Backlinking Not Required for Page 1 Ranking.

by KevL
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  • SEO
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I'm starting this post because I was involved in a discussion with another thread which has just dissappeared.... so I thought I'd create a new one.

I replied to another post about having problems after some recent backlinking with a new site - I had a couple of very puzzled replies along the lines of "backlinks are the only way to do it" and "How else do you suggest to get page one ranking??"

So I wanted to explain my opinons on this in more detail.

What I'm saying, is that if you have a brand new website - personally, in my opinion (other opinions exist, and I'm not saying I'm right & they're wrong) it is better to not focus on backlinking initially, and instead focus on keyword research, and increasing the value of your website with content & features - and good on page SEO. [EDIT. what I meant to say here was with MOST new websites, not all. It does depend on the Niche. There are competitive area's where there is just no low hanging fruit left to pick.]

First of all - backlinks are NOT required in order to gain page one ranking. It just depends on the competitiveness of the search terms. This isn't opinion, it's fact, you can get sites onto page one (and I don't just mean for a couple of weeks) with no backlinks. I do it all the time. It's just a case of selecting the right search terms.

If you have a new site & you're a home based business, a one person web marketer with little or no marketing budget, then - in my opinion - you should be starting off going for less competitive search terms, rather than starting off going after terms you need to gain backlinks for.

So if you're starting a brand new website, and you're going for fairly competitive search terms - yes, you will need backlinks. BUT, as your site age is zero, it's going to take you quite some time to gain page one ranking for competitive terms anyway - you may get the initial new site boost which can happen with new sites for a few weeks, but then you'll usually find the site drops way down within a couple of weeks - and it's very difficult to gain page one ranking then because of competition.

Do an exact match search in Google (in quote marks) and see how many competitiors there are for the term, then use the SEO quake firefox plugin or the SEO for Firefox plugin, and look at what the PR and backlink numbers are for those on page one - this gives you an idea of what the competition is. If you have a brand new site, and you're competing against 10,000, and the average PR on page one is 4, and the average backlinks number is 3,000 - 5,000 - and the average site age is 4 years, then obviously you're going to have a job & a half getting that site onto page one for that term.

So - I'm NOT saying that you should never do any backlinking - but what I'm suggesting is that when you have a new site - your focus initially should be on increasing the value of the site with content & features, and you focus very hard on keyword research, to find terms which you CAN rank on page one for, with little or no backlinking.

The trick is to start off spending time doing keyword research, to find the gems in your niche, those terms which have some traffic but very little competion. So rather than focusing on 3-5 competitive search terms, for example, start off focusing on 30 - 50 more long-tail lesser competitive terms, that you stand a chance of getting onto page one for with content & onpage SEO alone.

Having a keyword rich domain is a real plus for this, it's always easier to get on page one for terms which are contained in the domain. Then, by focusing on increasing the value of your content & features, you're creating linkbait, which means that people will naturally link to you - and when they do this, it tends to be very well matched topically, these kinds of backlinks look more natural to Google & are worth far more than manually gathered backlinks.

If you do it the way I've described here, and then start to look at some offpage - then first of all you'll be getting some decent traffic straight away, and you'll be creating a website which looks good to Google. You really can do more harm than good going all guns blazing backlinking with a brand new website.

Then when you do start doing some backlinking - I would still be careful on what you spend your time on. If you're learning about SEO from eBooks & so on - just keep in mind that this info is usually a couple of years out of date, things change FAST in SEO.

The problem is that people think it's all about backlinks, so they start off going after search terms which are way out of their league with a new site, and they end up not getting any real traffic for quite a long time. Whereas if they'd have focussed on researching the right keywords to focus on initially, they would have started getting some return straight away, and in time they could have then started to turn their attention to more competitive terms.

Cheers

Kev
#backlinking #backlinks #content #google #page #ranking #required #seo
  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Great post!

      Best part is here:



      Long-tails are almost always easier to rank in Google SERPs.
      Thanks

      Agreed.

      It does depend on the niche as to whether long tails get any traffic - but this is what keyword research is for. Personally I'd way prefer to do it this way & start getting some nice targeted longtail traffic from pretty much day one, than spend forever trying to get some traffic from more competitive terms.

      Cheers

      Kev
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    • Profile picture of the author zenji
      Ohh boy you just ezposed my number one secret to SEO on baby sites! ...ahh well, it works like a charm for me and I hope you all try this.


      Dennis
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Great post!

      Best part is here:



      Long-tails are almost always easier to rank in Google SERPs.
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgeKuipers
    KevL, you are right in the main thesis for new sites - they do not need backlinking for first 3-6 months. Simply because it is always risky to put backlinks to new sites (they are new, unknown, why they should receive natural links - google's suspision).

    Mind you, in high moneyflow niches (travel, explicit, etc) you will not be able to find any undercovered keyword phrase. People are mining for years there, and it is empty Clondijk now. So in those niches you must do backlinking after those 3-6 months of tapped sandboxing to get any little success.

    PS. And your general thoughts on keyword research are valid and valueable.
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    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Originally Posted by GeorgeKuipers View Post

      KevL, you are right in the main thesis for new sites - they do not need backlinking for first 3-6 months. Simply because it is always risky to put backlinks to new sites (they are new, unknown, why they should receive natural links - google's suspision).

      Mind you, in high moneyflow niches (travel, explicit, etc) you will not be able to find any undercovered keyword phrase. People are mining for years there, and it is empty Clondijk now. So in those niches you must do backlinking after those 3-6 months of tapped sandboxing to get any little success.

      PS. And your general thoughts on keyword research are valid and valueable.
      Yes I agree, it does depend on the niche - it would be difficult in the adult niche for example yeah.

      Thanks

      Kev
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Callen
    I'm just kind of curious when you say you do it all the time, how much traffic are you getting from the keywords?
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    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Originally Posted by Brad Callen View Post

      I'm just kind of curious when you say you do it all the time, how much traffic are you getting from the keywords?
      Hi Brad

      Not big numbers of traffic from individual keywords, admittedly. Occasionally though I'll find a brilliant search term which pulls in some pretty decent traffic, considering the ease of the page one ranking for that search term - but most of the time it's pretty small numbers per keyword. Obviously the more high volume terms will usually be more competitive, so they won't be low hanging fruit.

      It really depends on the Niche too I think, i've done this with one niche for a client in which the site has gained around a thousand enquiries for high ticket (£10,000 & up) machinery, over the past 18 months, and this is all with page one rankings which were gained within a matter of a couple of weeks, with no backlinking.

      I'm not saying no backlinking is required ever - but most people are overly focused on backlinking, and with brand new sites I think the initial focus should be on increasing & improving content & features, and on keyword research & on page SEO - and once that's working to bring in some traffic, then would be a good time to start working on backlinking - rather than going all guns blazing on backlinking right from the off.

      Cheers

      Kev
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  • Profile picture of the author dzinerfusion
    Thanks for the advice. Yea, I noticed some of sites already rank in page 1 with little backlinking work. Of course, the key is the niche. Backlinks still play a huge part in the formula, but I think quality content and a decent domain will help improve your rank as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author sweetblue
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    • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
      Yup - i tell all my associates with brick n morter business - to just go shut it down and pick a niche that easier to rank.

      Have a going out of business sale at your 100 yr old hydraulic lift manufacturing company and go start up a business thats easier to rank for ... like oooohhhh say .... "How To Cure Genital Herpes With Homeopathy"

      Look ma ... Im on page one and had 3 whole clicks this quarter ... See Ma - I dont need to mess with those evil, putrid backlink things. My content is off the chain!
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      • Profile picture of the author yukon
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        • Profile picture of the author 4morereferrals
          Originally Posted by yukon View Post

          Well at least all your post are consistent! :rolleyes:

          Can we here about the thousands of backlinks everyone should have?

          Nahh - not thousands- Id just refer them to Yukon jIM's killer list of the mythical UNICORN backlinks - you know the ones ... the ones where just one of these magical "high PR" links is equal to "2,147" of those other lowly "spammy" ones.

          I guess maybe my mates in the real world can get prospects into their funnel chasing those low hanging fruit long tails - and convert them into buyers of their hard goods after a few free trials of Puppy Training reports? Cuz i mean ... forklift buyers love puppies too right?

          ... or the DIY Forklift Repair Manifesto - value priced at $27 - today only on Clickbank ....

          Thanks for playing Yukon - its always a pleasure ...

          Im off to go register DIYForkliftRepairManifestoHQ.info
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      • Profile picture of the author KevL
        Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

        Yup - i tell all my associates with brick n morter business - to just go shut it down and pick a niche that easier to rank.

        Have a going out of business sale at your 100 yr old hydraulic lift manufacturing company and go start up a business thats easier to rank for ... like oooohhhh say .... "How To Cure Genital Herpes With Homeopathy"

        Look ma ... Im on page one and had 3 whole clicks this quarter ... See Ma - I dont need to mess with those evil, putrid backlink things. My content is off the chain!
        Funny but you're missing the point.

        I'm suggesting that people with new websites start off focusing on increasing the value of their website, by improving the quality & quantity of content & features - and that they focus initially on lesser competitive search terms in the niche - search terms within their niche that they stand a chance of ranking for within a short time frame, and that they raise their sites to more competitive search terms in the future. I'm not saying people should change their niche.

        Yes - I agree that there are certain niches & businesses where this just isn't possible, but it is possible for most businesses. I would certainly not class hydraulic lift manufacturing companies as the kind of businesses who may struggle with this by the way, I was thinking more along the lines of ultra competitive niches - if you think that hydraulic lift manufacturing is an uber competitive niche, then I can see why you would think what I'm saying has no mileage.

        What I'm finding a lot of people are doing at the moment, is creating skeleton websites with very little content, or just a couple of squeeze pages or whatever - spending very little time on keyword research, and just jumping onto the most obvious search terms that every man & his dog are focusing on - and concentrating on offpage activities straight away.

        This is a formula for very shaky results for quite some time - depending on the competitiveness of the terms in question.

        What I am suggesting - is that it's far more productive to firstly focus on improving the quality & quantity of content, focusing on lesser competitive search terms within the niche initially, then you're creating a website which is likely to gain some good backlinks naturally due to the quality of the content / features & which is likely to gain some traffice straight away - so you can start enjoying a return straight away, and over time you can then start to focus on more competitive terms within the niche.

        I'm not saying that people should shut down & pick a new niche - in fact, if your associates have bricks & mortar businesses, what I'm suggesting here is usualy more appropriate for people with bricks & mortar businesses than it is for people selling info products.

        And I'm not saying backlinks are evil - what I am saying is that with a brand new website with zero site age, it doesn't matter how much backlinking you do, it's going to be tough to rank page one for competitive terms any time soon, so it would make sense to put your first efforts into activities which are guaranteed to add a real tangible value to your website - i.e. creating great original & valuable content & features. Then as things progress, you can start focussing more on offpage.

        You don't have to agree with me - this is my opinion, based on my own experience. If you think that people shouldn't start off putting their main focus into increasing the value of their website, and that they should initially focus on easier terms within their niche & raise their sights in the future - and you think think that they would be better off focusing on competitive terms & backlinking from day 1, then you're of course entitled to that opinion.

        Cheers

        Kev
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Originally Posted by 4morereferrals View Post

      Nahh - not thousands- Id just refer them to Yukon jIM's killer list of the mythical UNICORN backlinks - you know the ones ... the ones where just one of these magical "high PR" links is equal to "2,147" of those other lowly "spammy" ones.

      I guess maybe my mates in the real world can get prospects into their funnel chasing those low hanging fruit long tails - and convert them into buyers of their hard goods after a few free trials of Puppy Training reports? Cuz i mean ... forklift buyers love puppies too right?

      ... or the DIY Forklift Repair Manifesto - value priced at $27 - today only on Clickbank ....

      Thanks for playing Yukon - its always a pleasure ...

      Im off to go register DIYForkliftRepairManifestoHQ.info
      Sheesh - someone got up on the sarcastic side of the bed today!!!
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      • Profile picture of the author dburk
        Hi KevL,

        Nice post!

        I agree with much of what you said, especially that a brand new website needs to build content that merits high rankings. However, you can have a website that doesn't have a large amount of content.

        You need lots of good content, but the content doesn't need to all be on your website. By placing great content all over the web and linking it all to your offer page can be just as effective as placing it all on your own website, with the added benefit of promoting your own pages.

        So yes, you need lots of great content, it just doesn't need to all be on your own website. Search engines see your page as part of a web, and that web is not necessarily just your own website, it includes all the pages that you link to as well as all the pages that link to yours. Don't just build your website, build your web, using lots of great content.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dellco
    Fully agree with the OP.
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  • Profile picture of the author terryd
    It's easy to rank number one for crappy no traffic terms (or minimal traffic) but if you are looking at even slightly competitive niches you NEED backlinks or you simply will not rank for that term no matter how good your keyword research is or how good your on page SEO is.

    You can improve on all the content and features you want for your site but if your not in that 1st page of Google then it doesn't matter how good it is cause you aint getting any traffic anyway.....
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    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Originally Posted by terryd View Post

      It's easy to rank number one for crappy no traffic terms (or minimal traffic) but if you are looking at even slightly competitive niches you NEED backlinks or you simply will not rank for that term no matter how good your keyword research is or how good your on page SEO is.

      You can improve on all the content and features you want for your site but if your not in that 1st page of Google then it doesn't matter how good it is cause you aint getting any traffic anyway.....
      Again, the point is being missed....

      What I'm suggesting is that people with new sites should focus on initially creating content, creating something of value - and focus initially on lesser competitive search terms that they stand any chance of ranking on page one for.

      but if you are looking at even slightly competitive niches you NEED backlinks or you simply will not rank for that term no matter how good your keyword research is or how good your on page SEO is.
      If you're talking about a competitive niche - or competitive terms within a niche, then how do you expect a brand new website with zero site age, to rank for competitive terms any time soon, when you're competing with sites which are full of original content, and which have years or site age, and have been backlinking for years?

      With or without focusing on backlinking from day one - it's still going to be a real challenge to get anywhere near a ranking which will bring converting traffic, for competitive search terms, with a new site.

      So - what I'm suggesting, is that the initial focus should be on creating value, on creating a site which people will stay on, and which people will come back to, which people willl want to link to as the content / features are good.

      The whole point of Google is to allow value to rise - this is what all their systems are about, they want the best value to searchers to rise to the top.

      So what i'm suggesting is that instead of trying to fake that value by throwing up a site of little value & then doing as much backlinking as possible - that people actually focus on adding value, and creating websites which ARE amongst the most valuable in the niche because of the content & features - and that if you do this, and do your keyword research right so you're picking up some low hanging fruit terms right from the off, you're likely to have a much better time of it.

      If you do it this way, you will start getting some converting traffic virtuially straight away - yes it may only be a trickle initially, coming from long tail terms geographic specific terms & so on - but if you do it the other way, you'll also only get a trickle of traffic initially BUT the big difference is that if you do it the other way, this trickle of traffic will be coming from page 3,4,5,6, rankings & so on for competitive terms - and this traffic is not converting traffic.

      Don't get me wrong - I am not saying you don't need backlinks, of course!

      I'm saying that I believe it's better to focus to begin with on increasing the value of your website, rather than spending all your time initially backlinking.

      If you do this, you will pick up some backlinks naturally as the best linkbait is value - if you're offering great value with your content & fatures than people will link to you. And, of course, I'm not saying don't get any backlinks, I'm saying that I think it's futile to initially focus on backlinking to the degree that many seem to suggest.

      Once you have a website which represents real value, then I would focus more on offpage, but by this time you should already be getting converting traffic, and it will be a case of ramping it up by enabling your site to rank for more competitive terms.

      Thanks

      Kev
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        If you're talking about a competitive niche - or competitive terms within a niche, then how do you expect a brand new website with zero site age, to rank for competitive terms any time soon, when you're competing with sites which are full of original content, and which have years or site age, and have been backlinking for years?
        By an aged domain, with some PR/backlinks, perhaps a DMOZ link, slam the hell out if with xrumer, and you're off. It actually works pretty dang well, and quickly.
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        • Profile picture of the author KevL
          Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

          By an aged domain, with some PR/backlinks, perhaps a DMOZ link, slam the hell out if with xrumer, and you're off. It actually works pretty dang well, and quickly.

          OK - so you buy the aged domain, slam the hell out of it with Xrumer - aren't you missing the part where you build a site, and create something that is even worth trying to get ranked highly on Google?....

          This is one of the main points I'm trying to make - that people should initially focus on the value of their website - here again you appear to be skipping the fact that a site is required. What, you're just going to buy a domain & then start backlinking??

          Thanks

          Kev
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

          By an aged domain, with some PR/backlinks, perhaps a DMOZ link, slam the hell out if with xrumer, and you're off. It actually works pretty dang well, and quickly.
          Aren't you on the wrong board with that spamming xrumer stuff.
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      • Profile picture of the author terryd
        Originally Posted by KevL View Post


        What I'm suggesting is that people with new sites should focus on initially creating content, creating something of value - and focus initially on lesser competitive search terms that they stand any chance of ranking on page one for.
        I totally agree but you can have all the value and content you want but if you don't have backlinks then you are not going to rank period.....you could be a world renown expert on a certain topic and have a website but just because your are world renown doesn't mean you are going to rank for that topic, it's only when you start getting backlinks and that is why they are so important!

        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        If you're talking about a competitive niche - or competitive terms within a niche, then how do you expect a brand new website with zero site age, to rank for competitive terms any time soon, when you're competing with sites which are full of original content, and which have years or site age, and have been backlinking for years?
        Well that totally depends on what you call a competitive niche and what I call a competitive niche doesn't it but I can easily get a new site that receives 4000 (hardly mind blowing traffic I know) plus visitors a month to the first page of Google in around a week without any problems or dramas and that's going up against domains that have 10 years plus age and thousands of backlinks to the main domain.

        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        With or without focusing on backlinking from day one - it's still going to be a real challenge to get anywhere near a ranking which will bring converting traffic, for competitive search terms, with a new site.
        Without backlinking you won't ....... with backlinking you have a chance....


        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        So - what I'm suggesting, is that the initial focus should be on creating value, on creating a site which people will stay on, and which people will come back to, which people willl want to link to as the content / features are good.
        In the end I think the majority would like a site like that but if I want to get a site up and making money in as short of time as possible it's just good content and backlinking....

        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        The whole point of Google is to allow value to rise - this is what all their systems are about, they want the best value to searchers to rise to the top.
        Sorry but I think you are delusional if you think you know what Google want, I bet there are millions of awesome websites floating around in cyberspace that would put alot of first page google listed sites to shame but because they don't have the backlinks to them they stay floating around in cyberspace, hell, check out some of the mainstream affiliate products on the first page of Google and tell me they haven't been blog spammed and Xrummered to death, would they be the so called "value" sites that rise to the top?

        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        So what i'm suggesting is that instead of trying to fake that value by throwing up a site of little value & then doing as much backlinking as possible - that people actually focus on adding value, and creating websites which ARE amongst the most valuable in the niche because of the content & features - and that if you do this, and do your keyword research right so you're picking up some low hanging fruit terms right from the off, you're likely to have a much better time of it.
        That's a reasonable way to go about it as well, I can't disagree with that but personally I would put up a half decent site, start backlinking the hell out of it and and more content as I go, that way the money start rolling in quicker .

        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        If you do it this way, you will start getting some converting traffic virtuially straight away - yes it may only be a trickle initially, coming from long tail terms geographic specific terms & so on - but if you do it the other way, you'll also only get a trickle of traffic initially BUT the big difference is that if you do it the other way, this trickle of traffic will be coming from page 3,4,5,6, rankings & so on for competitive terms - and this traffic is not converting traffic.
        I just totally disagree with the above, I'm not sure why you think traffic from anything beyond page 2 is non converting traffic?

        Originally Posted by KevL View Post

        Don't get me wrong - I am not saying you don't need backlinks, of course!

        I'm saying that I believe it's better to focus to begin with on increasing the value of your website, rather than spending all your time initially backlinking.

        If you do this, you will pick up some backlinks naturally as the best linkbait is value - if you're offering great value with your content & fatures than people will link to you. And, of course, I'm not saying don't get any backlinks, I'm saying that I think it's futile to initially focus on backlinking to the degree that many seem to suggest.

        Once you have a website which represents real value, then I would focus more on offpage, but by this time you should already be getting converting traffic, and it will be a case of ramping it up by enabling your site to rank for more competitive terms.
        I think that we both have the same target in mind but that we just go about it in different ways, I personally think that by putting more emphasis on backlinks that I would be able to get to the first page of Google quicker than you ;-)
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        • Profile picture of the author KevL
          Originally Posted by terryd View Post

          I totally agree but you can have all the value and content you want but if you don't have backlinks then you are not going to rank period.....you could be a world renown expert on a certain topic and have a website but just because your are world renown doesn't mean you are going to rank for that topic, it's only when you start getting backlinks and that is why they are so important!
          This is the very point of my post. This is something I've seen repeated a lot - and it's just plain wrong. "if you don't have backlinks then you are not going to rank period....." This just isn't the case. You WILL rank without backlinks, always. But it depends on the competition on where you will rank. In a competitive niche you may rank on page 100 - and yes, offpage will then be required as part of the strategy to improve ranking - BUT for low competition terms, you CAN get a page one ranking with no backlinks, at all.

          Yes - in a competitive niche, you're right, if you don't have backlinks you won't rank page one (you'll rank, but it won't be page one), but to just say that you cannot rank without backlinks, is wrong - of course you can.

          Also - I'm saying that the website itself is more important than the backlinks, yes you need backlinks - but the quality & quantity of the content matters more, especially if you want visitors to actually convert rather than just bounce off.

          I have lots of sites ranked, (for terms which get traffic by the way) - some with absolutely ZERO backlinks. It's about keyword research. Yes - of course, in general the terms you can get ranked on page one without backlinks, are less competitive & less volume, but they're also rediculously easy to rank for - so why not!?


          Well that totally depends on what you call a competitive niche and what I call a competitive niche doesn't it
          No it doesn't depend on what you call a competitive niche or what I call a competitive niche, at all - it depends on how many competitors there are for the exact match term, and whether they have any backlinks. Really simple.

          but I can easily get a new site that receives 4000 (hardly mind blowing traffic I know) plus visitors a month to the first page of Google in around a week without any problems or dramas and that's going up against domains that have 10 years plus age and thousands of backlinks to the main domain.
          I'm not sure what you're saying - you can get a new site that receives 4k visits per month to page one? Are you saying you can get a brand new site to page one in a week for a term which has a search volume of 4k? If so - you're doing exactlty what I'm saying here... because within a week, the vast magority of the backlinking you've done won't have even had an effect......

          Sorry but I think you are delusional if you think you know what Google want
          Now I'm confused - you've just stated that you know how to get a website ranked on page one for a term with 4,000 searches per month (I think that's what you were saying anyway) within a week - which would imply that you know what they want, in that case, and then you're saying that I'm delusional if I think I know what Google want.......

          It's not hard to know what Google want - just go to the Matt Cutts blog, or use some common sence, they want the best value, and most relevent results for their searchers, so they keep their market share. They want the cream to rise, and the crap to drop. Not hard to work that out.

          I just totally disagree with the above, I'm not sure why you think traffic from anything beyond page 2 is non converting traffic?
          From experience. the further down the traffic comes from, the less likeley it is to convert.


          I think that we both have the same target in mind but that we just go about it in different ways, I personally think that by putting more emphasis on backlinks that I would be able to get to the first page of Google quicker than you ;-)
          If you read what I said - I wasn't saying you never need to backlink, and I wasn't saying I don't focus on any offpage at all - I was saying that I would advise that people start off focusing on developing their websites, increasing their value by creating more & better content & features, and on keyword research - and that if they do it this way, rather than starting off on offpage from day one, they'll have better, faster results.

          Thanks

          Kev
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            This is the very point of my post. This is something I've seen repeated a lot - and it's just plain wrong. "if you don't have backlinks then you are not going to rank period....." This just isn't the case. You WILL rank without backlinks, always. But it depends on the competition on where you will rank. In a competitive niche you may rank on page 100
            I get your point but there I will have to disagree. Look at some results. Google does not show results on page 100 for a lot of terms. there are times without backlinks you are not going to show and what good does it do anyway. You get next to no traffic past page two.

            Overall your points have merit. Don't let the backlink Banditos :p tell you otherwise but to be fair to both sides the best thing is not to go after getting on page one without backlinks. You talk about domain name match. Are you really going to want to set up domains for 50 searches a month? Not practical. Better to look in the low thousands or even a few 500s plus. They are out there in a lot of niches. Then you can build moderate backlinks and get on page one. So I hear you but practically i'd meet in the middle of the two positions.
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            • Profile picture of the author KevL
              Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

              I get your point but there I will have to disagree. Look at some results. Google does not show results on page 100 for a lot of terms. there are times without backlinks you are not going to show and what good does it do anyway. You get next to no traffic past page two.

              Overall your points have merit. Don't let the backlink Banditos :p tell you otherwise but to be fair to both sides the best thing is not to go after getting on page one without backlinks. You talk about domain name match. Are you really going to want to set up domains for 50 searches a month? Not practical. Better to look in the low thousands or even a few 500s plus. They are out there in a lot of niches. Then you can build moderate backlinks and get on page one. So I hear you but practically i'd meet in the middle of the two positions.
              Thanks

              The point I was making ref page 100, was that you will usually "rank" for a search term with no backlinks, but obviously what's important is where you'll rank - and that you can rank page one for low competition terms.

              Once again - I'm not saying that backlinking isn't required at all, the post title is "Backlinking Not Required for Page 1 Ranking" and many people are replying to this without fully reading & understanding my post. What I meant by the post title is that the sweeping statements people tend to make that "if you want page one you need loads of backlinks" isn't correct - it depends on the competitiveness of the search term.

              My main point, is that I believe that when people are starting with a new site, they should focus first on creating value - focus second on creating backlinks.

              I speak to people all the time who come to me asking for my services, and the majority of people in the WM arena, are not promoting great sites.

              I am not saying you never need to do any backlinking - I am saying that people should focus first on their websites - and second on backlinking.

              Google want the cream to rise & the crap to fall, you can either fake that your site is the cream, by focusing on backlinking straight away - OR you can actually make your site the cream, by first focusing on the development of your site, content & features. And then focus on offpage second.

              If you fake it - you may get results, but I'm adamant that they are usually short lived in comparison.

              These are my opinions, from my experience - other opinions exist & I'm not stating that I'm right & they're wrong. I've tried both methods, and I know which I'll stick to.

              Cheers

              Kev
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              SEO Kev
              Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
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          • Profile picture of the author terryd
            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            This is the very point of my post. This is something I've seen repeated a lot - and it's just plain wrong. "if you don't have backlinks then you are not going to rank period....." This just isn't the case. You WILL rank without backlinks, always. But it depends on the competition on where you will rank. In a competitive niche you may rank on page 100 - and yes, offpage will then be required as part of the strategy to improve ranking - BUT for low competition terms, you CAN get a page one ranking with no backlinks, at all.

            Yes - in a competitive niche, you're right, if you don't have backlinks you won't rank page one (you'll rank, but it won't be page one), but to just say that you cannot rank without backlinks, is wrong - of course you can.
            That's really poor.....yes, if I don't do any backlinking I can "rank" at number 456 215 on Google, which to you is a so called "ranking", to me getting on page 1 of Google is ranking (preferably one of the top 3 spots), big difference and kind of obvious to me anyway....

            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            Also - I'm saying that the website itself is more important than the backlinks, yes you need backlinks - but the quality & quantity of the content matters more, especially if you want visitors to actually convert rather than just bounce off.
            Can you get a site to rank (not your ranking definition but my definition) by having good quality content and no backlinks.....NO!!.......(and don't even think of long tail keyword traffic phrase that has one visitor per month!) can I have crappy barely literate content that ranks on Google with backlinks......Absoutely!!

            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            I have lots of sites ranked, (for terms which get traffic by the way) - some with absolutely ZERO backlinks. It's about keyword research. Yes - of course, in general the terms you can get ranked on page one without backlinks, are less competitive & less volume, but they're also rediculously easy to rank for - so why not!?
            You neglect to mention how much traffic these no backlinked keywords get? I've got stacks of sites which rank and get long tail traffic....to me they aren't even worth worrying about but are just part of the parcel, if I've done my keyword research right then the term I targeting is my only concern, any other long tail traffic I receive is just a bonus.


            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            No it doesn't depend on what you call a competitive niche or what I call a competitive niche, at all - it depends on how many competitors there are for the exact match term, and whether they have any backlinks. Really simple.
            Yes it does matter, while you may be put off with the top ten listings having thousands of indexed pages and high PR sites as well as multiple backlinks to the page it may not put me off because I know what I can do and I know I can get backlinks quickly which helps me rank.



            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            I'm not sure what you're saying - you can get a new site that receives 4k visits per month to page one? Are you saying you can get a brand new site to page one in a week for a term which has a search volume of 4k? If so - you're doing exactlty what I'm saying here... because within a week, the vast magority of the backlinking you've done won't have even had an effect......
            I can get a site up and configured (wordpress) with good content in about 2 hours, start the rss feed as soon as it is completed, start backlinking the next day (couple hundred backlinks......2 hours).....start getting those backlinks noticed on the 3rd day, by the 4th day some of the links are already indexed in Google and are definitely showing on Yahoo......so it's not what your saying....it's because of what I'm saying....



            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            Now I'm confused - you've just stated that you know how to get a website ranked on page one for a term with 4,000 searches per month (I think that's what you were saying anyway) within a week - which would imply that you know what they want, in that case, and then you're saying that I'm delusional if I think I know what Google want.......
            If I knew exactly what Google wanted I wouldn't be here debating with you.....I would be in Samoa lying on the beach and eating food, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of what they prefer and have gained an insight on how that can be manipulated....

            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            It's not hard to know what Google want - just go to the Matt Cutts blog, or use some common sence, they want the best value, and most relevent results for their searchers, so they keep their market share. They want the cream to rise, and the crap to drop. Not hard to work that out.
            If you took a vote here on who thinks what Matt Cutts says is gospel or not I think it would probably run 50/50, some people think he overstates things while on other matters he understates things, personally I think he's pretty much on the ball but if Google want the best of everything then why are there so many crappy sites ranking well when they've been blog spammed and Xrummered to death....answer that?



            Originally Posted by KevL View Post

            If you read what I said - I wasn't saying you never need to backlink, and I wasn't saying I don't focus on any off page at all - I was saying that I would advise that people start off focusing on developing their websites, increasing their value by creating more & better content & features, and on keyword research - and that if they do it this way, rather than starting off on offpage from day one, they'll have better, faster results.
            Again I disagree, only in the sense that you now acknowledge that you need backlinks to rank (my definition not yours) in Google but I still think if we started a site at the same time and you concentrated on developing your website while I concentrated on getting it out there, getting backlinks and then adding content I'll start making money way faster than you.
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            • Profile picture of the author KevL
              Originally Posted by terryd View Post

              That's really poor.....yes, if I don't do any backlinking I can "rank" at number 456 215 on Google, which to you is a so called "ranking", to me getting on page 1 of Google is ranking (preferably one of the top 3 spots), big difference and kind of obvious to me anyway....
              Yes that may be really poor - but you're the one who made the point!!!? :rolleyes:

              I was merely clarifying the point by saying you can "rank" but it's not important THAT you rank, it's important WHERE you rank - and that you can rank on page one without backlinks.

              You said in your previous post:
              if you don't have backlinks then you are not going to rank period.....you could be a world renown expert on a certain topic and have a website but just because your are world renown doesn't mean you are going to rank for that topic, it's only when you start getting backlinks and that is why they are so important!
              The point I was making that the sweeping statement that you made, and that others have made, that you "Can't rank without backlinks" is completely wrong. You can rank without backlinks. Yes - of course, as I said, you're not going to rank for competitive search terms without backlinks.


              Can you get a site to rank (not your ranking definition but my definition) by having good quality content and no backlinks.....NO!!.......(and don't even think of long tail keyword traffic phrase that has one visitor per month!) can I have crappy barely literate content that ranks on Google with backlinks......Absoutely!!
              What do you mean, not my ranking definition but yours?? You didn't even define ranking, you said that a site can't "rank" without backlinks, and I clarified that point by saying that you can "rank" for any term, but what is important is where you rank, i.e if you're on page 5, you are still "ranking"

              So if we are talking about page one ranking (and if that's what you mean, then why not say that??) then yes, I can get a site to rank with good quality content & no features - for terms which have more than one visitor per month......

              Can I get a site to rank page one for a mid to high competition term with no backlinks? No, of course not.

              I'll go back to my main point once again.........

              I am saying, that I think people who're getting into promoting sites via organic Google, would be better advised to start off first focusing on creating great sites, focusing on original & sticky content & features - and THEN move on to offpage.

              AND - I think that people who have brand new sites, with zero site age, they would be better focussing on lesser competitive search terms within their niche initially, and move on to the more competitive terms in time.

              The opposite of this is what you & some others appear to be reccomending, which is to just start a site, don't bother on building a great site - just build any old site (in fact some seem to think you can just buy an aged domain & then start backlinking) focus on the high volume terms - and wham, the money rolls in.

              If only!!!!

              Again I disagree, only in the sense that you now acknowledge that you need backlinks to rank (my definition not yours) in Google but I still think if we started a site at the same time and you concentrated on developing your website while I concentrated on getting it out there, getting backlinks and then adding content I'll start making money way faster than you.
              Firstly, you were the one who was saying you can't "Rank" I was clarifying that point. If you read my op title, it says "Page one ranking" I was clear in what I was talking about - then you came along saying "you can't rank without backlinks" and I was merely clarifying the point, that you can "rank" but what matters is where you rank.

              And what do you mean by "only in the sense that you now acknowledge that you need backlinks to rank (my definition not yours) in Google"?

              To "RANK" means nothing unless you add a position.... I'm talking about "to rank on page one" and I have not acknowledged that you need backlinks to rank on page one - why don't you actually read a post & be sure you understand it before replying? What I said, is that you CAN get a page one ranking with no backlinks - and I ackowledge (as I did much earlier in this thread before you added to it) that you can't rank page one for competitive search terms with no backlinks.


              I can get a site up and configured (wordpress) with good content in about 2 hours, start the rss feed as soon as it is completed, start backlinking the next day (couple hundred backlinks......2 hours).....start getting those backlinks noticed on the 3rd day, by the 4th day some of the links are already indexed in Google and are definitely showing on Yahoo......so it's not what your saying....it's because of what I'm saying....
              So, you're talking about auto content, 100% dupe, (maybe with a WP plugin to try to dupe Google into believing it's original content?) ploughing the backlinks from day one, and within 4 days you're enjoying page one rankings as a result of your backlinking?

              The methods you're using may well work (although I very much doubt that they're working as well as you think & as fast as you think) but the medthods you're talking about, ref creating completely duplicate content sites & starting on backlinking straioght away - will be temporary. Because, basically, it's SE spamming.

              By Google's definition, if you create a site full of duplicate content, and then use the methods you've just said, you're spamming. As Mat Cutts would say "Where's the value add?"

              And if you spam - you may get results, but they'll usually be temporary.

              I'm not saying that your methods are wrong - merely that I prefer a different method.

              You're talking about creating a site in a couple of hours & then faking it's value with backlinking.

              I'm talking about ACTUALLY creating value...

              They're two completely different methods. Yes, my method means more hard work initially I suppose, and in some cases I do agree that your method may bring better traffic for a temporary period of time, but it'a temporary. If I start a site, I want to benefit from it for years, not weeks or months.

              Anyway - once again, what you do is completely up to you - I would still always recommend that people who're new to SEO, focus FIRST on creating a site which is actually adding value to the web, and SECOND focus on offpage.

              If I knew exactly what Google wanted I wouldn't be here debating with you.....I would be in Samoa lying on the beach and eating food, but I think I have a pretty good understanding of what they prefer and have gained an insight on how that can be manipulated....
              Once again, it's not hard, they're always going on about it - they want value, they want their searchers to find the most value & the most relevent results. They DON'T want pages of 100% duplicate content & some adsense ads, which add absolutely zero value to the web & just waste space. If you've ever been to a Googe conference or spent any time on MC's blog, then you would know very well what they want.

              Why would you be lying on a beach by knowing what they want? To be lying on the beach in Samoa, you would need to have found a way to GIVE Google what they want. knowing is one thing, but doing is where the results are. In a way you have found a way to give Google what they want, but it's a way to pretend that you're giving Google what they want, which will give you results temporarily. And - I have also found a way to give Google what they want but it takes time & effort, so neither of us - I fear - are going to be lying on that beach, without significant effort.

              Again, I'm not saying your method is wrong, they're just different methods.

              In effect, you & I are standing side by side in a plate spinning contest, I'm using bigger plates which take longer to spin but which stay spinning for longer, you're spinning plates which take you far less effort to get going but which fall off quicker.

              but my point is - I can walk away from my plates after a while, and go lie down on that beach while they keep spinning, and watch you continually running about like a blue arsed fly spinning more & more plates.... and the minute you walk away from your plates - SMASH!!!
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              • Profile picture of the author terryd
                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                Yes that may be really poor - but you're the one who made the point!!!? :rolleyes:

                I was merely clarifying the point by saying you can "rank" but it's not important THAT you rank, it's important WHERE you rank - and that you can rank on page one without backlinks.
                Well perhaps your thread topic should have read "Backlinking Not Required for Page 1 Ranking.......when chasing an obscure 5 phrase word that gets barely any traffic".............then I would have never replied but you didn't did you??



                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                What do you mean, not my ranking definition but yours?? You didn't even define ranking, you said that a site can't "rank" without backlinks, and I clarified that point by saying that you can "rank" for any term, but what is important is where you rank, i.e if you're on page 5, you are still "ranking"

                So if we are talking about page one ranking (and if that's what you mean, then why not say that??) then yes, I can get a site to rank with good quality content & no features - for terms which have more than one visitor per month......
                Obviously you didn't read my post above clearly then because I have already defined as "ranking"

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                Can I get a site to rank page one for a mid to high competition term with no backlinks? No, of course not.

                I'll go back to my main point once again.........
                Not what the thread topic specifies does it??

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                I am saying, that I think people who're getting into promoting sites via organic Google, would be better advised to start off first focusing on creating great sites, focusing on original & sticky content & features - and THEN move on to offpage.

                AND - I think that people who have brand new sites, with zero site age, they would be better focussing on lesser competitive search terms within their niche initially, and move on to the more competitive terms in time.
                Can't disagree with that one bit, but you forgot one thing........and start backlinking :-)

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                The opposite of this is what you & some others appear to be reccomending, which is to just start a site, don't bother on building a great site - just build any old site (in fact some seem to think you can just buy an aged domain & then start backlinking) focus on the high volume terms - and wham, the money rolls in.
                But it's true, it may be different to what you do but it works and as I mentioned there are probably millions of sites out in cyberspace that are absolute 100% quality and are totally informative that don't get any traffic to them, why? Because they have no backlinks!!

                Why not build an average site, backlink the hell out of it to start it ranking and getting traffic and then use the money you make to add more quality content?? Seems a no brainer to me, I get a good quality content earning for me a lot sooner than doing it your way?


                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                First of all - backlinks are NOT required in order to gain page one ranking
                This again is your quote, but you neglect to add "as long as you are happy getting 2 visitors a month" or a quite happy to 'rank' for some obscure keyword that barely gets traffic.


                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                And what do you mean by "only in the sense that you now acknowledge that you need backlinks to rank (my definition not yours) in Google"?
                As I said if you read "my" definition of what ranking is you would be clear about what I mean



                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                So, you're talking about auto content, 100% dupe, (maybe with a WP plugin to try to dupe Google into believing it's original content?) ploughing the backlinks from day one, and within 4 days you're enjoying page one rankings as a result of your backlinking?

                The methods you're using may well work (although I very much doubt that they're working as well as you think & as fast as you think) but the medthods you're talking about, ref creating completely duplicate content sites & starting on backlinking straioght away - will be temporary. Because, basically, it's SE spamming.

                By Google's definition, if you create a site full of duplicate content, and then use the methods you've just said, you're spamming. As Mat Cutts would say "Where's the value add?"

                And if you spam - you may get results, but they'll usually be temporary.

                I'm not saying that your methods are wrong - merely that I prefer a different method.

                You're talking about creating a site in a couple of hours & then faking it's value with backlinking.

                I'm talking about ACTUALLY creating value...
                Yeah great post.............but as is becoming the norm......TOTALLY WRONG!!!. I haven't got one site like the above you discribe and how you can even come to that conclusion surprises me. I've a quite a lot of sites and not one duplicate article on any of them , no autoblogs, no site templates, every one unique and I would say 3/4 of them rank on page 1 of Google for their prospective terms. I know some people do do as you have discribed and that's the path they have decided for them then good on them, it's just a path I haven't chosen to take.

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                They're two completely different methods. Yes, my method means more hard work initially I suppose, and in some cases I do agree that your method may bring better traffic for a temporary period of time, but it'a temporary. If I start a site, I want to benefit from it for years, not weeks or months.
                The rankings I get don't seem to be temporary (knock on wood), I've had sites that I started 5 years ago that are still in the same position in Google. I'm not looking for temporary rankings, I'm looking for long standing rankings.


                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                Once again, it's not hard, they're always going on about it - they want value, they want their searchers to find the most value & the most relevent results. They DON'T want pages of 100% duplicate content & some adsense ads, which add absolutely zero value to the web & just waste space. If you've ever been to a Googe conference or spent any time on MC's blog, then you would know very well what they want.
                Agree totally.....and I haven't even been to a Google conference!

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                Why would you be lying on a beach by knowing what they want? To be lying on the beach in Samoa, you would need to have found a way to GIVE Google what they want. knowing is one thing, but doing is where the results are. In a way you have found a way to give Google what they want, but it's a way to pretend that you're giving Google what they want, which will give you results temporarily. And - I have also found a way to give Google what they want but it takes time & effort, so neither of us - I fear - are going to be lying on that beach, without significant effort.
                No, I have an idea of what Google want but it's a perception that's been built up by reading other peoples experiences mixed with a little bit of Mr Cutts and stirred with a little bit that I have experienced over the years. If I knew EXACTLY what they wanted I would be able to write a paint by numbers gameplan and then dominate Google but alas, I don't think I or anybody will know EXACTLY what Google wants...


                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                In effect, you & I are standing side by side in a plate spinning contest, I'm using bigger plates which take longer to spin but which stay spinning for longer, you're spinning plates which take you far less effort to get going but which fall off quicker.

                but my point is - I can walk away from my plates after a while, and go lie down on that beach while they keep spinning, and watch you continually running about like a blue arsed fly spinning more & more plates.... and the minute you walk away from your plates - SMASH!!!
                I wouldn't put it like that (surprise,surprise) I would say that your spinning a big plate while I'm spinning a pizza dough, it starts of small but quickly gets bigger and bigger the more you spin it (then I'd eat it cause I'm always hungry) ....but anyway,so my sites start off small but because it gets ranking quicker and earning money I can add more good content and make it bigger and better.

                As you have mentioned we both have the same destination in mind but we get there by different routes I guess, nothing wrong with that!
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                • Profile picture of the author KevL
                  Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions.

                  I'm not going to bother responding to your comments this time, as we're getting no where.

                  I'm confused by some of your comments - one minute you appear to be proud to be an out & out spammer, the next minute you're not - you appear to contradict yourself quite a bit, I can't quite decide exactly what you're saying now.

                  But anyway - once again I stick to my op, I think that people should focus 1st on creating a website of real value - not on faking value by focusing on backlinking from the word go. I'm not saying never get any backlinks, and I think I made that quite clear....

                  Ref the post title - well, perhaps you should read more than just a post title before you reply?? The post title was making a statement which is true, that you do not need backlinks for page one ranking, that this is a sweeping statement & that it depends on the search term.

                  And by the way - no, I'm not talking about search terms with 5 visits per month....

                  The rankings I get don't seem to be temporary (knock on wood), I've had sites that I started 5 years ago that are still in the same position in Google. I'm not looking for temporary rankings, I'm looking for long standing rankings.
                  Sorry, but if you're talking about a site which you've done what you previously said, which is basically buy an aged domain, no mention of creating any real value & then spam the heck out of it - and you're telling me that you have a site which has had 5 years of great, page one rankings (although you don't say that, you say "same positions" which could mean page 20.....) then I think you're possibly having a little fantasy.

                  To be honest, I'm really starting to wonder why I'm even arguing with you - if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't be arguing with me - you'd be competing with me.... So, yes - you carry on telling everyone that spamming is the way & to not to listen to Matt Cutts, minimize my competition. Thanks!

                  Thanks

                  Kev


                  Originally Posted by terryd View Post

                  Well perhaps your thread topic should have read "Backlinking Not Required for Page 1 Ranking.......when chasing an obscure 5 phrase word that gets barely any traffic".............then I would have never replied but you didn't did you??





                  Obviously you didn't read my post above clearly then because I have already defined as "ranking"



                  Not what the thread topic specifies does it??



                  Can't disagree with that one bit, but you forgot one thing........and start backlinking :-)



                  But it's true, it may be different to what you do but it works and as I mentioned there are probably millions of sites out in cyberspace that are absolute 100% quality and are totally informative that don't get any traffic to them, why? Because they have no backlinks!!

                  Why not build an average site, backlink the hell out of it to start it ranking and getting traffic and then use the money you make to add more quality content?? Seems a no brainer to me, I get a good quality content earning for me a lot sooner than doing it your way?




                  This again is your quote, but you neglect to add "as long as you are happy getting 2 visitors a month" or a quite happy to 'rank' for some obscure keyword that barely gets traffic.




                  As I said if you read "my" definition of what ranking is you would be clear about what I mean





                  Yeah great post.............but as is becoming the norm......TOTALLY WRONG!!!. I haven't got one site like the above you discribe and how you can even come to that conclusion surprises me. I've a quite a lot of sites and not one duplicate article on any of them , no autoblogs, no site templates, every one unique and I would say 3/4 of them rank on page 1 of Google for their prospective terms. I know some people do do as you have discribed and that's the path they have decided for them then good on them, it's just a path I haven't chosen to take.



                  The rankings I get don't seem to be temporary (knock on wood), I've had sites that I started 5 years ago that are still in the same position in Google. I'm not looking for temporary rankings, I'm looking for long standing rankings.




                  Agree totally.....and I haven't even been to a Google conference!



                  No, I have an idea of what Google want but it's a perception that's been built up by reading other peoples experiences mixed with a little bit of Mr Cutts and stirred with a little bit that I have experienced over the years. If I knew EXACTLY what they wanted I would be able to write a paint by numbers gameplan and then dominate Google but alas, I don't think I or anybody will know EXACTLY what Google wants...




                  I wouldn't put it like that (surprise,surprise) I would say that your spinning a big plate while I'm spinning a pizza dough, it starts of small but quickly gets bigger and bigger the more you spin it (then I'd eat it cause I'm always hungry) ....but anyway,so my sites start off small but because it gets ranking quicker and earning money I can add more good content and make it bigger and better.

                  As you have mentioned we both have the same destination in mind but we get there by different routes I guess, nothing wrong with that!
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
                    Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                    Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions.

                    I'm not going to bother responding to your comments this time, as we're getting no where.

                    I'm confused by some of your comments - one minute you appear to be proud to be an out & out spammer, the next minute you're not - you appear to contradict yourself quite a bit, I can't quite decide exactly what you're saying now.

                    But anyway - once again I stick to my op, I think that people should focus 1st on creating a website of real value - not on faking value by focusing on backlinking from the word go. I'm not saying never get any backlinks, and I think I made that quite clear....

                    Ref the post title - well, perhaps you should read more than just a post title before you reply?? The post title was making a statement which is true, that you do not need backlinks for page one ranking, that this is a sweeping statement & that it depends on the search term.

                    And by the way - no, I'm not talking about search terms with 5 visits per month....



                    Sorry, but if you're talking about a site which you've done what you previously said, which is basically buy an aged domain, no mention of creating any real value & then spam the heck out of it - and you're telling me that you have a site which has had 5 years of great, page one rankings (although you don't say that, you say "same positions" which could mean page 20.....) then I think you're possibly having a little fantasy.

                    To be honest, I'm really starting to wonder why I'm even arguing with you - if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't be arguing with me - you'd be competing with me.... So, yes - you carry on telling everyone that spamming is the way & to not to listen to Matt Cutts, minimize my competition. Thanks!

                    Thanks

                    Kev
                    I don't remember reading that he spams. I remember him saying that it is much more lucrative to build your website as you build your backlinks....which is true.

                    You could spend all the time in the world on your content but unless you've got some backlinks thrown in there, it's not going to perform nearly as well as a site that focuses on backlinks from the beginning.

                    You're hell bent on converting people to your position that it's more important to focus on building your website than building backlinks which for obvious reasons, many people disagree with. The reason you are facing opposition is because in my experience, you get faster, better results with backlinks from the beginning.

                    Why can't we build our website and build backlinks at the same time? Just because you can't do both doesn't mean we can't. I can definitely build a great site while simultaneously building backlinks. I mean, it's really not that hard.

                    Make some great content and afterwards build some backlinks? Rather than make great content, make great content, make great content. It makes more sense to work on promoting your content as you make it. Not make a bunch of content and then start promotion. To me, that makes absolutely no sense. Not because I read that it doesn't make sense, because I've tried it your way and got miserable results when compared to making content and doing promotion at the same time.

                    And why would we listen to the ultimate spin doctor, Matt Cutts? Matt Cutts DOES NOT have our best interests in mind. His job is to improve Google's product...search.

                    And if spamming didn't work, then some of the biggest players both online and off wouldn't be using it to improve their rankings.

                    Are their ways to rank without spamming? Yes.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
                      Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post

                      Are their ways to rank without spamming? Yes.
                      Name one. We all know you can't (thats just a joke. I know you can)


                      I can't really say what I think because I am a good little boy and I always behave myself in accordance with the rules :rolleyes:. there are total purists that call everything spam and there are those who don't see anything as spam.

                      Like I said the answer lies in the middle for me. I'd love to say more but thats where I will leave it.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
                    Originally Posted by KevL View Post


                    To be honest, I'm really starting to wonder why I'm even arguing with you - if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't be arguing with me - you'd be competing with me....
                    LOL:rolleyes: That's what people typically say when they have no leg to stand on. The dude from "lie to me" would have a field day with that.


                    Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                    So, yes - you carry on telling everyone that spamming is the way & to not to listen to Matt Cutts, minimize my competition. Thanks!
                    Here you go with your red herrings. You should try fishing, I bet you'd be great at it.

                    Your position is that you shouldn't build backlinks early on, and we refute that position as utter nonsense:rolleyes: One can build BOTH quality content and backlinks from day 1.

                    I could argue that you look good in a pink tutu, but arguing that point has no relevance to the question at hand and in fact diverts the readers' attention elsewhere (or perhaps induces them to vomiting).

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                    • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
                      Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

                      LOL:rolleyes: That's what people typically say when they have no leg to stand on. The dude from "lie to me" would have a field day with that.




                      Here you go with your red herrings. You should try fishing, I bet you'd be great at it.

                      Your position is that you shouldn't build backlinks early on, and we refute that position as utter nonsense:rolleyes: One can build BOTH quality content and backlinks from day 1.

                      I could argue that you look good in a pink tutu, but arguing that point has no relevance to the question at hand and in fact diverts the readers' attention elsewhere (or perhaps induces them to vomiting).

                      Cal Lightman FTW.

                      There should be a way to double thanks someone...
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                  • Profile picture of the author terryd
                    Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                    Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions.

                    I'm not going to bother responding to your comments this time, as we're getting no where.

                    I'm confused by some of your comments - one minute you appear to be proud to be an out & out spammer, the next minute you're not - you appear to contradict yourself quite a bit, I can't quite decide exactly what you're saying now.
                    Excuse me but did I once every say that I spam or is it just a desperate attempt by you to throw me into the spammer heap because you don't understand what I do or refuse to give what I do any credence?



                    Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                    Ref the post title - well, perhaps you should read more than just a post title before you reply?? The post title was making a statement which is true, that you do not need backlinks for page one ranking, that this is a sweeping statement & that it depends on the search term.

                    And by the way - no, I'm not talking about search terms with 5 visits per month....
                    O.K 6 visits per month then...........and re the post title, I bet if you ever create a WSO it will be something like "Make $50 000 Easily" then you first post will be ".....over the next 10 years if you follow my methods...."



                    Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                    Sorry, but if you're talking about a site which you've done what you previously said, which is basically buy an aged domain, no mention of creating any real value & then spam the heck out of it - and you're telling me that you have a site which has had 5 years of great, page one rankings (although you don't say that, you say "same positions" which could mean page 20.....) then I think you're possibly having a little fantasy.
                    I truly wonder if you ever read any of my replies!!!. I never once said I purchased aged domains did I!!.....just like your premise about me being a spammer and creating auto blogs, none of what I do!!.....wake up and actually read will you?? I know people do as you have accused me of doing and as far as I'm concerned good for them, if it's working for them then great, it's just not a path I'm willing to venture down at this stage.....and as for my 5 year old domain it's been on page 1 hovering around the 3rd or 4th position the whole time and probably is my biggest earning site just because it gets a lot of SE traffic and it has been online for 5 years, hardly a fantasy...

                    Since you seem to have an infatuation about buying aged domains then I suggest you head towards Toms backlinking forum where you can learn more about it and other forms of backlinking, I know I check in there on a regular basis to learn....


                    Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                    To be honest, I'm really starting to wonder why I'm even arguing with you - if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't be arguing with me - you'd be competing with me.... So, yes - you carry on telling everyone that spamming is the way & to not to listen to Matt Cutts, minimize my competition. Thanks!
                    Uggg......enough with the spamming crap and wrong assumptions already!!.....I'm not really arguing, just debating the merits of the importance of backlinking and the only way I would be competing with you is if there was a keyword that you were ranking for and I wanted.

                    I wish you luck with your approach and as long as we both get to the finishing line regardless of how we get there then I guess we're doing ok.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                I was merely clarifying the point by saying you can "rank" but it's not important THAT you rank, it's important WHERE you rank - and that you can rank on page one without backlinks.
                Along those lines, Page 1 ranking means almost nothing. For most keywords, in particular the ones that you are talking about trying to rank with no backlinks, you better be top 3 if you want any sort of traffic.

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                You said in your previous post: The point I was making that the sweeping statement that you made, and that others have made, that you "Can't rank without backlinks" is completely wrong. You can rank without backlinks. Yes - of course, as I said, you're not going to rank for competitive search terms without backlinks.
                you just aren't going to rank for keywords that get any traffic either. The exception is: If you buy an aged, established domain, already with backlinks and PR, then sure, you may be able to rank a page high in Google with none, or at least very little backlinks. Also of course, if you get an EMD, you likely can rank that on page 1 without any backlinks.

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                I am saying, that I think people who're getting into promoting sites via organic Google, would be better advised to start off first focusing on creating great sites, focusing on original & sticky content & features - and THEN move on to offpage.
                In almost all cases, that just doesn't produce the be best long-term results. As terry already stated, it would be advisable to start building up the authority (via backlinks) from day one. This will help your site rank your pages much faster, much sooner. If you build lots of content with no backlinks,your site will still have no authority after 3 months. Build up the authority on with backlinks, and add content as you go.

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                The methods you're using may well work (although I very much doubt that they're working as well as you think & as fast as you think) but the medthods you're talking about, ref creating completely duplicate content sites & starting on backlinking straioght away - will be temporary. Because, basically, it's SE spamming.
                I'm not sure how this is related to anything in this thread:confused: I hope someone could shed some light on this. You don't need dupe content to get a site up quickly, you also don't need many pages of content to start ranking pages very well. I get 2 page sites to rank extremely well.



                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                They're two completely different methods. Yes, my method means more hard work initially I suppose, and in some cases I do agree that your method may bring better traffic for a temporary period of time, but it'a temporary. If I start a site, I want to benefit from it for years, not weeks or months.
                Again, going to have to disagree here. If you really want the fastest long term growth, you will build up the links from day one, and build the content as you go, along with the backlinks. You will have more authority 2 years down the road then building up content, and that's it.

                Originally Posted by KevL View Post

                If you've ever been to a Googe conference or spent any time on MC's blog, then you would know very well what they want.
                Why would anyone who (1) didn't work for Google, (2) wasn't sucking up to kiss Matt Cutt's or Google's arse, or (3) trying to sell something to other attendees, go to such a thing? What Google says makes for a good internet is often not what ranks, sorry to say.

                Tom
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                • Profile picture of the author Jacob Martus
                  Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

                  Along those lines, Page 1 ranking means almost nothing. For most keywords, in particular the ones that you are talking about trying to rank with no backlinks, you better be top 3 if you want any sort of traffic.



                  you just aren't going to rank for keywords that get any traffic either. The exception is: If you buy an aged, established domain, already with backlinks and PR, then sure, you may be able to rank a page high in Google with none, or at least very little backlinks. Also of course, if you get an EMD, you likely can rank that on page 1 without any backlinks.



                  In almost all cases, that just doesn't produce the be best long-term results. As terry already stated, it would be advisable to start building up the authority (via backlinks) from day one. This will help your site rank your pages much faster, much sooner. If you build lots of content with no backlinks,your site will still have no authority after 3 months. Build up the authority on with backlinks, and add content as you go.



                  I'm not sure how this is related to anything in this thread:confused: I hope someone could shed some light on this. You don't need dupe content to get a site up quickly, you also don't need many pages of content to start ranking pages very well. I get 2 page sites to rank extremely well.





                  Again, going to have to disagree here. If you really want the fastest long term growth, you will build up the links from day one, and build the content as you go, along with the backlinks. You will have more authority 2 years down the road then building up content, and that's it.



                  Why would anyone who (1) didn't work for Google, (2) wasn't sucking up to kiss Matt Cutt's or Google's arse, or (3) trying to sell something to other attendees, go to such a thing? What Google says makes for a good internet is often not what ranks, sorry to say.

                  Tom
                  Wait just a minute...you mean to say that Matt Cutts might not have our best interests as SEO's or small businesses in mind? But...why else would he be giving us all this information?

                  He certainly wouldn't be telling us all that to prevent web-spam in a less algorithmic way....right?
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                  • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
                    Originally Posted by Jacob Martus View Post

                    Wait just a minute...you mean to say that Matt Cutts might not have our best interests as SEO's or small businesses in mind? But...why else would he be giving us all this information?

                    He certainly wouldn't be telling us all that to prevent web-spam in a less algorithmic way....right?
                    Nah, they would never want to say anything that might cause webmasters to do their own bidding and make their jobs much easier:rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author semeasy
    I agree. Some niches NO backlinks are required at all. You should complete your keyword research before the site is built and proper on site SEO is paramount, however, I do believe that without a back linking strategy, someone is going to take you out of the top position very easily...

    I agree that back links are not everything but in any market where there is some competition it is a large percent..
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  • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
    Originally Posted by KevL View Post

    Do an exact match search in Google (in quote marks) and see how many competitiors there are for the term, then use the SEO quake firefox plugin or the SEO for Firefox plugin, and look at what the PR and backlink numbers are for those on page one - this gives you an idea of what the competition is. If you have a brand new site, and you're competing against 10,000, and the average PR on page one is 4, and the average backlinks number is 3,000 - 5,000 - and the average site age is 4 years, then obviously you're going to have a job & a half getting that site onto page one for that term.
    To each their own, but I think for the vast majority of IMers this will not produce very good keyword research.

    First, searching for your keyword in Google, even with quotes, does not tell you how many competitors you have. This is only one, very slight, step better than doing a keyword search in Google without quotes.

    This is like all those IMers who brag about how they are god because they rank page 1 against 200 million competitors, with a cute picture of the Google search with the 200 million search results circles. Sure, that might impress the newbies, but it is pure 100% bunk.

    Competitors are pages of sites that are actually optimized for the given keyword, and finding the exact keyword on the page does not make a page optimized You need to get into numbers like keyword in title, keyword in URL, keyword in header tags, etc., if you want to talk about competition. Searching for the keyword in Google to determine competition is just silly.

    Second, you are over-emphasizing the importance of both domain age and PR. Might domain age help a little? Sure, but there are 100s of more important factors. Same goes for PR. What matters are the backlinks and whether the page is optimized for the keyword, and if the backlinks coming in have the keyword as the anchor text coming in. I don't give a rat's ass if the other site is a PR1 or PR5. What matters is whether they have quality backlinks coming in, whether the page is optimized for the keyword, and whether the backlinks coming in are optimized for that given keyword. If the "competitor's" page is PR5 but none of the backlinks are optimized for that keyword and the page is not optimized for the keyword, they can suck it, and i'll crush them with my 1 month old site.

    Also, who cares if they have 3000 backlinks or not? One needs to analyze the backlinks to determine what percentage of them have the keyword as the anchor text, what the PR of the backlinks (both page and domain) are, etc. Just seeing a number of "3000" or whatever tells you very very little.

    As for the original post, i'm glad that works for you, I really am. But, I think for most, one can start backlinking from day 1 with great success, and it doesn't need to cost a ton or eat up huge chunks of your time.

    Tom
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    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Sounds like you're suffering from analysis paralysis to me!

      Yeah, of course there are more sophisticated ways to do keyword research, but I wouldn't reccomend them for most web marketers.

      This is the problem, people get bogged down.

      My post was mainly aimed at newer web marketers who I see all the time who're struggling because they're focusing on search terms which they're going to struggle like heck to get on page one for, and who put far too much effort in to trying to get pretty poor sites, with a couple of articles & some adsense units, to page one of Google.

      I personally wouldn't suggest these kinds of methods of more advanced analytical SEO campaigns, to people who're new to web marketing & don't yet have a decent grasp on it, or any real experience. Instead, I would advise - SHOCK.... HORROR - that they focus instead on their website, increasing the quality & quantity of content & features, and that they focus on search terms that they do stand a cat in hells chance of rankingon page one for - and that in time they then move onto backlinking.

      If you think, as many appear to, that the quality of the content & features doesn't matter, and that WMers are well advised to throw up a site with one or two articles, and then backlink the hell out of it - then OK. We'll have to agree to disagree....


      Originally Posted by Tom Goodwin View Post

      To each their own, but I think for the vast majority of IMers this will not produce very good keyword research.

      First, searching for your keyword in Google, even with quotes, does not tell you how many competitors you have. This is only one, very slight, step better than doing a keyword search in Google without quotes.

      This is like all those IMers who brag about how they are god because they rank page 1 against 200 million competitors, with a cute picture of the Google search with the 200 million search results circles. Sure, that might impress the newbies, but it is pure 100% bunk.

      Competitors are pages of sites that are actually optimized for the given keyword, and finding the exact keyword on the page does not make a page optimized You need to get into numbers like keyword in title, keyword in URL, keyword in header tags, etc., if you want to talk about competition. Searching for the keyword in Google to determine competition is just silly.

      Second, you are over-emphasizing the importance of both domain age and PR. Might domain age help a little? Sure, but there are 100s of more important factors. Same goes for PR. What matters are the backlinks and whether the page is optimized for the keyword, and if the backlinks coming in have the keyword as the anchor text coming in. I don't give a rat's ass if the other site is a PR1 or PR5. What matters is whether they have quality backlinks coming in, whether the page is optimized for the keyword, and whether the backlinks coming in are optimized for that given keyword. If the "competitor's" page is PR5 but none of the backlinks are optimized for that keyword and the page is not optimized for the keyword, they can suck it, and i'll crush them with my 1 month old site.

      Also, who cares if they have 3000 backlinks or not? One needs to analyze the backlinks to determine what percentage of them have the keyword as the anchor text, what the PR of the backlinks (both page and domain) are, etc. Just seeing a number of "3000" or whatever tells you very very little.

      As for the original post, i'm glad that works for you, I really am. But, I think for most, one can start backlinking from day 1 with great success, and it doesn't need to cost a ton or eat up huge chunks of your time.

      Tom
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      SEO Kev
      Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
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  • Profile picture of the author Estelle4131
    Okay, but I thought the money was in the big markets. Are you getting page one rankings for keywords that are in the big markets, weight loss, loans, insurance, dogs, etc.

    If so, I like to know more.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by Estelle4131 View Post

      Okay, but I thought the money was in the big markets. Are you getting page one rankings for keywords that are in the big markets, weight loss, loans, insurance, dogs, etc.

      .
      The money is not in those markets if you cannot rank high for them. Thats the great point the OP makes
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    • Profile picture of the author KevL
      Originally Posted by Estelle4131 View Post

      Okay, but I thought the money was in the big markets. Are you getting page one rankings for keywords that are in the big markets, weight loss, loans, insurance, dogs, etc.

      If so, I like to know more.
      There is money everywhere, as there are markets everywhere in which money changes hands, not just the big markets.

      You can focus on niche search terms within a niche, or you can focus on the more mainstream terms within a less competitive niche.

      Personally, I prefer to go in the opposite direction of the crowd, it's less crowded! ;-) So I prefer Niches in which the main search terms are easy win's - rather than focus on longtail terms within the large niches.

      Cheers

      Kev
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      Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
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  • Profile picture of the author seorocks1
    The topic started is something which I have experienced with one of my gadget blog. I started my blog and daily I used to post 2 blog posts up to 20 days continuously. My blog posts would even out rank top blogs like engadget and crunch gear with out any backlink profile at all. But as my frequency of posting decreased I found a big dip in rankings.

    KEVL did you experience the same thing with your site? I am just curious.
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Crooks
      Kev, good posts and to a large extent I agree with what you are saying. I think it is a bit of a pity that the emphasis in your post was about the backlinking side of things rather than emphasising the main point about starting a site the right way.

      What I mean by that is that I totally agree with you about a brand new site should concentrate on targeting keywords that are relatively easy to rank for. Obviously, ranking number 1 for the term "ghksuhsui" is just pointless but the sort of terms that get less than a thousand searches and some obscure competition are good to start with but they will still need some backlinks to go with some good on page SEO as well. I always say that a new site should start small to grow big. Start with a tiny acorn and grow it into an oak over the coming years. It REALLY is the best strategy for new sites.
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      • Profile picture of the author KevL
        Originally Posted by Steve Crooks View Post

        Kev, good posts and to a large extent I agree with what you are saying. I think it is a bit of a pity that the emphasis in your post was about the backlinking side of things rather than emphasising the main point about starting a site the right way.

        What I mean by that is that I totally agree with you about a brand new site should concentrate on targeting keywords that are relatively easy to rank for. Obviously, ranking number 1 for the term "ghksuhsui" is just pointless but the sort of terms that get less than a thousand searches and some obscure competition are good to start with but they will still need some backlinks to go with some good on page SEO as well. I always say that a new site should start small to grow big. Start with a tiny acorn and grow it into an oak over the coming years. It REALLY is the best strategy for new sites.
        Hi Steve

        Yes you're probably right, the reason I started off with that emphasis was because the discussion I was having in another thread was basically that someone was saying "you need backlinks, and you cannot rank without focussing on backlinks" and that thread was killed (not sure why) so I created a new one to carry on in reply to the comments on there which were basically that backlinking was everything & that this should be the focus from the off - hense the reason for the title.

        But yes, the main point is that I beleive that the initial focus should be on creating great value - rather than starting off trying to fake value with backlinks.

        Certain people here..... are of the opinion that it's better to spam first, then use the money you've gained by spamming, to pay to have content written - just doesn't make sense to me. Personally I think the best idea is to start of focussing on creating value, and focus on search terms which the site stands a chance of ranking for initially, and raise the target as you go along.

        Maybe i'm wrong - maybe I should go to the dark side , but it just doesn't make any sense to me, and I'm convinced that anyone who thinks they're smart enough to outsmart Google with tactics such as "buy an aged domain & blast the heck out of it" are living in a dream world. If I was smarter than Google, I would be woth who knows how many billion!!!

        Cheers

        Kev
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        SEO Kev
        Small business SEO / Web Marketing Tips.
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        • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
          Originally Posted by KevL View Post

          Certain people here..... are of the opinion that it's better to spam first, then use the money you've gained by spamming, to pay to have content written - just doesn't make sense to me.
          This statement is a red herring and you know it.

          Perhaps you forgot your first post? Your position was to build tons of content first, and then deal with backlinks later. Many of us strongly disagree with that assertion, with the position that the best long term result will occur when you start backlinking from early on, and then build content,


          Originally Posted by KevL View Post

          I'm convinced that anyone who thinks they're smart enough to outsmart Google with tactics such as "buy an aged domain & blast the heck out of it" are living in a dream world. If I was smarter than Google, I would be woth who knows how many billion!!!
          The fact is, this is a proven tactic that works time and time again. Aged domains already with authority typically do not experience any sort of "dance" as you add backlinks to them. There is a reason why i've bought >200 aged domains in just the past 4 months and it isn't because they just look pretty sitting on my shelf. Of course, i'll defer to your backlinking and domain acquisition expertise on this one.

          In fact, my partner Terry Kyle has been doing this for some time setting up sites for ultra-high end amazon products and it works quite well. It is pretty easy to get a site up to #1 doing this without any sort of "waiting period" if you will.

          As an example of my own most recent efforts, I recently (i.e., 2 weeks ago) purchased an aged PR4 domain. The domain had good backlinks, a good history, a DMOZ listing and brandable name that I could use for my project. I identified ~100 keywords i'm going after, each that I estimate has at least a daily SEO Value potential (if in the top spot of google) of >$100 per day. These are not keywords like "make money online", but all pretty competitive (e.g., each keyword has at least 50 EZA articles targeting the exact keyword). I have outsourced content creation (to a warrior for hire actually). So far, I have 7 pages up, and 6 so far indexed. The rankings for the keywords already, after being up for less than a week, range from 7 to 28 in Google (median being 13). How was this possible? The pages are on an aged domain that Google feels has "authority", and gave me a huge boost. If this was a new domain, or an article on EZA, the articles would be no where to be found, in my experience. Now what? I start backlinking them and there is little doubt (to me) that they should perform quite well to the backlinking without any sort of "dance."

          Anyways, this thread has become pointless. I'll stick to what works and has been proven to work time and time again.
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  • Profile picture of the author mowens17
    Think Id agree with KevL. it just depends on the niche, when you do competition analysis, u see some sites which have minimal backlinks, some are not even optimised like title, desc, H1 tag etc. Secondly domain name, having the keyword in the domain name seems to be extremely beneficial if you want to target super competitive niches.
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  • Profile picture of the author tma
    I agree with the op. Check searh result for google click cached you'll get and idea. You may not even use the keyword i get traffic daily from ltk i did not target.
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom Goodwin
      Originally Posted by tma View Post

      I agree with the op. Check searh result for google click cached you'll get and idea. You may not even use the keyword i get traffic daily from ltk i did not target.
      LOL, what?:confused:
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  • Profile picture of the author QuantumMan
    This is a very informative. Thanks for all the good info.
    We've tried backlinks to get to page 1 with little or no success.
    We've also tried searching for and finding those gem keywords---using Wordtracker.
    Not much success there.
    My question...what do you do with these gem keywords??
    Certainly use them in content on the page being optimized.
    But, what else...does any one have an opinion on the value of Meta Tags, Title, Description, etc?
    We hired an SEO specialist who swore that this is the holy grail. But, alas...nothing!
    No page 1 results.

    Any thoughts??
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  • Profile picture of the author pinoyrecipes
    i agree on this post, i think having a high quality content is very important for a new website like mine,
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  • Profile picture of the author debtdue
    This is especially true with the Sandbox effect, where new sites are limited on how high they can rank for big keywords. It takes a while to crack into the top 10 for big keywords, but if there is no competition then it is easy to be #1.

    Good thread...
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary Pettit
    Yep....everything works together...not just backlinking alone! Content, features, seo, brand awarness etc! It's a constant diverse process!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jordan Kovats
    I worked on a site once where one page fluctuated between pos 1&2 for the keyword on google.ca, and pos 5 on google.com, based on just content. No link building effort was put in. It has since slipped, but was there for 5-6 months. Unfortunately the words 'individual benefits' weren't high traffic terms.
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  • Profile picture of the author seoindiaforu
    Yes I do agree...backlinks are important because it is the measure of your site popularity.
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  • Profile picture of the author dagaul101
    Agreed backlinks are not required for all niches, there are new niches being found everyday where you can get get to page 1 with the right mix of keywords in your url, but eventually when that niche becomes competitive, you will need backlinks
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