

Charlotte, they are off the market and have been for at least a half-century. A true assault weapon has selective fire - single shot and automatic (some have a three-shot burst selection). It is illegal in the U.S. to own a weapon capable of automatic fire without jumping over numerous hurdles and paying a substantial fee to the federal government.

The weapons the media brands as 'assault weapons' are nothing of the sort. They are nothing but plasticized plinking rifles. That's not to say they aren't deadly, of course they can be. But they aren't the military/law-enforcement weapons the media makes them out to be.

And you're not included in the tyrannical group - unless you want to curb a freedom we've lived with for over 200 years.

I had hoped not, thanks. I probably know more about America than most people who live here due to the mountains of paperwork I have to complete to be here legally lol I still think there needs to be change, obviously something is not working. My old neighbourhood was terrifying, fighting dogs, drugs, battery and assault, someone even threw a stick of dynamite in the street. I could have gotten a weapon, but with very young kids in the house, it makes me super uncomfortable, even though I have the right to own one, you know?

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Charlotte Jay

I had hoped not, thanks. I probably know more about America than most people who live here due to the mountains of paperwork I have to complete to be here legally lol I still think there needs to be change, obviously something is not working. My old neighbourhood was terrifying, fighting dogs, drugs, battery and assault, someone even threw a stick of dynamite in the street. I could have gotten a weapon, but with very young kids in the house, it makes me super uncomfortable, even though I have the right to own one, you know?

ANY decent parent will keep in mind that you have to care about kids. They make latches, locks, and safes for guns. Still, I flash on billy mumy in an early alfred hitchcock presents. Alfred was british, by the way, but that is a coincidence. And he had this, as I recall, without comment. But it DOES show how people should be careful around kids!

Alfred Hitchcock - Bang! You're Dead - 17....

Steve

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

Do you think this drugging that you talk of exists only in the U.S? Don't you think that in the U.K people get all kinds of pharmaceuticals crammed down their throats as well?

This is not the way the U.S is ran, this is the way the western capitalistic world is designed. I am the first one to agree that it is wrong.

It is what it is. As long as we have capitalistic societies in place, this is the way it's going to be and I don't see it going away any time soon.

What we don't need in these fu**ed up western "paradises", where people are wandering around, out of their faces on pharmaceutical drugs is being able to pick up a gun whenever they feel like it... they might be having "one of those days"!

civilian populations, as a whole, are not stable enough to be carrying guns. In a sense, you said that yourself.

Edit: I realize that a gun ban isn't going to entirely solve the problem, but it's a start.
I don't think it's entirely fair to people like Terra and yourself (if you are indeed a gun owner), but if it saves lives, it has to be done.

Making firearms significantly more difficult to get access to will eventually lead to a decrease in shootings.

What I've found about philosophy through my years of study, is that it belongs best on paper.

You can keep your philosophy. What do you expect me to do if faced with a violent attacker? Call the police if I can get to a phone and wait and hope they arrive in time? Spout wisdom and morality to a sociopath? Nope - I'm going to stop the attack, as quickly and brutally as needed. If that means shoot the attacker in the head - oh well, one more dangerous person nobody else has to worry about.

For your info - the last time, I used electricity. Didn't have a gun at the time. Not sure if that dude is still out stalking people down or not, but he's off my case nicely royal.

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

What I've found about philosophy through my years of study, is that it belongs best on paper.

Apocalyptic visions of zombies roaming the streets America probably belong there as well.
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whateverpedia 13 years ago

Originally Posted by HeySal

Our whole population is being turned into zombies for the profit of corporations

Whereas your case against the pharma industry is one that can't be argued with, you neglected to mention the media corporations who are also turning your nation into a pack of rabid zombies.
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HeySal

13 years ago

Remember the worst attack in the US? It wasn't guns - it was poison:

1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We need to ban food.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

What an absolute dim witted remark to make. Suppose I'm not allowed to talk about the pyramids either because I'm not Egyptian. That would be "sticking my nose into the business of Egyptians".

By your rational, I am not allowed to discuss the stoning to death of women in Pakistan either.
When things happen in the world, they get discussed. No matter where they happen.

Pathetic.

There is a difference between discussing something & REPEATEDLY saying that you want to change the policies of a country you're not even a part of.

I'd say we all know who the "pathetic" one here is, and I guarantee it isn't me.

For your info - the last time, I used electricity. Didn't have a gun at the time. Not sure if that dude is still out stalking people down or not, but he's off my case nicely royal.

Good for you.

I also have a 5.8 million volt tazer/stun gun among my collection.

Saves me from potentially having to take a life, and it saves the criminal from death.

Maybe one day "bravo" will encounter a mugger who holds him at gunpoint, and all he can think to himself is "damn... I sure wish I had a weapon of my own to protect myself with!"

Smart money says that if that were to ever happen, you could bet your last penny that his attitude towards who should & shouldn't be allowed to own a gun would be flip-flopping faster than Romney at a presidential debate. LOLLLLLLLLL

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HeySal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

There is a difference between discussing something & REPEATEDLY saying that you want to change the policies of a country you're not even a part of.

I'd say we all know who the "pathetic" one here is, and I guarantee it isn't me.

Good for you.

I also have a 5.8 million volt tazer/stun gun among my collection.

Saves me from potentially having to take a life, and it saves the criminal from death.

Maybe one day "bravo" will encounter a mugger who holds him at gunpoint, and all he can think to himself is "damn... I sure wish I had a weapon of my own to protect myself with!"

Smart money says that if that were to ever happen, you could bet your last penny that his attitude towards who should & shouldn't be allowed to own a gun would be flip-flopping faster than Romney at a debate.

I didn't have a taser. I stripped down a couple inches of the end of a lamp cord, wrapped it around the door knob and plugged it in. Worked pretty well. Ended up buying a gun, though. That was the second time I had problems with attackers while I was on campus in school. I was cute when I was young, LOL - and looked defenseless. One out of two ain't bad.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

Maybe one day "bravo" will encounter a mugger who holds him at gunpoint, and all he can think to himself is "damn... I sure wish I had a weapon of my own to protect myself with!"

I have had a gun in my face on two occasions. I have also been stabbed in the neck with a screwdriver. I have been hit in the head with an iron bar. Still wouldn't want a gun. I would just be adding to a vicious cycle.

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bravo75 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Ah, the iron bar explains it.

Say no more.

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Seems to me that when someone owns a vehicle and pays for the road with his taxes, he should be able to do with his property as he pleases.

Sounds like you've been hit in the head with an iron bar yourself a couple of times.
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- bravo75 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill
  
  Only people who meet your criteria should be allowed to drive.
  
  Yeah, that makes sense.
  
  Well, I don't do drugs and I hardly drink. So yes, I do meet the criteria.
  
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Robert Michael

13 years ago

I have had a gun in my face on two occasions. I have also been stabbed in the neck with a screwdriver. I have been hit in the head with an iron bar. Still wouldn't want a gun. I would just be adding to a vicious circle.

WOW.

And you had the nerve to call me pathetic? lulz...

I have nothing more to say to you, other than please, just stop with this "holier than thou" crap by saying stuff like "I would just be adding to a vicious circle."

Get real. But whatever dude.. if you enjoy being a victim, good for you. Have fun with that.

Ah, the iron bar explains it.

Say no more.

Literally LOL'd at this one!

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

WOW.

And you had the nerve to call me pathetic? lulz...

I have nothing more to say to you, other than please, just stop with this "holier than thou" crap by saying stuff like "I would just be adding to a vicious circle."

Get real. But whatever dude.. if you enjoy being a victim, good for you. Have fun with that.

Literally LOL'd at this one!

I'm from Liverpool mate. These things are quite common.

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garyv

13 years ago

I'm bowing out of this conversation before I make too many more enemies.

No hard feelings to Bravo - other than this thread - I still love reading your stuff in here.

I sincerely hope we can come to a logical agreement on how to make our Country a safer place.

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

I'm bowing out of this conversation before I make too many more enemies.

No hard feelings to Bravo - other than this thread - I still love reading your stuff in here.

I sincerely hope we can come to a logical agreement on how to make our Country a safer place.

garyv. Same here. This thread got seriously derailed. I like all you guys. I've just got a very different opinion on guns, it seems. Lol

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MissTerraK

13 years ago

I still like you two as well!

No harm, no foul, no enemies...just OT buds!

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, whichever you prefer from me and mine to you and yours.

Terra

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

I still like you two as well!

No harm, no foul, no enemies...just OT buds!

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, whichever you prefer from me and mine to you and yours.

Terra

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MissTerraK 13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

I'm Tigger, right?

Terra

Edit: I thought I had thanked you for this post, but I have apparently used up my quota for the day.
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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Guns have been an integral part of U.S. society since the founding of the country. In our first 200 years, I'd bet that there were less than a handful of this kind of event.

So what's changed since then? The prevalence of mind-altering drugs given to children, the complete inundation of children's minds with violent video games, television shows and movies, and the advancement of 'feel-good' liberalism that attempts to relieve individuals of personal responsibility.

All those together have been the recipe for this disaster.

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TimPhelan

13 years ago

OMG. You just had to get that irrelevant political dig in there didn't you? haha You know, I think the out break of mass shootings has a lot more to do with many conservatives being against same sex marriage while being closeted homosexuals. Just a guess.

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

So what's changed since then? The prevalence of mind-altering drugs given to children, the complete inundation of children's minds with violent video games, television shows and movies, and the advancement of 'feel-good' liberalism that attempts to relieve individuals of personal responsibility.

All those together have been the recipe for this disaster.

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SteveJohnson

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Diversion52

I think it's weird how something this horrific can happen and the only thing people can talk about is "get rid of all guns" and "from my cold dead hands". That's why nothing changes. People talking about politics, principles, protection, control, freedom, etc.
There's so much things that contribute to these matters and they should all be discussed in a constructive matter. But it seems that everybody is too eager to voice out and defend their principles that are obviously carved in stone.

The defenders only give voice to their side when attacked. When something like this happens, a rather vocal group of people immediately, and loudly, proclaim that the solution is curbing yet another freedom. If they would get away from their confiscation agenda and pay attention to the real problems as you outline in the next paragraph, you wouldn't hear a peep from the 'from my cold dead hands' group.

People forget that there are many things that are common to nearly every massacre shooter. Depression, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, odd philosophies, etc. Who are we to say which single variable is the one that would fix the problem?

There probably isn't one single thing that would fix the problem, if at this stage it's even fixable.

People wanting to ban guns and the ones defending them with their life only seem to distract from the other issues that should be discussed as well.

Agreed, at least 50%

Originally Posted by TimPhelan

OMG. You just had to get that irrelevant political dig in there didn't you? haha You know, I think the out break of mass shootings has a lot more to do with many conservatives being against same sex marriage while being closeted homosexuals. Just a guess.

Don't get all up in arms over the 'liberal' label, Tim. It isn't an irrelevant political dig. It's very relevant, and it isn't political, it's philosophical. And it really doesn't matter WHICH group promotes the philosophy - the fact that kids are raised and taught the "it's not your fault" mindset is a problem, no matter which side of the fence it's coming from. At the moment, it comes from 'progressives', so that's what I labeled it. Tell me I'm wrong.

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TimPhelan 13 years ago

OK. You are wrong.

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

Tell me I'm wrong.
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- SteveJohnson 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TimPhelan
  
  OK. You are wrong.
  
  That perfect opening was my Christmas present to you
  
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  TimPhelan 13 years ago
  
  Thanks for that. Sorry for opening it early. Plus, I feel bad because I don't have a present for you.
  
  Originally Posted by SteveJohnson
  
  That perfect opening was my Christmas present to you
  
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whateverpedia

13 years ago

Originally Posted by SteveJohnson

So what's changed since then? The prevalence of mind-altering drugs given to children, the complete inundation of children's minds with violent video games, television shows and movies, and the advancement of 'feel-good' liberalism that attempts to relieve individuals of personal responsibility.

As well as a far right ideology that espouses selfishness.

All those together have been the recipe for this disaster.

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SteveJohnson 13 years ago

Originally Posted by whateverpedia

As well as a far right ideology that espouses selfishness.

If that were true, you'd have a valid point. The people I know of the 'far right ideology' give far more to charitable causes - time and money - than do the 'progressives' I'm acquainted with.
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Kingfish85

13 years ago

Wow, some of the comments in this thread are insane. Every time something like this happens, people run around screaming gun control this, gun reform that.

Unfortunately, everyone but a felon in the US has the right to bear arms legally. Them amount of guns owned vs the amount of guns used to kill other people are 2 extremely different numbers.

I guess we should have stricter laws on cars because of drunk drivers. Stricter laws on knives because of stabbings? Stricter laws on buying a baseball bat because someone used it to kill another person? Where do you draw the line at?

Stricter gun control is not going to do anything but hurt the law abiding citizen, not a criminal or the mentally ill that make decisions like this.

"it's time to act" , "how about gun control now Mr. President!"

Please explain how criminals follow laws and how stricter gun control will affect them? It won't.

As a NC resident of the US, my guns will not be taken from me, ever, without a fight. What's funny though, is where mass amounts of people are allowed to own & carry guns, the crime rate & incidents like this are extremely low. Although, it still happens.

It is a shame what happened, and elementary schools like this should not allow people to just walk in. My children daycare center is locked at all times and parents must show ID. While that still doesn't prevent it, it certainly helps deter it somewhat.

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Diversion52

13 years ago

I think it's weird how something this horrific can happen and the only thing people can talk about is "get rid of all guns" and "from my cold dead hands". That's why nothing changes. People talking about politics, principles, protection, control, freedom, etc.
There's so much things that contribute to these matters and they should all be discussed in a constructive matter. But it seems that everybody is too eager to voice out and defend their principles that are obviously carved in stone. People forget that there are many things that are common to nearly every massacre shooter. Depression, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, odd philosophies, etc. Who are we to say which single variable is the one that would fix the problem?

People wanting to ban guns and the ones defending them with their life only seem to distract from the other issues that should be discussed as well.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

When is the last time ANYONE has read a headline that said:

"400,000,000 RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS KILLED NOBODY TODAY!!!!"

NEVER.

Know why? Because that makes for horrible ratings.

Now THAT is what is truly pathetic in this situation.

/discussion....................

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seasoned

13 years ago

As for suicide, how does it help anyone by removing options ANYWAY? I heard of one suicide attempt where a guy drank DRANO! YEP! For people that don't know, drano is mean to unclog clogged pipes in home plmbing and is HIGHLY caustic! It will literally DISSOLVE skin! Drano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Here is what wikipedia says about the key ingredient:

Lye decomposes most organic matter and is particularly effective on fat and grease and hair which are materials which often clog drains. As the decomposition is more rapid if the temperature of the mixture is higher, and lye reacting with aluminum produces heat, shards of aluminum are an ingredient in Drano.

Anyway, supposedly he had second thoughts, perhaps because of the intense pain and the fact he died so slowly. Last I heard he was still alive! They took out his stomach, and much of his esophagus, and fed it over his rib cage or something. He has to eat more often and it is more of a problem. Still, DRINKING THAT! YIKES! What a way to try to commit suicide! Some people would try ANYTHING! Personally I think even a GUN is too much. If they still had REAL sleeping pills, people would probably use THEM, as they did before. THEY were pulled off the market because of all the suicides.

Steve

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seasoned

13 years ago

Steven,

I was wondering if I could ever thank you again. That last post was right. As for the rifle, most rifles that kids play with are substantially smaller and lighter than a real one. But you shouldn't hold a gun over a person's head anyway.

It is hard enough understanding the attraction for boys, but for girls? So many men in every war fight to stay out. HERE, we have women fighting to get in!

Steve

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

13 years ago

I am Adam Lanza's Mother:

I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/

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alistair

13 years ago

Originally Posted by MissTerraK

LOL! Why would we hold the grudge? Seems to me that our boys whooped your queen's boy's butts quite badly!!

Blimey, when did this happen?

I don't know why you bother arguing about something that really doesn't concern you Bravo even though I do agree with a lot of what you say. You might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Anyway, I saw about 5 minutes of this on the news when it was happening, and although obviously it's sad for those involved, I turned the TV off and went about my evening. I didn't find it shocking as it seems like people go psycho over there every other week, and to be 100% honest I don't really care. Not my country, not my problem.

Fortunately the argument about guns isn't something I've ever had to give a toss about, and what people do in their own countries is their own business, as long as it doesn't affect me.

Just out of interest, have any polls been conducted where people directly involved in these kind of incidents have been asked their opinions on gun laws?

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bravo75

13 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Blimey, when did this happen?

I don't know why you bother arguing about something that really doesn't concern you Bravo even though I do agree with a lot of what you say. You might as well be talking to a brick wall.

I know. Telling a (pro second amendment) American that guns are bad is like telling a Muslim fanatic that suicide bombing is bad. Pointless.
I won't be posting in this thread anymore.
I will bow out with these last words:

The pro gun folk think their psychopathy is righteous because their laws and culture allow it.

They think it's right and don't see how wrong it is because their laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous.

That's scary.

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MikeAmbrosio

13 years ago

Originally Posted by bravo75

I know. Telling an American (pro gun loony) that guns are bad is like telling a Muslim fanatic that suicide bombing is bad. Pointless.
I won't be posting in this thread anymore.
I will bow out with these last words:

The pro gun folk think their psychopathy is righteous because their laws and culture allow it.

They think it's right and don't see how wrong it is because their laws and culture allow it and depict it as something righteous.

That's scary.

Then... don't come here.

There, simple solution for you, eh?

By the way - does the name calling really help you feel better or something? Frankly, I may not have agreed with EVERYTHING you said, but you were making some sense in some of your posts. But since you feel the need to generalize everyone who does not share your view on guns as a looney, or a gun "nut", well, let's just say I view your opinions now more as simple rantings of someone not getting their way...and subsequently less valuable.

Too bad. You could have been more effective if you hadn't gone down that road.

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Tom B

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeAmbrosio

Then... don't come here.

There, simple solution for you, eh?

By the way - does the name calling really help you feel better or something? Frankly, I may not have agreed with EVERYTHING you said, but you were making some sense in some of your posts. But since you feel the need to generalize everyone who does not share your view on guns as a looney, or a gun "nut", well, let's just say I view your opinions now more as simple rantings of someone not getting their way...and subsequently less valuable.

Too bad. You could have been more effective if you hadn't gone down that road.

I think it is hilarious.

People who don't agree with him are gun looneys aka gun nuts aka biased gun toters...

haha

I have never owned a gun. I am a terrible gun toting American.

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MissTerraK 13 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Blimey...

I've always loved that word!

Terra
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- Kay King 13 years ago
  
  I won't be posting in this thread anymore.
  I will bow out with these last words:
  
  Could have just bowed out before going with the general "you people"...the gun issue here is more complex than those outside the US understand.
  
  There comes a point where relaying a horrible news event becomes a case of wallowing in the misery. That brings out the talking heads, the pseudo psychiatry and the various people and groups who latch on because it gives them a chance to promote their personal agenda.
  
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  what it is instead of what you think it should be.
  
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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by alistair

Blimey, when did this happen?

I don't know why you bother arguing about something that really doesn't concern you Bravo even though I do agree with a lot of what you say. You might as well be talking to a brick wall.

Anyway, I saw about 5 minutes of this on the news when it was happening, and although obviously it's sad for those involved, I turned the TV off and went about my evening. I didn't find it shocking as it seems like people go psycho over there every other week, and to be 100% honest I don't really care. Not my country, not my problem.

Fortunately the argument about guns isn't something I've ever had to give a toss about, and what people do in their own countries is their own business, as long as it doesn't affect me.

Just out of interest, have any polls been conducted where people directly involved in these kind of incidents have been asked their opinions on gun laws?

I've seen enough times to know that it doesn't necessarily change things. There are things, like the woman that didn't bring her gun because of new laws, and so some people died. As I recall, her FATHER died! She wished she had brought the gun.

BTW don't think everyone in the US is nuts. Heck, I had a friend once that had guns EVERYWHERE. I only saw him use them sometimes for target practice. About the only living creature he seemed to actually "hunt" was fish. I knew another person for about 8 years before he revealed that he always had a gun at the ready. BOTH of those guys never even seemed to raise their voices. I don't either. When I put things in all caps, I don't consider it yelling. I HATE yelling.

steve

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seasoned

13 years ago

Sorry bravo. I simply said the truth, and sad why. Kay seems to agree there.

Oh, I WISH it were so simple. I wish ALL related things were so simple. They aren't.

Steve

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

13 years ago

As if the first heinous senseless crime wasn't bad enough...some sick ******* has to go and do this - I hope they catch this person and pillory them -

Death threat prompts police response to Newtown church on Sunday
Death threat prompts police response to Newtown church on Sunday | The Lookout - Yahoo! News

NEWTOWN, Conn.--St. Rose of Lima Roman Catholic Church was evacuated during its noon mass on Sunday due to an anonymous threat made by phone.
A spokesman for the church told Yahoo News that an unidentified male called the rectory, threatening to "kill everyone."
"My friend didn't finish the job," the caller said, according to the church official.
The church alerted state police, who said it was a credible enough threat and ordered the church be evacuated, the spokesman said.

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MoneyMagnetMagnate

13 years ago

Connecticut school shooting: Adam Lanza's mother was preparing for disaster - Telegraph

The mother of the gunman who killed 20 children and seven adults in America's worst school massacre, was a gun-proud "survivalist" preparing for economic collapse, it has emerged.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill

Put guards in schools. There are plenty of returning veterans who could do the job very well.

Now THAT is an idea! I once worked at a place that the police LOVED!!!!!!! They hired off duty and retired police men for security. One of their main income streams was corporate buildings and malls, so they had a BIG need for security.

And maybe an OUTSIDER would care about bullying, etc...

Steve

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wyatt2011

13 years ago

I may have missed part of the story, but how did this guy just walk into the school, was there no security that could have stopped him.

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Nicholas H 13 years ago

Originally Posted by wyatt2011

I may have missed part of the story, but how did this guy just walk into the school, was there no security that could have stopped him.

Elementary School "Security" does not carry weapons.

They are just there as authoritative figures for the kids, and to break up teasing and bullying, etc.

They could not of done anything against a gun.

Only place I have seen armed school security was at the high school I went to. Also they were not security, we had actual police officers roaming around the grounds (bad neighborhood).
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MoneyMagnetMagnate

13 years ago

Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/op...f=opinion&_r=0
In the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one thought wells in my mind: Why can't we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?

Update: With today's shooting in Newtown, Conn., this article, first published July 24, 2012, unfortunately seems relevant again.
In the wake of last week's shooting in Aurora, Colo., we've taken a step back and laid out the best pieces we could find about guns. They're roughly organized by articles on rights, trafficking and regulation.
The Best Reporting on Guns in America - ProPublica

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Chris Worner

13 years ago

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin

-Chris

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

I've heard some pretty stupid comments about gun control in the USA. Some peopem (obviously gun toting lovers) saying he could jave done this with a knife, sledge hammer. What a joke! Nothing is as dealy or as fast as an automatic fire arm. But the gun lovers will never lsiten.

Facts about your so called "responsible" Gun Loving U.S.A. It looks like you never did leave the Wild Wild West days does it?

94,388 people shot in the USA this year.

39 people in the UK (no math isn't my strong point but your poulation % isn't that much higher....maybe it's the availability of guns?)

190 people shot in USA last Saturday alone!

11 is the minium age for gun eligibiltiy in Minnesota! 11! Are you f**** kidding me?

50 shots fired in shopping Mall on saturday -no one killed. (1 day after the school carnage)

51% of the firearsm are held in the U.S.A. OVER half of the word fire arms are in the U.S.A. but with 5% of the population. It proves you are in love with guns!

90 shots used by L.A pllica to kill a 19 year old speader.....guess they made sure there?

300 MILLION privately owned fiearms in the USA (registered)

40% of US population need NO background check to obtain agin. Forget tigher control how about SOME control!

9,484 - killed by firearms sin tyhe USA past 12 months

Shocking obsession with guns. And you onder why these things happen more often and with more devastation than in any other place in the world?

I guess next you'll let al lschool children carry a little "kids" gun to protect them-selves. I mean that should fix it ...right?

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

Good idea...i mean the economy is flushed with money and i am sure a few more billion can be ok?

Shopping malls/ Cinemas? Where else?

Now THAT is an idea! I once worked at a place that the police LOVED!!!!!!! They hired off duty and retired police men for security. One of their main income streams was corporate buildings and malls, so they had a BIG need for security.

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

but we aren't talnig about suicide ehre...I wish that ;litlt,e p*** had have just topped himslef the most painful way possible. We are talknig abouit the ability to do this much damage so quickly. If he had no access to guns you think he could have stil ldone this? NO WAY!

As for suicide, how does it help anyone by removing options ANYWAY? I heard of one suicide attempt where a guy drank DRANO! YEP! For people that don't know, drano is mean to unclog clogged pipes in home plmbing and is HIGHLY caustic! It will literally DISSOLVE skin! Drano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Here is what wikipedia says about the key ingredient:

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

Spoken by a true "gun slinger"

I know this may come as a shock, but many Americans don't want to turn into a class-ridden nanny surveillance state like Great Britain.

Why don't you work your side of the street and we'll work ours?

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

Can anyone tell me the actual point in this then? Or is it ok?

11 is the minium age for gun eligibiltiy in Minnesota! 11! Are you f**** kidding me?

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by markcr

Can anyone tell me the actual point in this then? Or is it ok?

Regarding that minnesota supposedly allows 11 year olds to purchase guns.... I looked at 4 sites. NO AGE except what I will mention, was mentioned. USUALLY, in such cases, that means 18 or older!!!!!

*Persons under the age of 21 prohibited from purchasing handguns and "military style" weapons. However, ownership of "assault weapons" by persons over 18 generally not prohibited.

Again, assault weapons in the us are relatively rare! I doubt many gun stores have them AT ALL!!!!!! "assault weapons" is a political buzz word used to scare and intimidate and does NOT refer to assault weapons. The gun I have would be considered an "assault weapon". It is small gauge, relatively short range, normal size, and does NOT have any banana clip, etc... It is SEMI automatic. You hold the trigger down, and only ONE bullet comes out.

BTW, In Minnesota, you DO have to license handguns, and there is a 7 day waiting period. There is a full federal FBI check.

Steve

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Kay King 13 years ago

Steve - federal laws set the age limits for many types of weaponry.

Assault weapons are freely bought and sold at gun shows without the restrictions imposed on retail gun shops.
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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

The question is..why is this happening more often now? And will it continue to escalate?

Things need to change and quick one way or another!

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

Ken serious;ly F.) this thread and stop trolling! Show some respect to those killed last week and stop using it to spout your crap. Ugly little troll you are!

You do not seem capable of discussing anything so go away!

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garyv

13 years ago

Someone posted this link to me in facebook. I thought I'd pop my head back in here long enough to share it. Very powerful and true...

The Anarchist Soccer Mom: Thinking the Unthinkable

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by garyv

Someone posted this link to me in facebook. I thought I'd pop my head back in here long enough to share it. Very powerful and true...

The Anarchist Soccer Mom: Thinking the Unthinkable

For the record, I don't think ANYONE has said that such people should have guns. It is a shame that someone can be so bright, and so belligerent, etc... I say bright only because she says off the charts, etc... I ASSUME it is a standard test. Many people with average IQs had higher ones when they were kids though.

In any event, such people should be somehow restrained. But that should NOT be a reason to restrain everyone else.

Steve

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

yeah sure there's no link is there?

We can discuss it again after your next mass killing. Hope you avoid it.

300 MILLION privately owned fiearms in the USA (registered)

40% of US population need NO background check to obtain agin. Forget tighter control how about SOME control!

9,484 - killed by firearms sin the USA past 12 months

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

So when people like that have easy access to an arsenal of firearms what is the outcome?

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

So when people like that have easy access to an arsenal of firearms what is the outcome?

What happens?

In my case, and in the case of other responsible gun owners out there, NOTHING happens.

If guns are responsible for killing people, mine must be defective.

^^^^^ Think about that for a moment. Go on, take your time.

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seasoned

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Whos That Guru

What happens?

In my case, and in the case of other responsible gun owners out there, NOTHING happens.

If guns are responsible for killing people, mine must be defective.

^^^^^ Think about that for a moment. Go on, take your time.

HEY, I took mine to the firing range a while after buying it. It isn't defective! It never so much as scraped a person, or put a nick in the walls, but I would take notice just from the feel of the force in my lungs, from the sound. Anyone that has been near an active gun range understands what I am talking about. I only hope some intruder feels the same way, if it ever gets to be used.

steve

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

Oh I am so sorry Ken didn't relaize this discussion was for U.S. Green card holders only. Apologies.

Mark, stop your supercilious nattering about things that really do not concern you. Americans are entirely capable of handling their own problems without your useless advice.

I am glad you feel insulted by my remarks..you desrve it. Show some respect for what happened and the lives lost instead of using this to bash Brits..

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

Geez Ken

You really do seem to have one almighty chip on that shoulder.....why do you hate Brits so much?

And how many guns do you own?

Ryder cup fan or something?

Any how...........enjoy your "gun control" debate (although no-one is actually allowed to say anything here against guns or the USA are they? Some debate)

Until the next time! Live long and prosper!

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Charlotte Jay

13 years ago

I am disappointed this thread has become so political about guns. Can't we just honour those poor babies and teachers who died senselessly?

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markcr

Banned 13 years ago

Yep it was mistake thinking there could be a rational discussion on this subject. Mods need to close it.

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Robert Michael

13 years ago

HEY, I took mine to the firing range a while after buying it. It isn't defective! It never so much as scraped a person, or put a nick in the walls, but I would take notice just from the feel of the force in my lungs, from the sound. Anyone that has been near an active gun range understands what I am talking about. I only hope some intruder feels the same way, if it ever gets to be used.

I meant defective as in, they have never killed anybody.

I know they aren't **TRULY** defective. I frequent the range. lol

And yea I know what you mean.. the compression from some of them is insane. You can feel the energy thru your entire body.

As for an intruder, I USED to keep them loaded, but not cocked at home.

That way it gives a would-be robber a chance to re-think what they are about to do when they hear the sound of me racking it, and I hopefully don't have to use it because they will retreat.

But lately.. after all this madness going on everywhere.. I admit, mine is right next to me as I type this, and there is definitely one in the chamber, ready to go just in case.

@Charlotte, tell that to the media. This became about gun control the moment it happened. Everybody knows that.

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