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Productizing Website Design

by kemdev
29 replies
We're talking on a national scale.

The target market is business who want more leads, phone calls, free estimates, sales, etc...

How would you take website design and lead generation (typically a service) and transform it into a product you can replicate?
#design #productizing #website
  • Profile picture of the author SashaLee
    Hi there,

    I think GoDaddy websites is what you're talking about? In that case, you'd need major capital.

    If I'm off the mark - apologies.

    All the best,

    Sasha.
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    • Profile picture of the author kemdev
      Not exactly. Although I agree you would need capital to make this work.

      Google "websites for (industry)" to look at players doing along the lines of what I'm talking about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
    Are you talking about being able to take a market and create massive amounts of websites for that market?

    Example: Auto Mechanics, building sites based upon a similar theme, but with unique contact information, and images for their locale.

    Is your intent to sell low cost sites to a market group and then focus on creating leads for them?
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    I'm interested in how other people would make a product out of this service.

    Personally, I wouldn't try to sell a bunch of <$100/mo. sites. What I have in mind would have a mid-thousands price range, but all the sites would probably have to have a similar theme.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      If we start looking at this programmatically there are 4 basic elements to every page. There is a Header, A body, a sidebar, and a footer. And right down to bare basics there are only 2 kinds of pages; Full width ( no side bar ) and one with a side bar.

      Working from the bottom up ( because its easier ) we start with the footer. I would think 3 column layout. far left would be ( Company ) address and contact panel about us privacy statement etc. Middle would be depending on the service I think... uh hmm service area links ( community links ) - brands that are serviced - white papers - blog posts etc. Far right would then be social outlets mailing list and with the space reinforce logo ( branding ).

      Side bar is pretty much offer creative and optin form for the most part. if the site is more content heavy then some sort of blog related details go here.

      Body.. don't need any explaining here. the optin for a mid page opting or creative to reinforce the desired conversion ( optin, call, etc. )

      The header is where things get ugly. #1 there navigation. to preset or not? I would preset as many as possible, HOME, CONTACT US, ABOUT US, SERVICES, etc.

      To slider or not to slider.. Id have an option for one ( if I had to, and mass appeal you do )

      Logo. logo placement and size. not all logos are created equal. there again are 2 basic logo elements ones that are more square and the other that is more rectangular. From here you are left with what to do with the remainder of the space. I would say the use of this space is critical in the overall effectiveness of your product. A solid space for USP development above the fold is key.

      Was this the type of insight you were looking for?
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  • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
    The part that is confusing me is the lead generation portion.

    I'm assuming that is what takes the value to the mid-thousands, because I doubt you will get that for sites similarly themed with limited pages.

    Savidge4 lays out the plan for getting sites built with a basic design needed for lead generation, but unless you drive traffic or do SEO to create traffic, those opt-ins forms and phone numbers are going to be very lonely.

    Is that the portion you are trying to define? How you will bundle traffic to create leads for the clients?
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    • Profile picture of the author DABK
      I think you need to know what type of business would buy what you suggest...

      Probably it would have to be a size-based / income-based... They'd have to have the money but not so much money they could buy something totally for them or have an in-house web guy that can do more than add pages.

      They'd also have to see the value of having a site that's more than basic.

      Maybe a company that fixes up places after they have fire or flood damage... Restoration company... one that's not too big...

      Maybe a mortgage company with 3 or 4 loan officers and a couple of processors.

      Maybe an attorney practice with 3 or 4 attorneys?
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  • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
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    • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
      Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

      Then it seems you have pricing levels to build for them or let them build, and monthly services depending upon their budget and package choices.
      You're taking me right back to my point of confusion. I get it if he wants to do monthly lead generation as a service, but it sounds like he is excluding that idea by saying "website design and lead generation (typically a service) and transform it into a product".

      Ongoing lead generation almost has to be a service.
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      • Profile picture of the author savidge4
        Originally Posted by Barry Unruh View Post

        You're taking me right back to my point of confusion. I get it if he wants to do monthly lead generation as a service, but it sounds like he is excluding that idea by saying "website design and lead generation (typically a service) and transform it into a product".

        Ongoing lead generation almost has to be a service.
        I think if you look at what they have said.. they want an upfront.. with about $100 a month after... I would imagine there could be a boost in that monthly. Look at a site such as big commerce to do online e-commerce you generally end up in the $200 a month range.

        $1500 to $2000 for a site build and then $200 a month to develop citations and the like over time is not out of the park of standard. A little bit of article writing ( SEO ) and maybe some link development for your average local market you would get results.

        Step this model into big markets and I think the results may be a tad bit more complex to get.. but not out of the question of doable. I think selecting the niche industries to target is key. Stay away from the doctors lawyers and dentists of the world and I think the model could make a go of it
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        • Profile picture of the author Barry Unruh
          Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

          and then $200 a month to develop citations and the like over time is not out of the park of standard. A little bit of article writing ( SEO ) and maybe some link development for your average local market you would get results.
          Ok, I just re-read all of KemDev's posts. I still do not see where he states a monthly fee, and felt his OP stated the opposite. He wants to offer it as a product, not an ongoing monthly service.

          I thought he was implying he wanted to breakaway from the traditional mode of creation followed up with offering ongoing services.

          I guess we will just have to wait for KemDev to revisit the thread and clarify.
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          • Profile picture of the author kemdev
            Originally Posted by Barry Unruh View Post

            Ok, I just re-read all of KemDev's posts. I still do not see where he states a monthly fee, and felt his OP stated the opposite. He wants to offer it as a product, not an ongoing monthly service.

            I thought he was implying he wanted to breakaway from the traditional mode of creation followed up with offering ongoing services.

            I guess we will just have to wait for KemDev to revisit the thread and clarify.
            The product will have an ongoing cost, because it's necessary to make the product work. The product is a website that makes the phone ring.

            I want to breakaway from the traditional "web designer" persona because 1) I'm not a web designer and 2) I want to build equity in my company, not just make money.
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      • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
        Originally Posted by Barry Unruh View Post

        You're taking me right back to my point of confusion. I get it if he wants to do monthly lead generation as a service, but it sounds like he is excluding that idea by saying "website design and lead generation (typically a service) and transform it into a product".

        Ongoing lead generation almost has to be a service.
        I agree and without service, it seems like it would be a commodity. OR, maybe the client already has Leadpages or Salesforce or something in place for lead gen, but wants to use OP's platform (and SEO or PPC offerings?) for their website.

        I see the whole thing as a service - SAAS model with rates for customizations. I don't like the low end of the spectrum DIY, website builders. Unless it's a business that truly just needs a business card on the internet, such as a brick and mortar gift store with limited and ever changing inventory.

        Some of his potential clients may have IT departments, yet not be big enough to develop their
        own solution. Or, a solution like we are discussing makes economic sense versus reinventing
        the wheel.

        The company that provided the association platform for the group I was in would do customizations
        at their rate. Sometimes the answer was no they could not do that. We had some web designers and coders on board, but we understandably could not get access to make our own customizations. Proprietary for one thing. For another thing, doing "A" for us, or us doing "A" would mess up "B" for everybody else.

        The guy I know who does the Public Library stuff does it one to one, but he has quite his own system or platform
        built up by now. Your looking a stuff like is the user up to date on fees and no late books and what level of access do they have to the online services provided by the library. Data base of book inventory...
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    I'll explain a little more now that I have the time.

    I'm already in business - have been for a couple years selling lead-generating websites. The market is your typical contractor or service professional who wants more leads. So we're talking anything from HVAC to custom home building to mortgage officers to attorneys. My price range for a sick-ass website that ranks well and generates leads is $3-4,000 with a small monthly fee, usually <$600.

    I use Wordpress. I know how to use a theme and build a website that looks great and functions well. I also know how to drive traffic and make the phone ring. The entire hook behind my business is "We build websites that make the phone ring."

    I drive traffic with proper SEO, citation building, blogging, Facebook, Craigslist and an Adwords campaign setup to get the client moving. I'll also create and rank videos, publish blog posts elsewhere for links, and do other general link building when necessary - that's the bulk of the monthly fee.

    Being totally honest with myself, I don't have a business. I run a service right now. Is it a great service and do I have steady clients? Yes. Am I doing well and making money? Yes. I actually just moved into an office.

    But again being honest with myself, it's not a business. It won't run without me.

    So I know the first step to get out of this game of providing a service only has to be making that service into a product - something branded, something easily replicated, and something where whenever someone buys, they're building equity in my company. Sort of like with web hosting (which I do now) where you build up this customer base and there's a value associated with that if you ever wanted to sell everything.

    Step 1 has to be the platform - the website itself. I will need to hire someone to develop a theme (like a Themeforest theme) to my specifications that can be used for different clients in different niches. I'd need a couple variations of different headers (one for plumbers, HVAC, etc...) and variations of the graphics used (color schemes, menu presets, etc...). So on and so forth. This is something that will take some time developing and of course a couple thousand easily.

    But once you have that, you have your product.

    Like I said, this isn't going to be a pump-and-dump kinda thing where I'm just shilling websites for $20/mo. or something like that. The true value comes in the lead generation aspect - everything I do to drive traffic and make the phone ring. The website is just the vehicle. I already have a pretty good system in place of what I do for each website to accomplish this. This part will have the most variance between clients but it can still be somewhat systematic.

    I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.

    I know this won't be niche-specific - meaning just for plumbers or something like that. It will be for businesses who want a website that will make the phone ring.

    I'm just trying to formulate everything in my head. To me, this is the real step to actually building something with lasting value - something that can run without me or something that can eventually be sold.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Your model and the one I used in my site development business is very similar. I would really really think twice about theme development. Theme development unto itself is a full time job. keeping up with all of the changes in Wordpress etc is not such an easy task. I have a couple 5-6 that that are minute in coding but a real pain in maintenance. Take that to Theme level, and I seriously can not imagine.

      I got into child themes. I ended up using the woothemes framework ( updates start from this core ) As a "Developer" I was doing nothing more than customizing element templates. a far cry from theme development and left me with the task at hand, site development.

      For next to nothing you can outsource template work. I need this header to look like this. a day or so later and $50 or so you have a template. Or as I did hire a bunch of coders and do everything in house.

      The asset I developed was the back end development system that made the whole thing work. I went with a full blow Oracle based system ( I have a background in Oracle - so it was and is readily available to me, and I know how to program it ) From start to finish I had and have a work flow that dots all the "i's" and crosses all the "t's"

      by no means did it run itself... but my workforce knew what needed to be done to what and when. The value of my business came in this piece of software. Having the ability to look at a client level and see the logo is not in yet and click send a e-mail reminder of the needed logo.. well its nice LOL... to say we need images for this and this... click, another e-mail.

      If you can lay out your design process in a literal step by step and piece by piece format, you are so ahead of the game. The same is going to be true for your after build work as well. List of citations. which have been developed... we need to do this and this... Client needs 3 articles.. click mail sent.

      This is where the money should be invested.. not in building the sites, but in the processes that build sites. Building a tool that a team can use to complete projects. A tool that delegates the work to the right person and gets that element back at the right time. Your "JOB" should be looking over the final product, checking against the clients development list.. passing the job through, or creating a punch list. ( just like a contractor does with a house build )

      I go into this a bit here: http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...y-reports.html post #2 A real valid production model is house building. How to keep all those trades on schedule and on time. The grader has to come in first, then foundation then framers, then siders and roofers then interior systems then drywall then paint then finishes... its a well orchestrated system...

      Basically develop the same form, just for a different function. You can go about developing a system or find and replicate one that already works. That model works... and I will bet you have an existing client that would love to show you under the hood of their system! ( of course page mods would be free for a year! LOL )

      Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

      I'll explain a little more now that I have the time.

      I'm already in business - have been for a couple years selling lead-generating websites. The market is your typical contractor or service professional who wants more leads. So we're talking anything from HVAC to custom home building to mortgage officers to attorneys. My price range for a sick-ass website that ranks well and generates leads is $3-4,000 with a small monthly fee, usually <$600.

      I use Wordpress. I know how to use a theme and build a website that looks great and functions well. I also know how to drive traffic and make the phone ring. The entire hook behind my business is "We build websites that make the phone ring."

      I drive traffic with proper SEO, citation building, blogging, Facebook, Craigslist and an Adwords campaign setup to get the client moving. I'll also create and rank videos, publish blog posts elsewhere for links, and do other general link building when necessary - that's the bulk of the monthly fee.

      Being totally honest with myself, I don't have a business. I run a service right now. Is it a great service and do I have steady clients? Yes. Am I doing well and making money? Yes. I actually just moved into an office.

      But again being honest with myself, it's not a business. It won't run without me.

      So I know the first step to get out of this game of providing a service only has to be making that service into a product - something branded, something easily replicated, and something where whenever someone buys, they're building equity in my company. Sort of like with web hosting (which I do now) where you build up this customer base and there's a value associated with that if you ever wanted to sell everything.

      Step 1 has to be the platform - the website itself. I will need to hire someone to develop a theme (like a Themeforest theme) to my specifications that can be used for different clients in different niches. I'd need a couple variations of different headers (one for plumbers, HVAC, etc...) and variations of the graphics used (color schemes, menu presets, etc...). So on and so forth. This is something that will take some time developing and of course a couple thousand easily.

      But once you have that, you have your product.

      Like I said, this isn't going to be a pump-and-dump kinda thing where I'm just shilling websites for $20/mo. or something like that. The true value comes in the lead generation aspect - everything I do to drive traffic and make the phone ring. The website is just the vehicle. I already have a pretty good system in place of what I do for each website to accomplish this. This part will have the most variance between clients but it can still be somewhat systematic.

      I guess I'm just thinking out loud here.

      I know this won't be niche-specific - meaning just for plumbers or something like that. It will be for businesses who want a website that will make the phone ring.

      I'm just trying to formulate everything in my head. To me, this is the real step to actually building something with lasting value - something that can run without me or something that can eventually be sold.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    I'm thinking more along the lines of a central theme with a sophisticated backend - again, like the large themes you see selling on Themeforest. So you have this theme and a couple variations of header graphics, color schemes, etc... for different sets of clients (plumbers, attorneys, etc...). I don't know how much you've delved into Wordpress (I know you're an HTML fanboy) but in using that central theme, the logo, menu, content, etc... is very easy to put in place. It wouldn't be a matter of sending emails saying, "Okay, I need you to put in the logo" or "I need this graphic here." In the beginning stages, I would be working within the theme, making any adjustments, building out the content, etc... But in having that central theme, I can systematize the process and eventually teach others to do all that stuff for me.

    Although you are right, the maintenance is going to be an ongoing cost I will have to pay to the developer, not including the design of the theme itself which could be anywhere from $3-8,000 or even more. I'm not sure on the pricing yet, I'd have to post a job and look at some quotes.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

      I don't know how much you've delved into Wordpress (I know you're an HTML fanboy) but in using that central theme, the logo, menu, content, etc... is very easy to put in place. It wouldn't be a matter of sending emails saying, "Okay, I need you to put in the logo" or "I need this graphic here."
      I think you have misunderstood what I have said. #1 I am dang near 100% Wordpress at this point. I do play with the Foundation platform more and more right now... but more on my personal projects than for clients. I actually run a pretty popular WP Forum on top of it! LOL ( if you cant beat them join them ) so I have delved into Wordpress.

      The backend I created is a full blow VPN based data base that can be connected to from anywhere. There are not e-mails going back and forth to tell people what to do.. they are sent to clients to get the elements we need to finish the work. Telling people what to do is dependent on work load and skills set in the back end. it balances work load when it can. I have only 1 graphic designer and 1 social media specialist.. so they get all of that work.

      as they complete what is supposed to be done it is placed in the DB for the "programmers" to access and implement. The programmers are given the layout specs IE Header Footer Body and Sidebar details and develop ( replicate is a better term ) the templates as needed. As I said I went the route of child theme vs full blow Theme Dev.

      I think that aspect alone saved my hide more than once. The Mystile theme is a good base, or the twenty whatevers.. its all about developing the templates.. there is no need to develop a theme. My own personal investigation led me to using wooframwork as the base. Its the first in the chain to be upgraded... so all I am doing is ensuring that anything I may have done custom isn't breaking to far out of "Best Practices"

      Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

      In the beginning stages, I would be working within the theme, making any adjustments, building out the content, etc... But in having that central theme, I can systematize the process and eventually teach others to do all that stuff for me.
      Again cant say this enough... its all in the page templates Get the effects you want with the least amount of code possible.. there is no need to plug and adapt PHP and pile on CSS to get a look, when you can simply create the Template to give you the structure you want. Cleaner... easier.. and as close to "Best Practices" as you are going to get. and all of this without the hassle of Theme Dev headaches.

      Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

      Although you are right, the maintenance is going to be an ongoing cost I will have to pay to the developer, not including the design of the theme itself which could be anywhere from $3-8,000 or even more. I'm not sure on the pricing yet, I'd have to post a job and look at some quotes.
      Start watching some wordpress blogs WP Tavern in particular... you start seeing what some of these Theme devs get into... my oh my... they loose everything they have worked for in a "simple" little update.. its crazy the crap you will read on this stuff.... and yet the pull their theme off of Wordpress.com ( well it gets thrown off ) and they place it over on ThemeForest... Its crap.. it doesn't meet the standards to pass code requirements and they still pass it along... ( There are exceptions here of course ) but a great number of the sites there simply do not meet standard.. and its because the dev doesn't know how to make it that way.

      If you REALLY step back for a moment and think about what you are suggesting... why not just get into theme dev? Make 2 or 3 different models for each niche, and just be the source for the themes... you would sell thousands..10's of thousands keep them all on the same framework and let loose. probably save you a ton of time and headache.. just bring in a dev or 2 below you and crank.

      Then you could integrate as a Theme Dev a build it for you solution that you are now charging more for and with the added ability to produce results.... you have just built a Brand with value.
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      • Profile picture of the author kemdev
        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


        The backend I created is a full blow VPN based data base that can be connected to from anywhere. There are not e-mails going back and forth to tell people what to do.. they are sent to clients to get the elements we need to finish the work. Telling people what to do is dependent on work load and skills set in the back end. it balances work load when it can. I have only 1 graphic designer and 1 social media specialist.. so they get all of that work.

        as they complete what is supposed to be done it is placed in the DB for the "programmers" to access and implement. The programmers are given the layout specs IE Header Footer Body and Sidebar details and develop ( replicate is a better term ) the templates as needed. As I said I went the route of child theme vs full blow Theme Dev.
        That's the thing. My average client doesn't know what he wants/needs. If they don't have a logo, I create it. I take care of all website content. I take choose and take care of any graphical needs. All they send me is photos of previous work and testimonials, which is generally gathered at the time of the sale or within one week. Everything is hands off for the customer.

        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


        I think that aspect alone saved my hide more than once. The Mystile theme is a good base, or the twenty whatevers.. its all about developing the templates.. there is no need to develop a theme. My own personal investigation led me to using wooframwork as the base. Its the first in the chain to be upgraded... so all I am doing is ensuring that anything I may have done custom isn't breaking to far out of "Best Practices"
        Why spend time and resources building new templates whenever they can be included with the development of one theme?

        Galleries, portfolio, staff, events, documents, etc... all these templates or taxonomies can be included in one central theme. Shortcodes can be used. Many themes come with a "visual builder" or something similar. The revolution slider and other sliders. You get all of these things with a central theme. I don't see the reasoning to create templates based on standard themes and tweak them every time you want to do something new.

        Again, I'm not a developer. I don't write code. I work within themes, and that's been my experience for the past couple years. That's what I know and the product I'm hoping to build should stay along that premise.


        Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post


        If you REALLY step back for a moment and think about what you are suggesting... why not just get into theme dev? Make 2 or 3 different models for each niche, and just be the source for the themes... you would sell thousands..10's of thousands keep them all on the same framework and let loose. probably save you a ton of time and headache.. just bring in a dev or 2 below you and crank.
        I have no desire to learn the skills necessary to develop a website from the ground up. I will gladly pay a professional to build the platform. The value of what I provide is from the work that goes into promoting the website after it's completed. Of course, a key part of that is the website itself - it has to function well and convert.

        I'll put it like this...

        If someone just started a business and wants a website that will work, I can sell them a $1,000 website, build 30 citations, do on-page for one location, Google Yahoo and Bing, set up Facebook and Youtube, host them of course, hand them the reigns and know they have a fighting shot of getting business from it.

        If someone has a shitty website, is an established business, and wants more leads, I can sell them a $3,000 website + monthly fee (should be closer to 6k), do everything I do on the lower tiered one, build more citations, add individual pages for services targeting specific locations (usually around 6 or more), do some link building, craigslist ads, Facebook management, PPC setup, videos, etc... and know they're going to get a sizeable increase in leads over the next couple months.

        The "platform" (aka theme) should be used for each of those scenarios. And I should be able to work within that theme to make each customer's site look unique (doesn't have to be totally... I don't care about 100% custom).

        The platform cuts down on "build time" and lets me focus more on lead-generation, the aspect of the work that brings my customers results and keeps them coming back.

        The branding aspect of it allows me to play in a national market. A ways down the road, but eventually. And all of a sudden I'm not a "web designer" I'm selling a "lead generation tool." So it's not "will it look good" but rather "does it work?" And yes, it does work.

        The local business website of the future.

        But without education, a business owner doesn't realize it's not the website itself, it's the work that happens after the website is up. I don't want to swim the current against that. I want to be able to say, "Here's a website that makes the phone ring." Everyone understand that.
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        • Profile picture of the author savidge4
          Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

          I have no desire to learn the skills necessary to develop a website from the ground up. I will gladly pay a professional to build the platform. The value of what I provide is from the work that goes into promoting the website after it's completed. Of course, a key part of that is the website itself - it has to function well and convert.
          I get this, I see it.. I hear you...you are not listening to what I am saying... don't bother with the THEME... use a stock free one and develop the Templates... files like content.php and header.php and sidebar.php and footer.php. THESE are the elements you develop as "Custom" and you can probably hire someone right out of high School to do it for you. ( I hired a college grad )

          An example. I use the WooTheme Theme Mystile. I have 4 basic sets of templates that give me 4 different overall appearances. Fixed top nav no header, Fixed top nav with header to include 2 variations ( slider / no slider ), Full Width, and the last is side bar left.

          from there I have alternative sets for say the header to include logo far left and text box to the right and some other common configurations.

          I also have 1 other template that I use for a landing page.. its blank.. no nav what so ever no header no footer... just a blank slate. Why pay leadpages for anything when its this simple?

          All you have to do is remove the stock templates from a theme, and replace them with your custom ones... the customer is going to work within the frame work you have provided and there is no messing this up. AND there is no Theme Dev in this process what so ever.

          You are the one saying 3 to $8000 for a THEME.. you seriously DONT need one. Wordpress is Wordpress its the Templates that separate one from the other.

          The only thing you need at that point is a plugin like: https://wordpress.org/plugins/massiv...ayout-builder/ and you are all but set.

          Spend the money on the backend development how to get jobs from point a to point b without you being involved.... getting the work to the person that is skilled in the required labor. If you do everything in house that's great. Logo's goto the art department... and from there the client back and forth and digital signed ok of proof, and in the database it goes for the guy/gal that puts all the pieces together.

          think Henry Ford... think production. all these pieces from around the office or around the world all coming together in the end to create a masterpiece of a site.
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            so you really want to sell sites.. put your money where your mouth is and guarantee ROI within 180 days... or their money back... In my twink little market I had a 120 day guarantee, and only one customer got a check for the cost of the site. And the truth be told they were a local influencer and I "missed" by 4% on purpose... I about had to go to DMV to steal one of those ticket machines after they blabbed on about how I dropped off a check. - best screw up of my life! <wink>
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          • Profile picture of the author massiveray
            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            Why pay leadpages for anything when its this simple?
            Off the shelf templates get me these results, not saying you can't achieve them, but this is like 2 mins work per page.

            So easy and I'm seeing excellent results, and I can code PHP pretty quickly. I also love the option of publishing to facebook, on your own server, wordpress or using their hosted version, all in like 4 clicks.

            Attachment 22879

            Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

            And the truth be told they were a local influencer and I "missed" by 4% on purpose... I about had to go to DMV to steal one of those ticket machines after they blabbed on about how I dropped off a check. - best screw up of my life! <wink>
            LOVE THIS!! hahahaha
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            • Profile picture of the author kemdev
              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              so you really want to sell sites.. put your money where your mouth is and guarantee ROI within 180 days... or their money back... In my twink little market I had a 120 day guarantee, and only one customer got a check for the cost of the site. And the truth be told they were a local influencer and I "missed" by 4% on purpose... I about had to go to DMV to steal one of those ticket machines after they blabbed on about how I dropped off a check. - best screw up of my life! <wink>
              I'm understanding what you're saying about the templates, but I don't think that will work for me. I understand that it CAN and WILL work, but it's not for me. I want to use what I know, and what I can readily teach other people to do for me.

              Stumbled upon the Be theme from MuffinGroup. Check it out - it's a good example of what I want. It may be exactly what I need even. It's probably more reasonable for me to pay ~60 per project rather than shell out a couple grand up front anyway. I'll have to buy it and test it out.

              Originally Posted by massiveray View Post

              Off the shelf templates get me these results, not saying you can't achieve them, but this is like 2 mins work per page.

              So easy and I'm seeing excellent results, and I can code PHP pretty quickly. I also love the option of publishing to facebook, on your own server, wordpress or using their hosted version, all in like 4 clicks.

              Attachment 22879



              LOVE THIS!! hahahaha
              I've experimented with LeadPages before for paid traffic (small campaigns), but they aren't the best option for me since I build large websites and focus on SEO to drive the majority of my traffic.

              Paid traffic is an animal I haven't quite tackled yet. I know it will be a HUGE addition to the efforts I already use to make the phone ring, but I'm not good enough at building and scaling campaigns to sell it right now.
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              • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                Be theme looks nice... I don't think it would be something I would use in a production environment. Here would be a couple of pitfalls there that I would consider. Parallax is cool I get it, but its not for everyone. The load time is inconsistent meaning the further you are from the host server the worse they load. bad load = bunce, and in the business of leads.. bounce is bad.

                without really looking and making a basic assumption it was developed using bootstrap and then migrated across to wordpress framework. Again I don't have an issue with this, lots of themes do it. But a theme such as this has its minuses in terms of SEO. There is considerable "<head>" code to make these things work, and you are displacing the code that matters way further down the page. You may not see the effect of this in twink markets but you get into a high volume market and you will be scratching your head why its not positioning well.

                As a business owner.... we have to look at things in dollars and cents. how many hours start to finish does it take to build and publish a 5 page website with this? ( well 5 segments ) Count all of your time to get all the text.. all the images everything you need. how long?

                I will tell you the system I am suggesting I am right in the 10 hour mark. At $1000 for the simple site, that means I am grossing $100 per hour. If I am building this on my own, and in the comfort of my own home that is one thing. you start adding office expenses and employees.... you quickly find you are needing to pump at least one of these a day out.

                I was producing 7 to 10 pages in the same amount of time for on average $1500 a crack and my total profit margin was at about 40% IF we were bum rushing these out the door 2 a day 6 days a week. The margin dropped during lower volume. ( expenses stay consistent and the amount in becomes less )

                Right now because it sounds like you are transitioning from "I" to "we" your work flow has to change. you have to systemize what it is YOU do, so that others can step in and do the "I" stuff so it becomes "we" stuff. Using a theme that allows for 100+ variations.... your shooting yourself in the foot.

                Pre designing templates for 4 layouts and a few added variations streamlines the process not only on the back end.. but on the front end.. the sales. The client picks a look. the client picks the overall site colors ( at this point you can go right into "stylesheet.css" and make all of these changes in a text editor vs jumping in your theme and going from screen to screen to make these changes ).

                you then know you need a logo.. you need images for this this and that page. you need to develop text for this and that and the other page. I personally used a form that was sent to the client to fill in. hours and any available text upload the logo etc.

                Think about that process for a moment. the layout is done. the color of the layout is done and now we are only needing to fill in pages. do you see how the page is literally almost done at this point?

                So, we remove all of the "other" style sheet options. we remove all of the other template options. I now have made the site as backend client bullet proof as possible. They can only add and change with in the framework that we have set up. ( saves on the hassles later when a client goes in and tries to "quick fix" something )

                So we at this point are building forms and inserting text and placing images. doing the little things we do for SEO type stuff and the job is done.

                The important thing to understand here is how compartmentalized the process has become. there are defined things that need art work. there are defined writing tasks. there is a defined programming structure phase. There is a defined bringing all the pieces together phase. then you can add in the defined Quality assurance element. then there is a defined delivery phase.

                All of those "phases" are "we" phases YOU have nothing to do with any of it. THAT is a system that can be ramped up and scaled. I am not hearing ( seeing ) the terms in your language that you are there yet.. it sounds more like you are fighting the concept. you are so concerned with the how do I sell it... and the most important part of the equation is how am you are going to fulfill the work. Selling is the easy part.
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                • Profile picture of the author kemdev
                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  Be theme looks nice... I don't think it would be something I would use in a production environment. Here would be a couple of pitfalls there that I would consider. Parallax is cool I get it, but its not for everyone. The load time is inconsistent meaning the further you are from the host server the worse they load. bad load = bunce, and in the business of leads.. bounce is bad.
                  I rarely use the parallax feature, if at all.

                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  without really looking and making a basic assumption it was developed using bootstrap and then migrated across to wordpress framework. Again I don't have an issue with this, lots of themes do it. But a theme such as this has its minuses in terms of SEO. There is considerable "<head>" code to make these things work, and you are displacing the code that matters way further down the page. You may not see the effect of this in twink markets but you get into a high volume market and you will be scratching your head why its not positioning well.
                  I've read your posts on this subject and I honestly don't think it matters as much as you seem to think. Granted, I am working in "twink" markets for the most part where there's not a huge amount of competition, but I'm confident in my process and I don't think a couple extra lines in the Head are going to keep my sites from ranking. I'll eat my words if this proves to not be the case.

                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  As a business owner.... we have to look at things in dollars and cents. how many hours start to finish does it take to build and publish a 5 page website with this? ( well 5 segments ) Count all of your time to get all the text.. all the images everything you need. how long?
                  I don't typically build 5 page websites, and I don't charge $1000.

                  Everything I do is lead generation through organic rankings, so most of my projects have anywhere from 50-250 pages. Total build time is probably close to the 6-9 hour mark on these projects, with an additional 2 hours or so doing everything else.

                  Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

                  All of those "phases" are "we" phases YOU have nothing to do with any of it. THAT is a system that can be ramped up and scaled. I am not hearing ( seeing ) the terms in your language that you are there yet.. it sounds more like you are fighting the concept. you are so concerned with the how do I sell it... and the most important part of the equation is how am you are going to fulfill the work. Selling is the easy part.
                  I am fighting the concept, because that's not how I want to do it. I think I can produce a higher quality (ie better looking) product at a faster turnaround time utilizing themes because that's what I know how to do.

                  Fulfillment? That's not going to be a problem. Once I get past 5 new large projects a month, yes the system will have to be there for me to grow. But right now that's not the case, and I'm not there. Regardless, a theme setting won't hinder my process whatsoever, so I have no desire to shake that up.

                  While I do appreciate all of your insight and advice, this thread wasn't originally meant to be about the nuts and bolts of the websites themselves. I was more looking for advice on how to bring a product like this to market.
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                  • Profile picture of the author DABK
                    What kind of clients do you have now?

                    How did you get those?

                    Basic questions, but if you answer them again, you might get some insight.

                    If they'd buy (and, from my understanding of what you said) there's no reason they wouldn't...

                    You could sell the frame of a website, like so many... but you would combine it with a few services.

                    You could sell what WIX and weebly sell, in other words...

                    Or you could sell that and, instead of just "type your title here"

                    you could give them the option of having a professional do it for them, once they decide on theme and input their info...

                    Pacakge 1: basic site
                    Package 2: basic site + one of our copywriters will write your home page, about us page and x landing pages
                    Package 3: basic site + one of our copywriters will write your home page, about us page and x landing pages + one of our highly trained in marketing videographers will produce 1 3-minute video for the home page and 1 2-minute video for each landing pages

                    Doesn't really get away from services, but,
                    if you set it us as: they choose option 3, automatically, a project manager gets notified of the new client needs/wants and within minutes chooses copywriter and a videographer on your staff. Who, within 24 hours they contact the client to gather whatever info is needed, you'll be a lot less involved...

                    An SEO person, an Adwords person, a Craigslist person, a telemarketer (these could, of course, be also part of the team and get notified when needed, etc.)

                    Assumes good manager, good copywriter, good vidoegrapher (good and reliable, I mean) and a process that's spelled out in great detail, so each person involved knows the 1 or 7 things he/she need to do, when to start and when to finish, and what quality work is required.

                    And all these people need a good system of sharing info/talking about the project...

                    The advantage of your system, if basic is chosen, is that, unlike Wix, you could make suggestions (the homepage template opens up and it says, for instance, image goes here (make sure to use your main keyword in the title and to geotag the photo... For information on step-by-step geotaging click here).

                    And advice on internal links... So, they don't waste links on irrelevant products... And advice on how to create good navigation...

                    You have to have everybody's roles cleared spelled out, the job broken into logical parts (you could have the copywriter be in charge of collecting info about the company and write copy... or someone else collects the info and the copy writer only writes.... I don't know which is better at producing the best result in terms of copy... but the one where the copywriter only writes gets the copy written faster). And, you'd need to be able to get people who can perform in the required time...

                    Not an easy task.
                    Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

                    I was more looking for advice on how to bring a product like this to market.
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                  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
                    If you read again above what you just stated the minor nuts and bolts you think is not of interest has everything to do with the growth you are wanting to undertake. I have been there, and I got beat up in steps as I went along.

                    I was developing monster 1 month project sites 30K+ The time to money ratio just is not there, and its hard to grow that model. I dropped into the 15K+ one a week model.. again a lot of work and the margins were simply not there. and on top of it, it was getting harder and harder to get this type of client.

                    So then I made the last leap into the $1500+ range. In a years time WE were averaging +/- 3 sites a day. worked out to 20 sites a week most weeks.

                    The progress in these steps in terms of employees was Me and 1 person. Me and 3 people. And where I am at right now me and 7 people.

                    Look at the Gross income potential in these steps 30K a month. 60K a month, and then 120K a month. THAT is growth. And it took the development of a system to get there.

                    So now lets answer the question of what type of advertising you should do. Right now? get on the phone. you only need 5 clients a month. 3 hours a day every day on the phone more than likely will produce those type of numbers for you.

                    IF you go bigger than that.. say you get 10 clients all at once... you are now booked out 2.5 months... not a bad place to be in, if your not the client. Lots and lots of cool off time if you ask me.

                    So you build up a advertising campaign and you get to the point of swamped and then you have to cut the campaign off because you have to much work.

                    THIS is a telling point in the direction you need to be advertising in. what can you turn off and on? PPC.. I think that is just short of your only possible solution.

                    To offer exact advice on "what to do" if we do not understand what you are doing is straight up foolish. I now have a pretty good idea of what you do.. so there is some exact advice on the advertising path you should take.
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                    • Profile picture of the author JohnyJame
                      i must say that i am learning so many things from this platform.
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  • Profile picture of the author kemdev
    The HOW of the platform doesn't really concern me now. I know I'll have to hire a good theme developer, I know it's going to cost a pretty penny for startup, and I know there's going to be ongoing maintenance.

    I'm more interested in the HOW of the business model itself. Assuming I already had this platform built, how would you take a product like this to market?

    I'm not talking about cold-calling or whatever. I'm talking about the big picture here.
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    • Profile picture of the author savidge4
      Originally Posted by kemdev View Post

      The HOW of the platform doesn't really concern me now. I know I'll have to hire a good theme developer, I know it's going to cost a pretty penny for startup, and I know there's going to be ongoing maintenance.

      I'm more interested in the HOW of the business model itself. Assuming I already had this platform built, how would you take a product like this to market?

      I'm not talking about cold-calling or whatever. I'm talking about the big picture here.
      Lead gen lead gen lead gen.. any way you can get it. I would suppose a kick tail website center stage with massive e-mail marketing efforts. Facebook and linkedin hardcore I would be looking at trade mag ads as well. There comes a point when you bite the big bullet and you start targeting niche by niche with mailer pieces, but you need to develop the cash flow.

      Look into white label offerings with Chamber of Commerce types.. anything that can maximize exposure to increase revenue, and from that then work more on the branded end of things once the capital is on the right side of the ledger.
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  • Profile picture of the author massiveray
    I'm selling similar funnel type packages, totally different industries but essentially the same outline.

    Landing pages + traffic + retargeting + conversion rate optimisation = lead gen

    I'm not so sure why you are concentrating on the theme aspect of this as it really is the smallest part. I used to build out sites for people and now I just use leadpages, setup a wordpress site with the leadpages plugin and publish the content directly to it from within leadpages.

    Productising lead gen is pretty difficult but not impossible.

    My current package looks like:
    4 landing pages
    Ad account setup & audience research (Facebook)
    4 ad creatives (Facebook)
    Retargeting setup for the 4 pages (Facebook)
    1 CRO element tested monthly (either an ad change, landing page change, etc etc)
    Blah blah etc

    I have other options that include adwords, bing, media buys, perfect audience etc etc but the more services you use the harder it is to productise so I actually prefer my clients to take the lowest package.

    The point being that each of the elements above is automated as much as possible and very specific once an order comes in.

    While the client is paying they fill in a form that has 13 fields, I then send the relevant fields to 4 different outsourced staff. These people have very specific sets of instructions and processes to follow (in the form of boards in trello, which allows me to add or removes steps etc as the system evolves).

    I use gumroad to charge and it sends the client out a list of instructions to do that I need in order to fulfil the service.

    It's a different take in what you are proposing, but in my experience a much less stressful one.

    I only use paid traffic to generate leads, which is fine in the industries I target, but you would probably need to integrate other forms for the ones you do.

    Anyway my point being, leadpages has been a game changer for me, it is much quicker to setup than anything I have had built, conversion rates are great and if it is ever required I can download the HTML and input it into wordpress as a template, but I haven't needed to yet, and all tracking is included if set up correctly.

    I love the built in split testing (which I absolutely destroy).

    It's still a few hours per month work per client, but this is as close as I have got to selling lead gen as a product.

    The most important part of my strategy is having the systems in place for people to follow. It means I can mostly plug new people in if somebody leaves the team and I just plug myself in where I am needed for security reasons.

    Nobody has enough pieces of the puzzle to steal my clients and so far everything is pretty stress free and nicely profitable.

    Something to think about maybe, kinda lost what the thread was about maybe but just sharing something that I'm doing in a similar vein to yourself.
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