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Time is a direction in space.

by Dennis Gaskill
51 replies
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I still believe the universe has a beginning in real time, at the big bang. But there's another kind of time, imaginary time, at right angles to real time, in which the universe has no beginning or end.
- Stephen Hawking
Source: Stephen Hawking and the No Boundary Proposal

Fascinating reading for those who enjoy science.
  • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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    Interesting Dennis.

    I was watching “The Terminator” the other day and thinking how on Earth something could travel in time. (Theoretically speaking.)

    Then I realized that The Universe isn't unfolding in a linear fashion. Instead of thinking about it like “A - B” it’s more like “A+B+C”.

    (That probably doesn't make any sense by the way. ;-)
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by Jonathan 2.0 View Post

      Interesting Dennis.

      I was watching “The Terminator” the other day and thinking how on Earth something could travel in time. (Theoretically speaking.)

      Then I realized that The Universe isn't unfolding in a linear fashion. Instead of thinking about it like “A - B” it’s more like “A+B+C”.

      (That probably doesn't make any sense by the way. ;-)
      Are you saying dimensionally as well? A= Spatial location, B = "time" C = Dimension.

      I'm very fond of that idea myself. I believe "real" time is something that is just a bleed over to us "down in the 3rd Dimension" from the higher dimensions. That's why we can't perceive of it in any other form but linear. I believe light and electricity are bleeds as well.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jonathan 2.0
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        Something like that Sal. ;-)

        It's an interesting topic. I'll have to look into more of that/your theory.
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

          Are you saying dimensionally as well? A= Spatial location, B = "time" C = Dimension.

          I'm very fond of that idea myself. I believe "real" time is something that is just a bleed over to us "down in the 3rd Dimension" from the higher dimensions. That's why we can't perceive of it in any other form but linear. I believe light and electricity are bleeds as well.
          Hmmm, possibly! :rolleyes:

          It could be that experiments where a particle travels at light speed then disappears for a time and comes back, is showing us that right angle to 3 dimensional time/space.

          Or ordinary matter is for a short time going into 4 dimensional space, or subspace to coin a Star Trek phrase.

          But with string theory, everything that exists probably already has its toes into up to 10 dimensions already?

          That is the current theory about how gravity exists, normal matter shearing itself against higher dimensions and creating the illusion of weight!


          Its funny that all experiments that show this result, are never conclusively proven to exist, and if an experiment is conducted it is shown to be faulty equipment.

          Probably has something to do with the Philadelphia experiment and the subsequent space, time tunnel experiments!

          As usual the truly cool science is all buried in Area 51!


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  • Profile picture of the author David Braybrooke
    Talking about the great Stephen Hawking, this article caught my eye. Worth a read! - The man who proved Stephen Hawking wrong - Telegraph
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  • Profile picture of the author lcombs
    It still begs the question; What was before the Big Bang?
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

      It still begs the question; What was before the Big Bang?
      Dimensions. Matter being shot into the third dimension from higher dimensions. I believe in multiple universes. The third dimension is not much different to higher ones than the second is to us, I would think.
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      • Profile picture of the author Midnight Oil


        Sorry. Couldn't resist.
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      • Profile picture of the author lcombs
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Dimensions. Matter being shot into the third dimension from higher dimensions. I believe in multiple universes. The third dimension is not much different to higher ones than the second is to us, I would think.
        I don't believe in higher or lower dimensions.
        Everything is everywhere at the "time".
        To say there are higher or lower dimensions is linear.
        By definition it excludes infinity.
        For example: What is before the first dimension?
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

          I don't believe in higher or lower dimensions.
          Everything is everywhere at the "time".
          To say there are higher or lower dimensions is linear.
          By definition it excludes infinity.
          For example: What is before the first dimension?
          It's not linear at all. Each dimension encompasses the dimension below it within it. Just like the first and second dimension exist as a portion of the third. I'm not sure why you are thinking "linear". Linear isn't a dimensional concept - it's a universal one. Whether you believe in other dimensions or not, makes no difference in their existence. You are free to come up with the mathematical codes to disprove them.
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          • Profile picture of the author lcombs
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            It's not linear at all. Each dimension encompasses the dimension below it within it. Just like the first and second dimension exist as a portion of the third. I'm not sure why you are thinking "linear". Linear isn't a dimensional concept - it's a universal one. Whether you believe in other dimensions or not, makes no difference in their existence. You are free to come up with the mathematical codes to disprove them.
            I believe in other dimensions.
            It's the numerical value you assign them that I question.
            Numbers imply value. Low to high, side to side. Linear.
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            • Profile picture of the author heavysm
              This is particularly interesting because I am taking a class called philosophy of space and time as an undergrad in university.

              My mind get blown in class daily, more so because I'm personally more of an ethics philosopher than science/physics phil guy.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
                Originally Posted by heavysm View Post

                This is particularly interesting because I am taking a class called philosophy of space and time as an undergrad in university.

                My mind get blown in class daily, more so because I'm personally more of an ethics philosopher than science/physics phil guy.
                The scientists over at DARPA that make destructive weapons don't have any ethics or philosophy. The greatest law in the universe is things tend to even out :p So in a way, you're actually helping out.
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      • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Dimensions. Matter being shot into the third dimension from higher dimensions. I believe in multiple universes. The third dimension is not much different to higher ones than the second is to us, I would think.
        There are some interesting theories in this area, but the most accepted ones maintain that there is one "universe" containing an infinite number of "worlds."

        Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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        • Profile picture of the author HeySal
          Originally Posted by Hopeless Bromantic View Post

          There are some interesting theories in this area, but the most accepted ones maintain that there is one "universe" containing an infinite number of "worlds."

          Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
          Actually - it's very accepted throughout physics that there are 10 dimensions. There are other theories, but the accepted one states 10 dimensions. Multiple universes is as accepted as the single universe theory - possibly a little more. String theory would account for an infinite number of universes.
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          • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            Actually - it's very accepted throughout physics that there are 10 dimensions. There are other theories, but the accepted one states 10 dimensions. Multiple universes is as accepted as the single universe theory - possibly a little more. String theory would account for an infinite number of universes.
            Mystics agree with the limited dimensions theory, although they tend to think that 7 is more accurate.

            If l remember correctly 3 are above ours and the rest are below.


            Although the lower ones, have offshoots.


            And the best we can do is to briefly look directly at these dimensions, with present tech,.


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          • Profile picture of the author MikeTucker
            Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

            Actually - it's very accepted throughout physics that there are 10 dimensions.
            I thought Michio Kaku's theory was prevalent at the moment?
            It was his final great achievement, his "E=MC²"?
            When did one of the dimensions get demoted, and which one was it?
            (Probably the same *******s that bullied Pluto into submission?)



            But I do find it amusing how crazy the pseudo-intellectuals get
            about the reality of time/space travel. At Comicpalooza 2013 I watched
            in abject humour as two great nerd minds got in a huge argument
            over whether or not time travel was allowed in their futuristic RPG?

            They both sought my support for their cause, and all I could think was:

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            • Profile picture of the author HeySal
              Originally Posted by MikeTucker View Post

              I thought Michio Kaku's theory was prevalent at the moment?
              It was his final great achievement, his "E=MC²"?
              When did one of the dimensions get demoted, and which one was it?
              (Probably the same *******s that bullied Pluto into submission?)

              Michio Kaku: The Multiverse Has 11 Dimensions - YouTube


              But I do find it amusing how crazy the pseudo-intellectuals get
              about the reality of time/space travel. At Comicpalooza 2013 I watched
              in abject humour as two great nerd minds got in a huge argument
              over whether or not time travel was allowed in their futuristic RPG?

              They both sought my support for their cause, and all I could think was:

              Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey...Stuff - YouTube
              So I'm behind physicists by a dimension or two, huh? Go figure. If Michio says 11 - I fully believe him. I adore that guy's brain. Rest of him isn't bad either.

              BTW - it's not MC², it's Mc² --- speed of light is indicated with a small c not a cap. I have no clue what cap C stands for.

              See, these "disappearing" particles are exactly why I think the dimensions interact. I don't think they just appear into existence and disappear out of it -- I think the pass through the 3rd dimension. I'd need a physicist to be able to provide the math to support that, though. It works on a logical basis, though. You can't "non-exist" energy - you can only transform it, so it's got to go somewhere.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                It works on a logical basis, though. You can't "non-exist" energy - you can only transform it, so it's got to go somewhere.
                I don't have time to share the math right now, but there is actually a good explanation for this too.

                In a nutshell, those energy particles attach to the left socks in your dryer and briefly hitch a ride out of our dimension. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't. Depends on your socks.

                There is a wild, unproven theory that some energy can leave this dimension attached to your keys as well, but I think that's crazy.
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                • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
                  Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

                  I don't have time to share the math right now, but there is actually a good explanation for this too.

                  In a nutshell, those energy particles attach to the left socks in your dryer and briefly hitch a ride out of our dimension. Sometimes they come back, sometimes they don't. Depends on your socks.

                  There is a wild, unproven theory that some energy can leave this dimension attached to your keys as well, but I think that's crazy.
                  Keys are taken by poltergeists. Definitely. Heard it on the radio.
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              • Profile picture of the author Hopeless Bromantic
                Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

                BTW - it's not MC², it's Mc² --- speed of light is indicated with a small c not a cap. I have no clue what cap C stands for.
                Celsius or Coulomb, generally.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
      Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

      It still begs the question; What was before the Big Bang?
      There is actually a very good answer to that.

      Nobody knows, and it doesn't matter.

      The BB theory says that for all intents and purposes, the universe as we know it started decisively at that moment, 14 billion years ago.

      It is entirely plausible that there may have been an infinite number of previous iterations of the universe before, possibly even with very different set of physical laws. But when they collapsed under their own weight, they were completely replaced with another universe. And another. And then another. After each collapse, there is a new big bang, then an expansion, then a contraction and a collapse. And the cycle repeats.

      And now, our universe is the only one that matters. And, it is entirely possible that a day will come when our universe stops expanding and begins contracting. That contraction will last many billions of years, picking up speed until our universe has collapsed into itself.

      And then another big bang will occur, followed by an expansion, and possible life that will look to the stars and try to contemplate our existence.
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      • Profile picture of the author lanfear63
        Any mention of the word Time is a waste of time.

        There is no time, only the eternal now. Man-made concept designed to get people up for work.

        Using time in equations is a fallacy.

        Don't ask me to elaborate as I have forgotten how I reached that conclusion. I will have to get back to you.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by lanfear63 View Post

          Any mention of the word Time is a waste of time.
          Don't ask me to elaborate as I have forgotten how I reached that conclusion. I will have to get back to you.
          Take your time.
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        • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
          Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

          Trying to apply 'shape' to infinity is an exercise in futility.
          Not really, our minds can't handle infinity in a linear, beginning and no end kind of way; but curve it around into a circle and we don't have an issue with it.

          You could walk around a circle forever!


          Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

          There is actually a very good answer to that.

          Nobody knows, and it doesn't matter.

          The BB theory says that for all intents and purposes, the universe as we know it started decisively at that moment, 14 billion years ago.

          It is entirely plausible that there may have been an infinite number of previous iterations of the universe before, possibly even with very different set of physical laws. But when they collapsed under their own weight, they were completely replaced with another universe. And another. And then another. After each collapse, there is a new big bang, then an expansion, then a contraction and a collapse. And the cycle repeats.

          And now, our universe is the only one that matters. And, it is entirely possible that a day will come when our universe stops expanding and begins contracting. That contraction will last many billions of years, picking up speed until our universe has collapsed into itself.

          And then another big bang will occur, followed by an expansion, and possible life that will look to the stars and try to contemplate our existence.

          I always find this funny, before the big bang we had some waves of energy merge together, blah, blah, blah.

          Doesn't matter how hard we try, something has to exist in order to create further things that create a big bang.

          But of course something intelligent can't exist, unless the infrastructure exists initially so it can develop from that, or to put it another way, nothing should exist.


          Since we exist, it proves there are things that we will have a hard time trying to figure out!


          I can see where Dougles Adams got his ideas from...


          Maybe l should just make a really strong cup of tea, and it will all make sense?


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      • Profile picture of the author lcombs
        Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

        There is actually a very good answer to that.

        Nobody knows, and it doesn't matter.

        The BB theory says that for all intents and purposes, the universe as we know it started decisively at that moment, 14 billion years ago.

        It is entirely plausible that there may have been an infinite number of previous iterations of the universe before, possibly even with very different set of physical laws. But when they collapsed under their own weight, they were completely replaced with another universe. And another. And then another. After each collapse, there is a new big bang, then an expansion, then a contraction and a collapse. And the cycle repeats.

        And now, our universe is the only one that matters. And, it is entirely possible that a day will come when our universe stops expanding and begins contracting. That contraction will last many billions of years, picking up speed until our universe has collapsed into itself.

        And then another big bang will occur, followed by an expansion, and possible life that will look to the stars and try to contemplate our existence.
        I thought that was whole point of the study of physics.
        Apparently SOMEBODY thinks it matters, and they want to know.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
          Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

          I thought that was whole point of the study of physics.
          Apparently SOMEBODY thinks it matters, and they want to know.
          Sure, it matters in the sense that there are people with curiosity.

          But in a physical sense, there has probably never been anything that mattered less.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

            Sure, it matters in the sense that there are people with curiosity.

            But in a physical sense, there has probably never been anything that mattered less.
            Your post has logic. It flows form one idea to another. Your meaning is clear, and concise. And you do not sound insane.

            I'm sorry, you'll have to leave.
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

              Sure, it matters in the sense that there are people with curiosity.

              But in a physical sense, there has probably never been anything that mattered less.
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              Your post has logic. It flows form one idea to another. Your meaning is clear, and concise. And you do not sound insane.

              I'm sorry, you'll have to leave.
              Jack, you're welcome to stay if you'll just give Claude a stroke now and then. Any kind of whip will do.
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          • Profile picture of the author HeySal
            Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

            Sure, it matters in the sense that there are people with curiosity.

            But in a physical sense, there has probably never been anything that mattered less.
            If you look at advancements made because of findings that resulted from humans questioning the nature of existence, I'd say that it is the question that matters the most to humankind. It might not bring us guarantees of, or means for, eternal life, but it can make life hella easier for us while we're here.
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          • Profile picture of the author lcombs
            Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

            Sure, it matters in the sense that there are people with curiosity.

            But in a physical sense, there has probably never been anything that mattered less.
            Yeah, well, you'll think it matters when we get caught up in an inter-dimensional war! :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Kurt
    I still believe the universe has a beginning in real time, at the big bang. But there's another kind of time, imaginary time, at right angles to real time, in which the universe has no beginning or end.
    - Stephen Hawking
    Here's my perpendicular universes!
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  • Profile picture of the author seasoned
    Reqarding the sphere circle theory, wouldn't it make more sense if it were a SERIES of circles, like on a Computer Assisted Tomography(AKA CAT scan) machine? If they saw a single circle, they would be missing SO much.

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    • Profile picture of the author lcombs
      Originally Posted by seasoned View Post

      Reqarding the sphere circle theory, wouldn't it make more sense if it were a SERIES of circles, like on a Computer Assisted Tomography(AKA CAT scan) machine? If they saw a single circle, they would be missing SO much.

      Steve
      Trying to apply 'shape' to infinity is an exercise in futility.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

    I still believe the universe has a beginning in real time, at the big bang. But there's another kind of time, imaginary time, at right angles to real time, in which the universe has no beginning or end. -Stephen Hawking
    It's called daylight savings time, and it starts next weekend if I'm not mistaken
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  • Profile picture of the author Basant Kumar
    its awesome discussion for me thank to every body ....
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  • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
    And space is a moment in time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Richard Van
      I've come on here today and so far I've looked through a thread with men wearing skirts and women built like Arnie and now this brain bender.

      I think I might have to have a lie down.
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    • Profile picture of the author lcombs
      Originally Posted by JimDucharme View Post

      And space is a moment in time.
      I thought time was a moment in space.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

        I thought time was a moment in space.
        Time is the fire in which we burn.
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        • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Time is the fire in which we burn.
          One of my favorite Gene Roddenberry quotes.
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          • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
            Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

            One of my favorite Gene Roddenberry quotes.
            I heard it in Star Trek Generations. It was said by Malcolm McDowell.

            When I heard it, I thought "Man, that sounds great".
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            • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
              Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

              I heard it in Star Trek Generations. It was said by Malcolm McDowell.

              When I heard it, I thought "Man, that sounds great".
              I first came across it on a quotation site. I thought it was great too. It went straight into my quotations collection. Do you remember if that's the exact phrase you heard? I've seen two ways, one like you wrote and one with "...we all burn." It's possible, I suppose, he used it both ways at different times.
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              • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                Originally Posted by Dennis Gaskill View Post

                I first came across it on a quotation site. I thought it was great too. It went straight into my quotations collection. Do you remember if that's the exact phrase you heard? I've seen two ways, one like you wrote and one with "...we all burn." It's possible, I suppose, he used it both ways at different times.
                Dennis; I remember it (and have seen it a few times) as "time is the fire in which we burn".

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        • Profile picture of the author MissTerraK
          Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

          Time is the fire in which we burn.
          I thought fire was the byproduct of burning time.


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      • Profile picture of the author JimDucharme
        Originally Posted by lcombs View Post

        I thought time was a moment in space.
        I don't have the space now to argue about time.
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
    "Concepts of the Universe

    First hour guest, author and theoretical physicist Alan Lightman talked about different concepts of the universe. There may be lots of different universes, and we just happen to be on one that allows life as know it, he remarked. The Universe has a temporary quality, with stars burning out, and everything eventually fading away, which contrasts with human beings' longing for permanence, he continued. Lightman also discussed the notion of a 'gargantuan' universe-- our telescopes have picked up light from galaxies that are so far away that its taken billions of years for that light to travel here."

    Lightman (Light man - interesting name for this topic) is an MIT professor. Guest on CoastToCoast. Before I fell asleep, I heard him say that there may be more than one universe and universes won't collide because they are in their own time zones.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
    I've been wondering, for about two weeks now, if time would exist at absolute zero. Zero movement and nothing changes. Nothing alive to perceive time. No electro-magnetic radiation given off by anything, of course.
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    • Profile picture of the author HeySal
      Originally Posted by David Maschke View Post

      I've been wondering, for about two weeks now, if time would exist at absolute zero. Zero movement and nothing changes. Nothing alive to perceive time. No electro-magnetic radiation given off by anything, of course.
      Since matter is just a clump of vibrating energy, I don't think that anything could exist in a true state of "nonmotion". It would have to be an empty vacuum for time to not exist.
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      Sal
      When the Roads and Paths end, learn to guide yourself through the wilderness
      Beyond the Path

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      • Profile picture of the author David Maschke
        Originally Posted by HeySal View Post

        Since matter is just a clump of vibrating energy, I don't think that anything could exist in a true state of "nonmotion". It would have to be an empty vacuum for time to not exist.
        That's what I found when I looked for an answer. Stupid Quantum Mechanics. Who elected the people when those laws were passed anyway?

        I found it fascinating how those vibrations seem to move in and out of reality.
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