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Changing culture

by socialentry
19 replies
The other day, I was listening a debate on China between Fareed Zakaria and an economist whose name I forgot while cleaning my place.

At some point an economist on the pro-china said (I paraphrase horribly):
"China pump out more Ph.D grads then any other country in the world.... and STEM grads, not ones in media studies. "

As part of his response, Zakaria made this quip:

"In terms of R&D Apple spends in a decade what Microsoft spends in a year and is now bigger then Microsoft."

"Perhaps that's what a Ph.D in media studies buys you"


t I was surprised by the R&D spending. It's true that Microsoft tries to be a lot more things at the same time then Apple, but even then. This lead me to ponder how Apple got to be so successful.

Some argue that they are better( highly debatable but I disgress), but even then that doesn't account for most of Apple's success.

nVidia graphic cards are objectively better then their main competitors in most aspects except price, but I don't think anyone identifies with nVidia the same way Apple fanboys identify with Apple.


Then there's this:

I have an acquaintance who thought that buying Apple was making a social statement. He was quite passionate about it too but upon further probing, he wasn't quite able to say which social statement was that. Not being particularly tech savy, he could not explain why Mac were the superior choice either.

How strange. How can you be so passionate about something and not understand what you're passionate about?

Somehow, Jobs succeeded in creating an identity centered around a computer for people who don't like computers.

I often wonder why it is so difficult to change individuals by logical persuasion one-on-one but why it is relatively easy for people to change opinions if they think the rest of their tribe have changed opinion.

Ironically, it might be easier to change a whole culture then it is to change a single individual.

Thoughts?
#changing #culture
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  • Profile picture of the author Chett
    Maybe it's difficult to change individuals opinions by logical persuasion one-on-one because it wasn't through reason and logic that they came to hold that belief in the first place.
    If their tribe changes opinion maybe that creates an emotional response in that they no longer feel that sense of belonging.

    I guess changing peoples opinion through emotion is easier than through logic and reason.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by Chett View Post

      Maybe it's difficult to change individuals opinions by logical persuasion one-on-one because it wasn't through reason and logic that they came to hold that belief in the first place.
      If their tribe changes opinion maybe that creates an emotional response in that they no longer feel that sense of belonging.

      That's it. Peer acceptance, accepted societal norms, cultural expectations, societal bonds, identifying with a group....are more powerful influences than rational arguments.

      Decades ago, engineers wanted to be different. They wanted to prove their individuality. And to do that, they bought the Volkswagen Beetle.

      And if you would go to a company parking lot that employed lots of engineers, you would see a sea of Beetles. Even being an individualist is a self identity that makes you be attracted to other individualists. And you end up all being the same. Because you want to be seen as an individualist...like every other individualist...still fitting in with your niche.

      I saw a corporate photo or a board of directors. It had the caption "Diversity". And it had women...all white women. I thought it was funny.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    How strange. How can you be so passionate about something and not understand what you're passionate about?

    Happens all the time in religion and politics - people believe based on emotion or reaction to something else....not on proven fact.


    relatively easy for people to change opinions if they think the rest of their tribe have changed opinion.

    Herd mentality - powerful stuff.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Happens all the time in religion and politics - people believe based on emotion or reaction to something else....not on proven fact.

      I can understand why someone would do so in politics. I think most people feel at a guttural level an "us vs them" mentality. (not that I endorse this line of thinking of course).



      But an Apple product is just a tool. If Apple goes under, what of it?

      The attachment to Apple is as strange to me as identifying with a wrench or a graphic card, however good a tool it may be.
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      • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post


        The attachment to Apple is as strange to me as identifying with a wrench or a graphic card, however good a tool it may be.
        Some people think of Apple (or any company) as their tribe...or a part of their tribe.

        Remember Cabbage Patch Dolls? Probably not. But decades ago, they were extremely in demand. Fights would break out at toy stores over the last doll.

        Why? Because the dolls represented part of their identity.

        The car you drive, the place you live, how you dress....these things are part of our identity. How we see ourselves, and how others see us.

        A friend of mine bought a Rolex watch for $8,000. He showed it to me. To me, it meant nothing. But to him, it was part of his identity.

        Human nature is fascinating.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    <snip>
    I was surprised by the R&D spending. It's true that Microsoft tries to be a lot more things at the same time then Apple, but even then. This lead me to ponder how Apple got to be so successful.

    <snip>

    Thoughts?

    Marketing is how Apple got to be so successful, specifically "Jobs Marketing" as it is called in every college business class.
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    • Profile picture of the author WF- Enzo
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      Yes. Just watch their product launches. Loved the way Steve Jobs presented the first-gen iPhone back in 2007.

      Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

      Marketing is how Apple got to be so successful, specifically "Jobs Marketing" as it is called in every college business class.
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  • Profile picture of the author Princess Balestra
    Always, there is mood music playin'.

    Don't matter if'n it is random or the designed exotica of the malefic -- thing is, we all way too mortal to be experts regardin' hoomanity's ebb & flow of values.

    Two choices here.

    Flow with what is gowin', swim on along, swell proud with the exotica of crowd-centric righteousness.

    Or complain your frickin' ass off bcs this is real lame an' you figure better ansahs.

    In my deepest serenest peace, I would wish always for those first choice angels to win out.

    So easy, so sweet, so forevah true!

    But that might mean we still clubbin' one another to death & livin' in caves, oblivious to the temporary relief from all of our travails even the worst kinda coffee bars offah.

    Thing 'bout singin' along or swingin' out on a noo song is how any kinda toon depends on whoevah happens to be around to sing.

    In my frightfulest shallowest monsterhood, I would wish always to be a benevolent bitch queen.

    If mass consent counts for anythin', it starts out with Numbah One.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Many times, unclear folks filled with fear mistake wild excitement and closed-mindedness for passion. Genuine passion is fun, open-ness and wisdom. Detachment. These folks fully understand what they believe in, and value, and need not convince anyone else because they already convinced themselves.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by ryanbiddulph View Post

      Many times, unclear folks filled with fear mistake wild excitement and closed-mindedness for passion. Genuine passion is fun, open-ness and wisdom. Detachment. These folks fully understand what they believe in, and value, and need not convince anyone else because they already convinced themselves.

      Did anyone ever tell you that you'd make a great NPC in Grand Theft Auto VI?


      I would send an email to the developpers immeditely if I were you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Sometimes a culture change is a real shock to me.


    I redently learned that 3 young women I know (18-21 ages) can't read a 'standard' clock face. They have no idea what the big hand and little hands are doing...


    Products of the digital age...I thought they were kidding me but they were serious - unless its 'digital' they can't tell time.



    Two of these women are taking college classes....
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  • Profile picture of the author misterme
    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

    How strange. How can you be so passionate about something and not understand what you're passionate about?
    Because you're looking at this with the view that their passion has to be based on facts, knowledge, logic and reason whereas it's actually based on emotion, which doesn't have fact, knowledge, logic or reason. Simply put, you're looking at the night sky and expecting to see daylight.

    Like, "what does she see in him that I'm not seeing?" Well, she's infatuated with the way he makes her feel. It doesn't need to make sense to you.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by misterme View Post

      Because you're looking at this with the view that their passion has to be based on facts, knowledge, logic and reason whereas it's actually based on emotion, which doesn't have fact, knowledge, logic or reason. Simply put, you're looking at the night sky and expecting to see daylight.


      Like, "what does she see in him that I'm not seeing?" Well, she's infatuated with the way he makes her feel. It doesn't need to make sense to you.
      Yes, but you can use reason to understand emotion.


      I've heard it often but I always felt "it's emotion" is a bit of too much of a blanket statement to be very useful.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Yes, but you can use reason to understand emotion.


        I've heard it often but I always felt "it's emotion" is a bit of too much of a blanket statement to be very useful.



        and that is the one of the reasons why people that say that have never made any money on the internet.


        People like that are socially inept when dealing with other people.


        People like that think they can attract attention, i.e. attention whores that live in their parent's basement, addicted to energy drinks, trolling forums making lame and uneducated attempts at making other people hit the ignore button.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by Jeffery View Post

          [/LEFT]
          People like that think they can attract attention, i.e. attention whores that live in their parent's basement, addicted to energy drinks, trolling forums making lame and uneducated attempts at making other people hit the ignore button.
          Hey! Hey! My Mom has a very nice basement, thank you very much.
          And I'm not addicted. I can quit any time I wan. I just don't want to.
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      • Profile picture of the author misterme
        Originally Posted by socialentry View Post

        Yes, but you can use reason to understand emotion.
        You ever hear someone say about another person's behavior, "they're crazy! What they're doing doesn't make any sense!"? They draw that conclusion because the behavior they're observing doesn't make any sense to them. What they're missing is that the other person is reasoning differently than the observer thinks they themselves would or how they believe someone should act.

        So, some people may be able to use reason to understand emotion while for others, it would be difficult if not impossible.

        But that's not what the OP's question was about, and not what I was replying to.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Your basement is nice because your mom would rather keep you there instead of the rest of the house. Hey it took me more than 60 years to figure that out. Young uns
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  • Profile picture of the author eccj
    Originally Posted by socialentry View Post


    Ironically, it might be easier to change a whole culture then it is to change a single individual.

    Thoughts?
    Aristotle noted that some people cannot be changed with reason but can be persuaded with rhetoric.

    I wouldn't want to live in a world where everyone used pure reason. I doubt anyone would get out of bed and we would all die and that would be that....

    Not so fun and THAT doesn't make much sense to me.

    Everyone else having an Apple gizmo is a good reason to a lot of people to have such a gizmo. I get that.

    I don't buy Apple because I think Apple stuff is kinda..... feminine. And taking the time to make an honest to goodness "logical" decision on which computer to buy would take so much time that when weighed against the loss of time is "illogical."

    I would take a break from all things academic if I were you. Maybe play a team sport or something. You'll get a whole new perspective. All the rubes have other things in their lives that inform decisions that those in the ivory tower never consider.

    But if you need an academic explanation, check out Skin In The Game by Taleb.
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    • Profile picture of the author socialentry
      Originally Posted by eccj View Post

      I would take a break from all things academic if I were you. Maybe play a team sport or something. You'll get a whole new perspective. All the rubes have other things in their lives that inform decisions that those in the ivory tower never consider.
      I think the WF would benefit if it took one thing or two from academia...

      A (healthy) open debate culture would not be a bad start.

      And yes, I understand the perspective of people outside the tower better then most think for the reason scholarship is simply not valued in the province where I am residing.


      I'm not sure how anybody could lock himself up in the tower if he wanted to, the whole culture is ultra-utilitarian. E.g. if it doesn't make money down the road (preferably next week... or in the next hour while we're at it), it's worthless.
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