$10,000 Prize To Beat This Control

Sean Fry

13 years ago

I've seen that VSL a few times now actually. It is good. Who wrote that one?

Janka is a baller.

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dancaron 13 years ago

I wrote it.
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sethczerepak

13 years ago

That is a good presentation, but Paul Janka's social proof also has a lot to do with it, just look at all the TV shows he's been featured on.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

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dancaron

13 years ago

There are a lot of social proof elements that can be integrated into the pitch. Would love to hear some of your ideas.

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CabTenson

13 years ago

Do you have the written transcript for that VSL? I'd love to have it for my swipe file.

By the way, why do you need a new VSL if this one is beating all the ones written by experts? Is it not high-performing enough?

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dancaron 13 years ago

CabTenson: "By the way, why do you need a new VSL if this one is beating all the ones written by experts? Is it not high-performing enough?"

>> Always looking to improve conversion rate!

Raydal: "What do I get if I don't beat your control apart from wasted time and effort?"

>> Character.
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- Pusateri 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by dancaron
  
  Raydal: "What do I get if I don't beat your control apart from wasted time and effort?"
  
  >> Character.
  
  Know what REALLY builds character? Paying your own way.
  
  You are the entrepreneur. The rewards that come from your efforts are yours to enjoy. And the risks are yours to bear.
  
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- Raydal 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by dancaron
  
  CabTenson:
  
  Raydal: "What do I get if I don't beat your control apart from wasted time and effort?"
  
  >> Character.
  
  Don't you want character as well? Give me the $10,000 and
  this will build your generosity.
  
  -Ray Edwards
  
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dancaron 13 years ago

Pusateri, not quite sure if your post was directed at me or raydal. This is a contest, I'm not forcing anyone to take a shot if they don't want to.
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- Pusateri 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by dancaron
  
  Pusateri, not quite sure if your post was directed at me or raydal. This is a contest, I'm not forcing anyone to take a shot if they don't want to.
  
  It's directed at you and I'm saying you're cheap and disrespectful.
  
  If an entry in your "contest" doesn't beat your control will you at least donate any profit you make from it to a worthy cause? You know...put yourself in the same boat as the copywriter. Will ya?
  
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dancaron

13 years ago

Pusateri,

I've farmed out well over $100,000 in copywriting jobs. I wouldn't call that cheap.

And I have been there myself. In my earlier days, I put entire websites together with no deposit and no guarantee of the project even landing in my lap. I had faith in my abilities and was willing to demonstrate that to the client at my own risk.

On top of that, it's common practice in this industry for copywriters to take jobs on performance. It's almost a universally recommended practice in most copywriting courses. It's a contest, and one that I specifically noted was targeted at relatively experienced writers, who should speak to me first to make sure it's a good use of their time. I meant no disrepect to raydal. Get a grip man.

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arfasaira

13 years ago

Originally Posted by dancaron

It's a contest, and one that I specifically noted was targeted at relatively experienced writers, who should speak to me first to make sure it's a good use of their time. I meant no disrepect to raydal. Get a grip man.

The main problem here is that experienced writers don't have a spare 40 hours + to take a shot at beating a control. Maybe less experienced copywriters might take a chance (and it's a good way to sharpen your skills), but for most of us, we are booked out with clients who have to wait to get a piece of us.

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abugah

13 years ago

Originally Posted by arfasaira

The main problem here is that experienced writers don't have a spare 40 hours + to take a shot at beating a control. Maybe less experienced copywriters might take a chance (and it's a good way to sharpen your skills), but for most of us, we are booked out with clients who have to wait to get a piece of us.

Agreed. The challenge looks like it is geared to the not-so-busy copywriters. That's not to say that an inexperienced copywriter cannot beat a control.

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dancaron 13 years ago

To the others who are PMing me, please make sure to include your email address, because I can't send direct messages seeing as I have less than 50 posts.
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Raydal

13 years ago

What do I get if I don't beat your control apart from wasted
time and effort?

-Ray Edwards

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sethczerepak 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

What do I get if I don't beat your control apart from wasted
time and effort?

-Ray Edwards

lol, Ray, you just said what we were all thinking. I'd say if it's worth $10k for them to find someone to beat it, I might as well beat it will my own product and create a new income stream.
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- Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago
  
  Latest Top Secret Progress Report
  
  Mark - has finished his, and is opening up a Swiss bank account in case he wins
  
  Mal – is busy using a synthesiser desperately trying to tone down his Aussie voice over
  
  Bruce – is working like a man possessed and getting tons of helpful hints from his lovely girlfriend (she’s not exactly overly impressed that he’s doing this – but he’s promised her ½ the winnings)
  
  Steve
  
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Robert_Rand

13 years ago

Add in visual elements. A whiteboard type drawing, or even still pictures to compliment the text. In my testing, that increases response.

Cheers,
R

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Robert_Rand 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Robert_Rand

Add in visual elements. A whiteboard type drawing, or even still pictures to compliment the text. In my testing, that increases response.

Cheers,
R

Looks like he did the above... which is a smart 1st thing to test if you already have a proven sales message.
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ThomasOMalley

13 years ago

Such a tempting offer...I think I'll pass.

The other posts say it all.

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Pusateri

13 years ago

Sorry, Dan. I may have been a wee bit harsh. That 'character' crack got under my skin.

A little story:

One day Mrs. Carrington announced to her first grade class that Douglas the Magician would be performing in the school auditorium the following week. Whoever sold the most tickets would win a super-deluxe magic set with something like a hundred amazing tricks in it.

DAMN I wanted that set!

Whatever you call a six-year-old's version of lust, I had it for that box of plastic foolery.

I knocked on every door in the neighborhood, crossed streets I was not allowed to, and told every patient soul about this rare opportunity to see a real life magician. I sold over eighty tickets. Even sold one to a wino I found sleeping in an alley.

But Robert Parker sold a few more. The set was his.

The day of the show my mom said, "Get dressed so we can go see Douglas the Magician."

"F&%k Douglas the Magician."

An hour later I'm sitting on a sore butt watching this hack do a bunch of stoooopid tricks with rope and rings.

Doing all that work to sell all those tickets and getting no reward didn't build any character. It just made me want to kick Douglas' magic ass.

BTW...All the pros knew when I called you cheap you would come back with how much you had spent on copywriters. A low level trick, but it still beats rings and rope.

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tsx

12 years ago

Great job everyone. Maybe we should try something like this too.

Originally Posted by Pusateri

Sorry, Dan. I may have been a wee bit harsh. That 'character' crack got under my skin.

A little story:

One day Mrs. Carrington announced to her first grade class that Douglas the Magician would be performing in the school auditorium the following week. Whoever sold the most tickets would win a super-deluxe magic set with something like a hundred amazing tricks in it.

DAMN I wanted that set!

Whatever you call a six-year-old's version of lust, I had it for that box of plastic foolery.

I knocked on every door in the neighborhood, crossed streets I was not allowed to, and told every patient soul about this rare opportunity to see a real life magician. I sold over eighty tickets. Even sold one to a wino I found sleeping in an alley.

But Robert Parker sold a few more. The set was his.

The day of the show my mom said, "Get dressed so we can go see Douglas the Magician."

"F&%k Douglas the Magician."

An hour later I'm sitting on a sore butt watching this hack do a bunch of stoooopid tricks with rope and rings.

Doing all that work to sell all those tickets and getting no reward didn't build any character. It just made me want to kick Douglas' magic ass.

BTW...All the pros knew when I called you cheap you would come back with how much you had spent on copywriters. A low level trick, but it still beats rings and rope.

Pusateri my friend I feel for you because I see myself as a little boy in a similar situation.

Having said that, we also need to understand that in life There is Risk! It happens all the time that the best laid plans of men and ... etc etc, you know the story. When there is risk, there is winning and there is LOSING and losing badly. One needs to learn to deal with that and learn from it and pick up the pieces and enjoy the magic show and congratulate Bob Parker.

I have entered many contests and I have won many and lost many more. In my opinion it does build character. As an entrepreneur I put my butt on the line every minute of the day. Sometimes I cash in big and I sometimes I don't. I have $100,000 days and $1,000 months. And we are all entrepreneurs in life to some extend. Nobody can take all the risk away, but of course they should not try to push their risk burden others, I agree with you.

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NickN

12 years ago

Originally Posted by tsx

Pusateri my friend I feel for you because I see myself as a little boy in a similar situation.

Having said that, we also need to understand that in life There is Risk! It happens all the time that the best laid plans of men and ... etc etc, you know the story. When there is risk, there is winning and there is LOSING and losing badly. One needs to learn to deal with that and learn from it and pick up the pieces and enjoy the magic show and congratulate Bob Parker.

I have entered many contests and I have won many and lost many more. In my opinion it does build character. As an entrepreneur I put my butt on the line every minute of the day. Sometimes I cash in big and I sometimes I don't. I have $100,000 days and $1,000 months. And we are all entrepreneurs in life to some extend. Nobody can take all the risk away, but of course they should not try to push their risk burden others, I agree with you.

Beautifully said.

My motto is similar to yours, but a little cruder: "Oh, what the hell...just go for it!"

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mhdeaton 12 years ago

This is hilarious!!!

Originally Posted by Pusateri

Sorry, Dan. I may have been a wee bit harsh. That 'character' crack got under my skin.

- snip -
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dancaron

13 years ago

I hope everyone is very busy and well paid! If this contest is for the not-so-busy, but slightly advanced copywriter, than so be it. The character comment was a light-hearted joke, it wasn't meant to be taken any other way. :-)

I'm just putting this out there, so that I can reach an audience of copywriters, and if one (or several) watch the control, and think they can beat it, I would be more than happy to pay them for their efforts. I can only hire and engage so many copywriters at once, so I feel that this contest is a way to open the doors to other potential writers who feel that they have the chops to beat it.

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

I discussed this with Dan by phone today. I found him to be a pleasant, knowledgeable guy who has great insight into his product and market.

I'm going to give it a shot. I appreciate his offer. This isn't some lame contest like we've seen here before. His product is real; it is a heavy-hitter; and he has all the elements and traffic necessary to succeed.

Why am I doing it?

I haven't written a piece of copy for a client in over a year. I've been busy writing my own stuff. I don't seek clients because I find most of them to be more trouble than they're worth and I can make more money writing my own copy.

But, the $10k definitely got my attention. I've written for this niche before with success and I know I can do the job quickly. I won't have to do a lot of market research and feel 3-4 days effort will complete the job.

I also have confidence that I can improve his control. Not certainty, but enough confidence to justify the time it will take me. I think I have a good chance at snagging the $10k.

Lastly, I've got personal experience with what winning something like this does for your reputation. I won a similar challenge by Gary Ambrose about 5 years ago and that boosted my reputation sky high.

Truthfully, I shouldn't even make this post because I may persuade others to jump in, but the competitor in me says, "What the hell... Bring it!"

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

The guy may be the most pleasant guy in the world but it still doesn't cut it for me.

Basically you want as many copywriters as possible to do something for you - for no reward.

Meanwhile...

...you set everyone's supplied copy up on a number of test pages and drive an equal amount of traffic to each piece of sales copy.

Sure... it makes perfect sense for you. Everyone's copy converts to one extent or another and you rake in the profit.

Meanwhile...

...all but one person loses out. And even then... there's no guarantee this single copywriter will beat your current control.

And who is to say without seeing the traffic you brought to your own sales copy, which you wrote yourself, that this will be the same very highly targeted traffic sent to each of the pieces of sales copy submitted to you?

This is flawed from the beginning. Fatally flawed.

Best thing for you to do if there is an element or any shred of doubt about your own sales copy performance is to carry your own due diligence and research into hiring one single copywriter and pay this copywriter their fee.

Personally I'll pass.

Mark Andrews

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

And who is to say without seeing the traffic you brought to your own sales copy, which you wrote yourself, that this will be the same very highly targeted traffic sent to each of the pieces of sales copy submitted to you?

If he were to conduct an invalid test, as you suggest, he'd only be potentially shorting himself. Only a fool would do what you suggest.

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

Best thing for you to do if there is an element or any shred of doubt about your own sales copy performance is to carry your own due diligence and research into hiring one single copywriter and pay this copywriter their fee.

I disagree. I've always thought, the best thing any marketer with the resources can do, is to hire 2-4 great copywriters and test them all. All of us are capable of hitting one out of the park and equally capable of missing the mark (pun intended) completely. Besides, this is exactly what the $100+ million direct mail companies do on a daily basis.

Anyway, I respect your opinion and decision Mark. After all, you've got a bunch of sales letters to write for a guaranteed $197, right?

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

After all, you've got a bunch of sales letters to write for a guaranteed $197, right?

What I charge as a lead in offer is completely up to me Bruce and hasn't really got a fat lot to do with yourself.

Mark Andrews

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

What I charge as a lead in offer is completely up to me Bruce and hasn't really got a fat lot to do with yourself.

Mark,

I'm not interested in a fight, but for you to come in here and slam a guy offering a $10,000 prize is uncalled for. If you don't want to do it, move on. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one less guy to beat.

But, I'm still puzzled why a guy that claims to write good sales copy in 3-4 hours for $197 wouldn't give up 3-4 hours for a shot at 50X what he normally charges, and all that comes from winning.

You strike me as a guy that can't see the forest for the trees. Then again, perhaps I don't understand your marketing funnel at all. I admit to never understanding the dirt cheap copywriters. I won't login for $197. My impression of a guy writing anything for that kind of money is, he's desperate and woefully unaware of how to wring money out of this Internet thing. But that's just my personal impression and obviously wrong in your case.

Peace.

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RickDuris 13 years ago

Hell yeah, I'd jump on this. I have zero costs and endless creativity. If only I had the time.

Damn. Maybe some other time.

----

And Bruce is dead on right. Beating an established control is probably just as valuable to one's copywriting career as making the $10K.

For instance, Matt O'Connor just beat a control for one of the 9-figure mailers. He's going to be flooded with work.

Why? Because he's "hot." It's like Las Vegas. When you're hot, you're hot. And Matt's hot.

Speaking from experience, having that one arrow in your quiver opens a lot of doors.

----

And lest anyone think dancaron is playing games, here's his traffic stats:

The graph speaks for itself. And I strongly suspect the traffic is understated.

- Rick Duris
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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Mark,

I'm not interested in a fight, but for you to come in here and slam a guy offering a $10,000 prize is uncalled for. If you don't want to do it, move on. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one less guy to beat.

But, I'm still puzzled why a guy that claims to write good sales copy in 3-4 hours for $197 wouldn't give up 3-4 hours for a shot at 50X what he normally charges, and all that comes from winning.

You strike me as a guy that can't see the forest for the trees. Then again, perhaps I don't understand your marketing funnel at all. I admit to never understanding the dirt cheap copywriters. I won't login for $197. My impression of a guy writing anything for that kind of money is, he's desperate and woefully unaware of how to wring money out of this Internet thing. But that's just my personal impression and obviously wrong in your case.

Peace.

You know, maybe you're right. My initial reaction to your comments above was the typical Mark Andrews knee jerk reaction. Now you put it like this, bahhhhh lol (ya pain) - well, you might very well be right upon reflection.

I'll think about it. Not completely made up my mind now against this.

You're such a bloody pain in the ass Bruce, you never did shy away from telling me like it is.

Peace to you too.

Mark Andrews

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Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago

Okay...

Count me in, pm sent to the OP.

Game on.

Mark Andrews
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dancaron

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

And who is to say without seeing the traffic you brought to your own sales copy, which you wrote yourself, that this will be the same very highly targeted traffic sent to each of the pieces of sales copy submitted to you?

Testing sequentially is not a valid way to split test. You always test in parallel against the control. To do so otherwise would be "fatally flawed." That's testing 101.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Bruce is right. If the guy is a pro and knows what he's doing - this is worth a shot.

Any of you guys work in an agency? You'd get to do plenty of unpaid pitchs to get new clients.

I'm gonna talk to the dude - hoping he wants a foul-mouthed wise-guy as the hero - right up my alley.

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Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago

Oh great, Mal is all I need right now.

Mark mutters something something incomprehensible under his breath.
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Traffic Master

Banned 13 years ago

I'm looking for information now, I'll inform you.

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Shoulda kept my freakin' mouth shut

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Steve The Copywriter

13 years ago

Ladies and Gentleman - place your bets please...

Who do you think will win?

Write your answer below...

Ok - seconds out!

Round One.

I've got my tactic for this - do a control that beats the new control.

F*** me then it really will be a brilliant promo (I'll probably only have to change a few words here and there).

When that happens - I'll buy you all a drink.

Steve

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

You already owe me about 10 pints of Doombar Steve.

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Steve The Copywriter

13 years ago

lol.

You won't be upset if I smash your control will you Mark?

I imagine Bruce and Mal will order a hit on me if I smash theirs.

Steve

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ewenmack 13 years ago

Who's going to promote the Mal, Mark And Bruce show...

Step up folks, see how these giants wrestle money out of
unsuspecting grown men with the flick of a finger...

Adult beverage, gags and gal's FREE...

Step up and see shark wrestler nazi use bad-mouthed humor
to having them rollin' on the floor with uncontrollable fits of laughter
while Dan the Man gets his slimy hands on their money.

Next act is Mark sweet-talking Malone,
watch as the world record holder of
slight of hand pat them on the back while deftly
removing the 100 bills outta their back pockets...

Step right up gentlemen and watch Bruiser-Bruce
lay down the law to the guy's who aren't getting
a gal tonight and empty them of their last dollar...
and have them lovin' him for it...

Step this way gentlemen, show starting in under 10 minutes...

Easy Nora will take care of you over here, step right up...

Anyway, that's my stupid fun for the night.

Over and out.

Ewen
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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter

lol.

You won't be upset if I smash your control will you Mark?

I imagine Bruce and Mal will order a hit on me if I smash theirs.

Steve

You haven't got a bloody chance mate, you may as well give up now whilst you can save yourself some grace.

No point beating around the bush, you haven't got a hope in hell. You know it. I know it Steve.

Boys will be boys. Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

Mark shakes his head.

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Steve The Copywriter

13 years ago

Mark,

I do know one thing - and so do you - I can sky rocket the sales on any piece of your copy.

How about a private bet - I get (at the very least) a 575% better response than you?

(wonders if one of my phenomenal flyers will work well on a VSL)....

Steve, no worries you could write it with a quill on parchment - with your eyes closed and one arm behind your back - and still smash marks effort into dust lol.

Steve

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Steve The Copywriter

13 years ago

Alright...

From our 3 main contenders - in alphabetical order

Bruce

Mal

Mark

Who do you all think will win?

(I'm not voting - but after the banter with Mark - it would be fun if he did win - can you imagine the looks on Bruce and Mals faces...)

Steve

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Marc Rodill

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter

Alright...

From our 3 main contenders - in alphabetical order

Bruce

Mal

Mark

Who do you all think will win?

(I'm not voting - but after the banter with Mark - it would be fun if he did win - can you imagine the looks on Bruce and Mals faces...)

Steve

I pick Steve.

Did i get it right?

marc

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter

Mark,

I do know one thing - and so do you - I can sky rocket the sales on any piece of your copy.

How about a private bet - I get (at the very least) a 575% better response than you?

(wonders if one of my phenomenal flyers will work well on a VSL)....

Steve, no worries you could write it with a quill on parchment - with your eyes closed and one arm behind your back - and still smash marks effort into dust lol.

Steve

You want to know what I think of that?

Piffle.

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Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago

Mark,

You've just categorically proven my entire point.

When you need better results from your copy - just let me know...

Steve

P.S. Enough of this - get writing for the competition and lets see if a UK writer can win.
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colmodwyer

13 years ago

I'm with Bruce on this one...

I actually wrote for the Gary Ambrose competition too, and came a close third for the paid offer. Gary didn't give me a single cent, but because Gary tested I had something much more valuable... PROOF I could hang with the "Big Dogs."

Considering I'd only been learning to write copy for 6-months, I was thrilled!

Wasn't the last time I wrote for free either... I tried to beat a Vin Montello headline too, as far as I know the client never tested, but the risk/reward was worth it.

Though I wasn't accumulating a lot of $$$s, I was getting a TON of experience. It was a long-term plan, basically...

Fast-forward five years and I've been paid as much as 6-figures for a single sales letter (royalties of course).

Looking at it another way.

My plan was essentially, what would I rather...

a) Write a package for $197*

b) Write a package for Bottom-Line, for FREE

Hint... it's a lot easier to get work with GOOD clients when you charge $0.00

If I had NO confidence and NO ambition, I'd have picked a)... and I'd probably be moaning about how cheap Dan is too.

"Why not pay 50 copywriters $197 you cheap *******!?"

Alas, I went with b) because frankly, I LOVE copywriting!

And I'd LOVE to have a crack at this -- ESPECIALLY because Bruce is doing it -- but with all due respect to the Big Dog, all my time is spent trying to beat Arthur Johnson controls, right now...

Getting paid for my time too (plus royalties), but the truth is I'd probably do it for free!**

Colm

P.S. Because I won't be taking part, I'll put my money on Bruce.

*$197 is an arbitrary number, not aimed at anyone in specific.

** That IS the truth. If there's a job I really want, I basically say I'll work free for three months. If I'm not taking names and kicking butt in three months, I'll kick myself to the curb! Though, typically I can't give away three months of my time now.

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Daniel Scott

13 years ago

I think this is a great opportunity.

I'd probably go for it - if only to throw down against someone as talented as Bruce - if I could make the time in my schedule.

But I'm guessing Dan wants to finish this contest up before May :p

I know one of the ways Vin got his name out there was a copywriting contest, so if they're legit - and this one seems to be - it's not always a bad thing to do.

I think it'd be extra cool if Dan posted up the names of say the three best writers (best meaning converts the best) - since I'm guessing whoever wins will have a ton of work.

-Daniel

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Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago

Yea, fame, glory and acclaim awaits the winner.

And a big chunk of cash.

Anymore contenders?

Steve
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Hugh Thyer

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I think this is a great opportunity.

I'd probably go for it - if only to throw down against someone as talented as Bruce - if I could make the time in my schedule.

Come on Daniel, we can turn this into the copy equivalent of The Ashes.

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Marc Rodill

13 years ago

Anyway, a colleague of mine pointed me towards this
thread.

I had many things to say, none of which I'll share here.

My question is...

Who is the man reading the script? How did you decide
on him?

Thanks for indulging me, if you do,

Marc

PS. removed

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Marc Rodill

Anyway, a colleague of mine pointed me towards this
thread.

I had many things to say, none of which I'll share here.

My question is...

Who is the man reading the script? How did you decide
on him?

Thanks for indulging me, if you do,

Marc

PS. removed

Yes. Exactly. The V/O could be much better.

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Chris Thompson

13 years ago

Dan,

You and I are both using VSL, both written by ourselves.
I've thought about ways to beat my existing script.

But instead I went in a totally different direction by keeping the EXACT script intact and changing the video so something much more engaging. In other words, not a boring powerpoint video with words that match the script.

I hired THAT part out, rather than hiring a copywriter. The results have been phenomenal, and my old video had a decent conversion.

Just something to consider. For a 15 minute video get someone to storyboard up a very interesting and engaging video. Then hire them to put it into action. White board animation, Andy Jenkins "Video Boss" style, whatever. There are lots of things you can try.

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markpocock

13 years ago

Dan

Are you paying a royalty payment?

warmly
Mark

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

@ Daniel, Hugh (& other Aussies),

(For the Australian market) I was thinking of heading it "How to be a Root-Rat"

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Simon Ashari

13 years ago

damn... I'm hoping this control gets demolished.

Good luck to everyone who enters.

-Simon

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Look what I started? LOL

You're welcome, Dan

To the rest of you... "Bring It!"

Now I'm entering deep stealth mode!

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NickN 13 years ago

I will give this a shot.

Approximately -1 people are scared of the above sentence.
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dancaron

13 years ago

Looks like we have ourselves a show-down! I'm thrilled at the enthusiasm here and I think this will be a fun project for everyone involved. And yes, I will post a scoreboard for those who would like that information public. I'll be back in two hours with some insights into the campaign and answers to some of the questions posted previously. I can only receive 10 messages on here and my inbox keeps getting full. To contact me, just use my forum name at gmail dot com. Thanks again guys!

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Doceye

13 years ago

I'm with Ray and the others who've lifted their leg on this one. How in the heck does anyone develop the huevos to ask for something of acknowledged value and not pay for it? Or maybe pay for it with some distant, improbable reward?

This stuff flat out amazes me.

And I'm calling CopyNazi out: your analogy of people in an agency having to pitch with no promise of pay is quite flawed. The people at the agency are making a friggin' salary. Where's the connection between that and busting your a*s to give some guy a free swipe file? Remember, Mal ... there's zero payoff here unless you're the one who wins this, ahem, "contest."

I've been doing this long enough to remember that any time the economy takes a dive, someone's out there playing mind games with the "starving artists." I find this Scheiße despicable. How many freebies does this guy give away to the cats who can't find women? Hmm? Seems to me he's expecting the milk of human kindness to bounce only one way ... his.

Also - it's odd these "opportunities" all seem to disappear when the economy's doing good. Now why would that be?

This is usury, pure and simple. True opportunity doesn't come with a negative balance sheet.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Doceye

And I'm calling CopyNazi out: your analogy of people in an agency having to pitch with no promise of pay is quite flawed. The people at the agency are making a friggin' salary. Where's the connection between that and busting your a*s to give some guy a free swipe file? Remember, Mal ... there's zero payoff here unless you're the one who wins this, ahem, "contest."

I had my own agency. So if the pitch didn't fly, it cost me. But I'm used to pitching. Keeps you mean, keen and lean. Yes it may add to his swipe file - but it also adds to your portfolio. What goes around comes around, I find. That, plus "you've gotta be in it to win it".

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Doceye

13 years ago

Points taken, Mal. But I've found that waiting for the "what" to come back around almost always takes too long to keep the lights on and feed the kitty.

And yes, sword fighting out there in the big and bad does have a sharpening effect. If only because most folks tire quickly of being jabbed in the eye repeatedly.

In all honesty, I wouldn't hold this opinion if I hadn't done the same dang thing when I was newer to the game. The problem is, if we accept this opportunity is aimed at less experienced writers, how in blazes do these folks stand a chance in Hades of beating a control this guy admits has been pulling like a train?

I went bit*hy because all these years later I still have a real crap*y metallic tang in my mouth for having gone through similar things myself.

Everyone's gotta do what they gotta do. Hope this works out well for all involved.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Doceye

Points taken, Mal. But I've found that waiting for the "what" to come back around almost always takes too long to keep the lights on and feed the kitty.

And yes, sword fighting out there in the big and bad does have a sharpening effect. If only because most folks tire quickly of being jabbed in the eye repeatedly.

In all honesty, I wouldn't hold this opinion if I hadn't done the same dang thing when I was newer to the game. The problem is, if we accept this opportunity is aimed at less experienced writers, how in blazes do these folks stand a chance in Hades of beating a control this guy admits has been pulling like a train?

I went bit*hy because all these years later I still have a real crap*y metallic tang in my mouth for having gone through similar things myself.

Everyone's gotta do what they gotta do. Hope this works out well for all involved.

Dude - we've all been reamed at some time or another. It hurts but you get over it and move on. Thing is - I looked at this vid and thought "I can do better than that". And the funny thing is, if he'd put it up here for a critique I would have given him some advice/my opinion - for nix. There's quite a few things that can be improved. It doesn't daunt me in the least. And it shouldn't daunt "less experienced" writers either. Indeed the latter might belt it out of the park. And good on them if they do.

I'm gonna have a fat guy and a skinny guy hitting on a girl in a club. Rename the product "Excuse Proof Pickups" and they...Oh hang on...bit confused.

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Doceye 13 years ago

"I'm gonna have a fat guy and a skinny guy hitting on a girl in a club. Rename the product "Excuse Proof Pickups" and they...Oh hang on...bit confused."

Doh! (hard slap to the forehead)

See, you went ahead and helped the guy anyway. Five'll get you ten that becomes the new name of his product.

And to think everyone shakes and shudders like the Cowardly Lion when you're around. Stuttering and mumbling you're a cantankerous, judgmental, quick-to-anger old codger. But I've always known you had a heart o' gold.

Hip hip for our beloved shark hunter.
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- Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago
  
  Whispers...
  
  Can I give the contenders a copywriting/marketing tip on all this.
  
  From what I understand in the dating/seduction game the idea is to get the girls number.
  
  Fair enough.
  
  But then you've gotta call her (she's probably completely forgotten you) and you have to start the "pitch" all over again.
  
  Desperately trying to remind her who you are. You're just a voice on the phone (no visuals or touch) and she's probably very keen to get rid of you - on the hurry up.
  
  And...
  
  How many chaps aren't as nervous as hell making that call.
  
  So...
  
  Why not get the girls to call you?
  
  Give them an irresistible "pitch" and a humorous card with your number - making absolutely sure they can't forget you. And are achingly intrigued and gagging (sorry - should have censored that bit) to discover more about you.
  
  Sit back and wait for the calls.
  
  So much easier - and much more effective than a pocket full of numbers.
  
  Cos when the phone rings and you hear her sweet voice - bang!
  
  You're on!
  
  (don't share this unique strategy with anyone else)
  
  Bet the person who uses it wins the competition by a country mile.
  
  Steve
  
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  ewenmack 13 years ago
  
  You sly fox Steve.
  
  Team Steve has just amped up the ante on this one.
  
  Ewen
  
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DavidG

13 years ago

Someone needs to make a show out of this thread immediately.

regZ

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Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago

Wouldn't it be cool to make this a sub forum.

And chart the progress.

Or at the very least keep bumping it.

Steve
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dancaron

13 years ago

I'm putting together a docket that will contain the product, testimonials, the control, additional swipe, and some notes about the target market and good hooks.

For anyone who wants to chat or do a call, my skype handle is: calldancaron

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Ray Edwards

13 years ago

Just for the record, I know Dan Caron and he's a "copywriter's copywriter." If you can knock off his control, that's money in the bank. With or without he $10K. Just the bragging rights alone can get you gigs with people who know the game.

That being said, there IS $10K on the table.

I think this is a great opportunity.

If I wasn't so dang busy, I'd do it myself.

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abugah

13 years ago

Just wondering....
Is it just a healthy debate or deep hatred for some copywriters? Why the showdown? What value does it add? Perhaps I am poor at observing. If that is so, I rest my case and leave you with these quotes...

1. ''Before impugning an opponent's motives, even when they legitimately may be impugned, answer his arguments''. -Sidney Hook

2. ''I've had a few arguments with people, but I never carry a grudge. You know why? While you're carrying a grudge, they're out dancing''. -Buddy Hackett

3. ''Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute''.-Josh Billings

4. ''Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one''.-Marcus Aelius Aurelius

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Pusateri

13 years ago

Originally Posted by abugah

Just wondering....
Is it just a healthy debate or deep hatred for some copywriters? Why the showdown? What value does it add? ]

I thought this was a good, lively exchange. A little sturm und drang sharpens everyone's wits.

I didn't detect any real hatred in this thread. I jumped into the fray because I thought Dan was being disrespectful to copywriters in general and Raydal specifically. Dan says he meant no disrespect and I accept that I misread him.

Copywriters can be prima donnas. Especially the men. I'll include myself in that category.

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Steve The Copywriter

13 years ago

I've been surprised just how magnanimous the 3 main contenders have been about this.

Even Mal wished everybody good luck.

Steve

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Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago

Top Secret Progress Report...

Bruce has already written 7 excellent headlines – with absolutely no sign of any bad temper in them – what an achievement.

Mal – is writing every possible way of saying - "Dudes - How To Get Hot Women To Give You The Best B/Job …Ever!"

Mark – is really enjoying researching the Kuma Sutra translating the words and doing some rather interesting graphics.

Steve
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- Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter
  
  Mark – is really enjoying researching the Kuma Sutra translating the words and doing some rather interesting graphics.
  
  Steve
  
  Mine was finished in 3 1/2 hours.
  
  And since yesterday...
  
  ...another 5 pieces of sales copy for $197 each have been completed.
  
  Thanks
  
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  Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago
  
  Mark,
  
  Have you ever considered writing copy a bit faster?
  
  Clients are waiting - they haven't got all day... they want it done now.
  
  Steve
  
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  Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago
  
  I'll be on it dreckly.
  
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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter

I've been surprised just how magnanimous the 3 main contenders have been about this.

Even Mal wished everybody good luck.

Speaking for myself, I think it's fun... Good healthy competition. It's exciting to go head to head with good copywriters and see where you stand. It also takes cojones because of the potential to bomb publicly.

I have no way of knowing who is participating other than those that have stated so publicly, but I suspect there are some real persuaders in the bunch. The results should be interesting.

I've got to warn you guys though... I'm thinking a little outside the box on this one to increase my odds of kicking your collective asses

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The Copy Nazi Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

I've got to warn you guys though... I'm thinking a little outside the box on this one to increase my odds of kicking your collective asses

"Thinking outside the box" hee hee
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NickN

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

Speaking for myself, I think it's fun... Good healthy competition. It's exciting to go head to head with good copywriters and see where you stand. It also takes cojones because of the potential to bomb publicly.

I'm in a good situation in regards to that. If my copy bombs, people will be like, "No surprise there. He's a noob."

But if my copy converts, people will say, "Who is that stud, and where did he come from?"

I've got nothing to lose, really.

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DavidG

13 years ago

Is it wrong to say that copywriters to me are one of the most respectable people in IM?

After watching the exchange earlier in the thread, I thought it would end up getting shut down with multiple infractions that follow.

Instead it turned into a Holmes and Moriarty scene.

regZ

Originally Posted by abugah

Just wondering....
Is it just a healthy debate or deep hatred for some copywriters? Why the showdown? What value does it add? Perhaps I am poor at observing. If that is so, I rest my case and leave you with these quotes...

1. ''Before impugning an opponent's motives, even when they legitimately may be impugned, answer his arguments''. -Sidney Hook

2. ''I've had a few arguments with people, but I never carry a grudge. You know why? While you're carrying a grudge, they're out dancing''. -Buddy Hackett

3. ''Silence is one of the hardest arguments to refute''.-Josh Billings

4. ''Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one''.-Marcus Aelius Aurelius

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racso316

13 years ago

Entertaining thread. I gotta check it out and see who wins this, if any. I have my money on ... dammit Steve

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arfasaira

13 years ago

Ooh this is so exciting!!!

Last couple of days I've been checking in on the forum JUST for this thread!

not sure who to hedge my bets on...

Ewan - loving the commentary - keep it going!

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JohnWiz

13 years ago

The Copy Nazi's Chicken Ass WSO Copy will always have a special place in my heart lol.

Yes Sir, I'm voting for you

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The Copy Nazi Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by JohnWiz

The Copy Nazi's Chicken Ass WSO Copy will always have a special place in my heart lol.

Yes Sir, I'm voting for you

Really? I'm going in a different direction with this one. And doing the V/O myself - Aussie accent and all. Bit of work in it. Few days.

Oh if you liked the Chicken Ass you'll appreciate this Colombian Hemorrhoid billboard -

Watch Subtle have some fun with that one.
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davemiz

13 years ago

guys...

Dans in my niche... i can attest, his offer is solid, they get traffic and he's a baller.

Think about this for a moment... why should someone pay for copy that doesn't convert? (not saying anyone here specifically just in general)

as a product owner, he's taking almost all the risk here.

he's paying for the copy, he's paying to have the video done (gotta be recorded, edited, video synched)... then pay for the traffic to test.

think about it... you're a writer who's being paid for performance.

what if your writing doesn't perform?

he can't use the stuff he just paid for. to him, its worthless.

Then what?

Granted, you're taking the time to write it, and thats worth something to you, but your job is being paid to perform. Like a salesman in a way.

in sales, we work on commish... you produce, you get paid... if you don't produce, you ain't getting paid.

he's saying if you've got the chops to do it, and you think your writing converts, then give it a whirl.

if not, its not for you.

no need to get angry and pissy... just shows lack of professionalism.

Dan if you get anyone good to beat it, lemme know... i need to bump up my vsl conversions on cold traffic too. :-)

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MikeHumphreys

13 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

Granted, you're taking the time to write it, and thats worth something to you, but your job is being paid to perform. Like a salesman in a way.

in sales, we work on commish... you produce, you get paid... if you don't produce, you ain't getting paid.

he's saying if you've got the chops to do it, and you think your writing converts, then give it a whirl.

if not, its not for you.

no need to get angry and pissy... just shows lack of professionalism.

Dan if you get anyone good to beat it, lemme know... i need to bump up my vsl conversions on cold traffic too. :-)

Well, speaking of sales professions... many of them that are straight commission only attract newer sales people. It's the same reason why those same jobs have a high turnover rate.

The sales people with serious chops tend to gravitate towards sales positions where they get paid a salary and commission or a draw (basically an advance against their future commissions) and commissions.

For top-notch copywriters, it's a sellers market. We get more potential clients approaching us each month than we could possibly write for. For example, over the last 5 years alone I've had numerous clients hire me for 12 month guaranteed legal contracts, just to make sure that I have time each month to write/rewrite all of their marketing. I'm not saying that to brag... it's actually a pretty common pattern with top-notch copywriters to be partially or completely booked for months in advance.

And no disrepect meant to Dan but out of every 100 offers like this floated out publicly... about 99 of them are people who have no money, little or no marketing skills, and quite often have little or no integrity about keeping their end of the deal after the copywriter delivers.

Until some other well-respected copywriters spoke up and vouched for Dan's credibility, he wasn't a known figure among most of the group here (even me). Hence the wide-ranging skeptism about his contest and offer.

Mike

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dancaron

13 years ago

Dockets have been sent out. Deadline is March 20th. Let the games begin!

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davemiz

13 years ago

bruce good points... then again... he wouldn't put up 10k to the winner if he wasn't serious...

but then again, this IS the internet... lol.

best of luck guys.... can't wait to see who wins.

I might have to hire them afterwards!

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Jeff Walker

13 years ago

Interesting thread... I've known Dan for five or six years. Worked with him on a couple of different multi-million dollar launches. He's a gangster.

- Jeff

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tomokun

13 years ago

Yeah, I'll give this a shot too... depending on some details.

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CharismaticMannequin

13 years ago

Just thought I should let you guys know...I'm jumping in on this one. You've been warned!

Haha, good luck to everyone! I'm not Mal, Mark or Bruce, with decades of experience, but I can bring my own!

Ben.

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JakeDaly 13 years ago

I bid good luck to everyone involved! I'd throw my own hat into the ring if I wasn't such a God-damned pussy. Errr... I mean busy.
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Danielle Lynn

13 years ago

Well, I've enjoyed the lively debate.

When it comes to doing spec work for a well-endorsed marketer, it's always fun to see what's left over when the dust settles.

Frankly, this sort of thing rubs my competitive spirit the right way. If I had the time, I'd throw my hat in the ring.

...Also I'd need to buy a hat.

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Steve The Copywriter

13 years ago

....a few people might be breathing a sigh of relief that Danielle hasn't got a hat.

Some of the best copy I've seen for the dating/seduction game has been written by top notch lady copywriters.

Makes sense - because they know what works.

Steve

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Mr. Subtle

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter

Some of the best copy I've seen for the dating/seduction game has been written by top notch lady copywriters.

Makes sense - because they know what works.

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Raydal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

So in other words this website should shut down?

How To Meet Men

What about all those lady magazines with all those
articles about how to meet men?

You mean to say that men are that simple?

-Ray Edwards

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Mr. Subtle 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

What about all those lady magazines with all those articles about how to meet men?

You mean to say that men are that simple?
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videolover7

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

So in other words this website should shut down?

How To Meet Men

What about all those lady magazines with all those
articles about how to meet men?

You mean to say that men are that simple?

-Ray Edwards

Ray,

There are two cultures.

One culture is where a man respects women and waits until the wedding night to consummate his marriage to the woman he loves, cherishes and hopes to spend the rest of his life with.

The second culture is where a man is only concerned with himself and doesn't particularly care what he has to do or say to get what he wants from a woman.

Writing copy for the two groups is vastly different.

VL

Thanks
3 replies

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Daniel Scott

13 years ago

Originally Posted by videolover7

Ray,

There are two cultures.

One culture is where a man respects women and waits until the wedding night to consummate his marriage to the woman he loves, cherishes and hopes to spend the rest of his life with.

The second culture is where a man is only concerned with himself and doesn't particularly care what he has to do or say to get what he wants from a woman.

Writing copy for the two groups is vastly different.

VL

Indeed. After all, it's not like a woman ever wants to have sex before marriage. </sarcasm>

-Daniel

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Raydal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by videolover7

Ray,

There are two cultures.

One culture is where a man respects women and waits until the wedding night to consummate his marriage to the woman he loves, cherishes and hopes to spend the rest of his life with.

The second culture is where a man is only concerned with himself and doesn't particularly care what he has to do or say to get what he wants from a woman.

Writing copy for the two groups is vastly different.

VL

I'm quite familiar with them. I belong to the first.

-Pastor Ray Edwards

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Originally Posted by videolover7

There are two cultures.

One culture is where a man respects women and waits until the wedding night to consummate his marriage to the woman he loves, cherishes and hopes to spend the rest of his life with.

The second culture is where a man is only concerned with himself and doesn't particularly care what he has to do or say to get what he wants from a woman.

Writing copy for the two groups is vastly different.

Yeah. So is the money. You write for the first, I'll write for the second. Let's see who gets rich first.

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davemiz

13 years ago

LOL... sorry steve... not sure what dating offers you're talking about but the biggest dating offers (men meeting women) have been written by men... i know this for sure.

oh and they don't know what works... (I can write a whole book on this topic alone)

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Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago

Dave,

I was thinking of Kezia Noble from the UK.

Steve

P.S. Bet all the contenders are now busy googling her name...lol
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Danielle Lynn

13 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

LOL... sorry steve... not sure what dating offers you're talking about but the biggest dating offers (men meeting women) have been written by men... i know this for sure.

oh and they don't know what works... (I can write a whole book on this topic alone)

I have to agree with you - If you asked a girl how to pick up women, most would simply rattle off their general 'boyfriend wish list' (be nice, open doors, etc) - all the things that make it easy for the guy to get shelved into the friend zone.

But with all due respect to the fine gents on this thread: woman, man - this should make no impact.

It's about the ability of the copywriter.

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Bruce Wedding 13 years ago

I don't doubt a woman could write a successful letter in this niche. I wrote a kickass letter for the SAHM crowd, in a female voice.
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davemiz

13 years ago

LOL... steve, she worked for a pickup company my buddy owns... i wouldn't say she's a player in the niche.

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Steve The Copywriter 13 years ago

Originally Posted by davemiz

LOL... steve, she worked for a pickup company my buddy owns... i wouldn't say she's a player in the niche.

Well, she's doing Ok on amazon with a couple of rave review books.

And "sell out" seminars in the UK.

Plus she looks absolutely gorgeous - which is a bonus lol.

Steve
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clzd

13 years ago

How long will the test run before a winner is determined?

-A

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dancaron 13 years ago

Originally Posted by clzd

How long will the test run before a winner is determined?

-A

That all depends on the DIFFERENCE between the performance of the VSLs. This is one of the most misunderstood aspects of split testing, but also the most important...

Example:

TEST ONE
Advertisement:A gets 1,000,000 views and 10,000 sales (1% conversion)
Advertisement:B gets 1,000,000 views and 9,999 sales (1% conversion)

TEST TWO
Advertisement:A gets 10,000 views and 100 sales (1% conversion)
Advertisement:B gets 10,000 views and 200 sales (2% conversion)

As you can see here, more data (which usually means more time) does not necessarily reveal a winner (if the performance of the two ads is neck and neck). But if the performance is significantly different (1% vs 2%) you can come to a statistically significant conclusion much quicker.

So the length of the test will depend on the differences between the performance of the VSLs. I wish I could give you a more specific answer, but to do so would be off-base.

- Dan
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davemiz

13 years ago

keep us posted on how things go... curious to hear...

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dancaron

13 years ago

getting some pretty hot copy so far...

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Doceye 13 years ago

Now Dan, the copy's supposed to make the dames hot, not you.

Doc
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Sean Fry

13 years ago

Updates!!!

[ 1 ] Thanks
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NickN 13 years ago

I emailed Dan two days ago, but no response yet.

I'm dying to know the results... but that's probably because I'm in the competition.
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Ken Hoffman

13 years ago

I should probably do this, but I won't. I've bought nearly every product in this niche. So I'd be a great candidate.

Here's the problem. It's bad business. It set's a bad precendent. It gives all the power to the client, and virtually none to the copywriter. It's lopsided.

Here's another issue. I've had conversations with one of the largest personal growth mailers several years ago. (Not NC) He told me that me never had an outside copywriter beat his controls.

When I hear stuff like that it makes me worried. I know that copy is only a part of it. Like if they've got such a strong belief that nothing can knock off their control, sometimes there are other factors at work.

I also know that some of the best copywriters in the world have said they won't go up against certain other well-known copywriters because, if the copy is at that high of a level already, they know they won't beat them.

I recall Dan Kennedy saying that the only way he was going to beat Halbert was to change something strategic. There's something intangible and unexplainable that makes the copy work so well.

Given that...as they say on the Shark Tank..."I'm Out."

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teldar

13 years ago

Dan,
You hook us on watching this contest and then you go dark. How about an update? Even if the contest isn't done yet, you could at least share some of the data. Also, it would cool to see what each writers content looks like. How about a little sharing?

Thanks

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davemiz

13 years ago

think they just finished recording all the vsl's....

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mrconcdid

13 years ago

[DELETED]

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markpocock 13 years ago

I emailed Dan last week. He was going to start his testing
on Monday - yesterday.
Took a longer time than expected to record and formatt
each VSL.
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- Sean Fry 13 years ago
  
  Well, that was a total waste of time. Dan's not even bothering testing anything.
  
  Lesson learned.
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  Dietriffic 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by lazersgopewpew
  
  Well, that was a total waste of time. Dan's not even bothering testing anything.
  
  Lesson learned.
  
  oops!!
  
  I read the start of the thread and wondered if the control was so good, why not pay someone to do animation for it.
  
  Thanks
  
  Signature
  
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  Weight loss/fitness marketers earn 75% per sale with... The Fat Reversal Formula
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dancaron

13 years ago

Update: Split test has been running for a while now. However, there is not enough data with which to draw any conclusions. With that said, I do believe an outside copywriter will win the prize money. I certainly hope so. In the near future, I am going to pare off the bottom third (worst performers). When there are definitive results, I will post them on this thread. But right now, positions are still changing, and I don't want to needlessly get anyone's hopes up. I don't check Warrior all that often. If anyone who participated in the contest wants to speak with me in the mean time, please just email me directly (my handle at gmail). When the dust settles, there are some interesting lessons here regarding the copy (and the structure of the videos) that I think will be valuable to us all. I plan on outlining a few of those insights here as well. Thanks again to all the copywriters who participated in this contest.

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Sean Fry

13 years ago

I've only seen one other video other than the control which was up for maybe a day, and I've been checking almost daily. This was more than a month ago. How exactly are these being split tested?

I suspect this thread would've disappeared had I not bumped it. Not a single email update, just...silence.

Not enough data? Come on....

Thanks
2 replies

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RickDuris

13 years ago

Originally Posted by lazersgopewpew

I've only seen one other video other than the control which was up for maybe a day, and I've been checking almost daily. This was more than a month ago. How exactly are these being split tested?

I suspect this thread would've disappeared had I not bumped it. Not a single email update, just...silence.

Not enough data? Come on....

Are you saying that graph is your proof of minimal activity?

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Sean Fry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Are you saying that graph is your proof of minimal activity?

No, proof that attractionformula.com gets consistent, decent traffic. Certainly enough to acquire enough data for this contest since everyone sent in their submissions.

Thanks
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goindeep

13 years ago

Im keen

Thanks for the opportunity.

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JakeDaly

13 years ago

Everybody plays the fooooooool. Sometiiiiime.
-The Main Ingredient

Honestly though I visited the site in two different browsers and got two different VSLs. The one I got in IE had a home-made quality to, it, complete with animated sketches and was the best of the 3 that I saw.. I have to assume it was the original.

Although all Dan really did was display everyone's copy as text lines in a video and then recorded his mediocre whiteboy voice over it.. not exactly ideal circumstances for anyone's writing.

It should be noted that I'm white and am well within my rights to refer to Dan's(or whoever he hired) voice as mediocre and that of a whiteboy. Boring-ass whiteboy, to boot.

Thanks
1 reply

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Sean Fry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by JakeDaly

Everybody plays the fooooooool. Sometiiiiime.
-The Main Ingredient

Honestly though I visited the site in two different browsers and got two different VSLs. The one I got in IE had a home-made quality to, it, complete with animated sketches and was the best of the 3 that I saw.. I have to assume it was the original.

Although all Dan really did was display everyone's copy as text lines in a video and then recorded his mediocre whiteboy voice over it.. not exactly ideal circumstances for anyone's writing.

It should be noted that I'm white and am well within my rights to refer to Dan's(or whoever he hired) voice as mediocre and that of a whiteboy. Boring-ass whiteboy, to boot.

Just to clarify, that's Paul Janka (the creator of the product) doing the voiceover, not Dan. And you were supposed to make the video yourself with the text and you had the option to either do the voiceover yourself or have Paul or even a female do the reading. I believe the submissions will go up against the text version of the control, not the animated one.

[ 1 ] Thanks

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MikeHumphreys

13 years ago

Originally Posted by lazersgopewpew

I've only seen one other video other than the control which was up for maybe a day, and I've been checking almost daily. This was more than a month ago. How exactly are these being split tested?

Lazers,

I don't know Dan and I'm not involved in the contest at all.

But I do have a multi-variate testing script that I've been selling for several years now.

With my script -- and it's not the only one that has this feature -- it tracks unique visitors and shows them the same page on each visit.

The reason being if you're testing something like different offers, then you want the same offer being shown to the same person on a repeat visit.

It's possible that Dan's testing script is showing you the same VSL on each visit you make and not showing any others.

The only way to determine if that's what is happening is to clear your browser cache and cookies (doesn't work with all testing scripts) OR to access the site from a different IP address with a clean browser cache.

Hope that helps,

Mike

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

It's possible that Dan's testing script is showing you the same VSL on each visit you make and not showing any others.

The only way to determine if that's what is happening is to clear your browser cache and cookies (doesn't work with all testing scripts) OR to access the site from a different IP address with a clean browser cache.

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your input.

I'd love to hear from ANYONE that has seen any copy other than the original or the video scribe letter.

Most of us understand about cookies and IP addresses. I've PERSONALLY looked at the site from 4 different computers on 5 different IP addresses in 2 different countries. I've also had PMs from 3 Warriors, 2 in OTHER countries.

Nobody, not one person, has seen anything but the video scribe sales letter.

At this point, I don't really give a $hit, it's ancient history, but quit trying to make excuses. Personally, I regret my involvement and my encouragement of others in this affair. You can be damn sure it won't happen again.

I never granted copyright to my writings delivered to Dan. I formally and publicly withdraw from any contest. Furthermore, I do not grant permission to anybody to use the copy I wrote for "The Attraction Formula", for any reason whatsoever. It is mine and I retain full copyright.

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Raydal

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding

I never granted copyright to my writings delivered to Dan. I formally and publicly withdraw from any contest. Furthermore, I do not grant permission to anybody to use the copy I wrote for "The Attraction Formula", for any reason whatsoever. It is mine and I retain full copyright.

Bruce,

Hope that you didn't act too fast. Suppose that you found out that
your copy was/would've been the winner?

Well, ... water under the bridge I guess.

-Ray Edwards

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

Suppose that you found out that
your copy was/would've been the winner?

-Ray Edwards

You can't do anything about the past Ray. What's done is done.

You can live neither in the past nor the future - only the present.

In the moment.

Experiencing the now.

It's what you do in the here and now which matters...

...everything else is by and by.

Life only belongs in the now.

Mark Andrews

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CharismaticMannequin

13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

You can't do anything about the past Ray. What's done is done.

You can live neither in the past nor the future - only the present.

In the moment.

Experiencing the now.

It's what you do in the here and now which matters...

...everything else is by and by.

Life only belongs in the now.

Mark Andrews

Thought your writing seemed familiar, Eckhart Tolle!

Ben.

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Doceye 13 years ago

And this, dear friends, is why you don't (ever, ever) write for free.

I don't know Dan at all, and maybe he's a good guy, but when there's this kind of cacophony over even the legitimacy of this "contest," well, something's amiss.

I respect everyone's opinion here, but after nearly 30 years of professional, paid writing experience, I regret and resent the few times I ever did it sans pay. Or on the come, for promised ducats down the road ... that never materialized.

Life is a card game, give all (or even most) of your cards to your table mates at your peril.
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dancaron

13 years ago

You are correct "lazersgopewpew." It's all an elaborate hoax.

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Sean Fry 13 years ago

Originally Posted by dancaron

You are correct "lazersgopewpew." It's all an elaborate hoax.

Your sarcasm doesn't make you look good. Weeks and months of silence, no one sees any other videos being tested, no email updates...save the attitude for another "challenge" of yours.

I do think your original intentions were probably sincere, but this challenge probably got sort of "pushed aside" after you likely shelled out a small fortune for the whiteboard animation.

Because even if another piece beat your control, you'd have to pay for another whiteboard animation, right? Why run any VSL with simple text these days when video scribing clearly outperforms? This would be very expensive.

Seriously, just don't bull**** anyone when you say you were split testing all along when you weren't. Be upfront.
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Dean Jackson

13 years ago

Wow, considering the folks that vouched for his credibility I was hoping for a good competition. I'll keep an eye out for the test letters, but so far nothing... and I live in Australia. I've checked it a few times now and through a few different VPN's from different countries.

- Dean

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ThomasOMalley

13 years ago

Just as I thought...this guy is never going to pay anyone. If you think he is going to choose and pay a winner, then you believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny too.

[ 1 ] Thanks
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NickN 13 years ago

OK, I got on my girlfriend's laptop last night, and the VSL was different from the hand-scribed one that shows up on my computer. No foolin'.

I'm remaining optimistic about the contest.
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- NickN 13 years ago
  
  PS - I just visited the site on my computer, and yet another VSL shows up.
  
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Ross Bowring

13 years ago

I've seen all 10 + entries up.

When you find one, after you clear your cookies, change the numeric value in the web address from "07" to "06" and so forth... and hey presto, another video appears.

--- Ross

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

My God...some of you guys...straight out of the school of no idea. Look at this misinformed and offensive post -

Everybody plays the fooooooool. Sometiiiiime.
-The Main Ingredient

Honestly though I visited the site in two different browsers and got two different VSLs. The one I got in IE had a home-made quality to, it, complete with animated sketches and was the best of the 3 that I saw.. I have to assume it was the original. Leave it up to you mediocre WarriorForum "copywriters" to not even beat a control written by a non-copywriter.

Although all Dan really did was display everyone's copy as text lines in a video and then recorded his mediocre whiteboy voice over it.. not exactly ideal circumstances for anyone's writing.

It should be noted that I'm white and am well within my rights to refer to Dan's(or whoever he hired) voice as mediocre and that of a whiteboy. Boring-ass whiteboy, to boot.

Some genius called Jake Daly.

Mate you have no idea what you're talking about. Dan is a copywriter. And a good one at that. As for the V/O - again you have no idea.

Anyone else want to put their foot in mouth?

Thanks
1 reply

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JakeDaly

13 years ago

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

My God...some of you guys...straight out of the school of no idea. Look at this misinformed and offensive post - Some genius called Jake Daly.

Mate you have no idea what you're talking about. Dan is a copywriter. And a good one at that. As for the V/O - again you have no idea.

Anyone else want to put their foot in mouth?

Mal, please visit attractionformula.com and tell me the 'split-tests' that Dan created even have a rat's chance in hell of beating the original. Poor quality voice-over, no graphics whatsoever except the text itself(in bland font to boot). I even stated myself that Dan's original copy was really good, animations included.

Really bold of you to stand up and defend the guy when he's clearly screwed over quite a few Warriors willing to write on spec for him. You're a real class-act, Mal. Why don't you tell the story again of how you worked for JWT as a teenager and how for some reason your IM 'launches' and constant surliness somehow make you relevant.. in anything really, copywriting included. I grew up being taught to respect my elders but I mean, Malcolm.. sometimes you're just kind of an ***hole.

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by JakeDaly

Mal, please visit attractionformula.com and tell me the 'split-tests' that Dan created even have a rat's chance in hell of beating the original. Poor quality voice-over, no graphics whatsoever except the text itself(in bland font to boot). I even stated myself that Dan's original copy was really good, animations included.

Really bold of you to stand up and defend the guy when he's clearly screwed over quite a few Warriors willing to write on spec for him. You're a real class-act, Mal. Why don't you tell the story again of how you worked for JWT as a teenager and how for some reason your IM 'launches' and constant surliness somehow make you relevant.. in anything really, copywriting included. I grew up being taught to respect my elders but I mean, Malcolm.. sometimes you're just kind of an ***hole.

He's told you how the split-tests are being run. Go read his reply. The "poor quality" V/O probably works quite well in this case. "Screwed over" quite a few Warriors? Laughable. They knew what the deal was when they entered this comp. Good experience for most of them.

Your post is offensive and demeans you.

Take note cowboy -

With that said, I do believe an outside copywriter will win the prize money. I certainly hope so.

Dan Caron

Seems you're a real legend in this business -

I took this course with Arfa (Arfasaira) back in November and have used both the confidence and information this coaching gave me to help kickstart my own copywriting business.

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

Why bring Arfa Saira's name into disrepute Mal?

You two should solve this privately, not here on the forum.

Mark Andrews

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

Why bring Arfa Saira's name into disrepute Mal?

You two should solve this privately, not here on the forum.

Mark Andrews

How does it bring Arfa's name into "disrepute" as you put it?

Thanks
1 reply

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Mark Andrews

Banned 13 years ago

By association Mal.

Read it again.

Look at what you're saying, although granted it's probably unintentional on your part...

"Seems you're a real legend in this business - "

I took this course with **** (*********) back in November and have used both the confidence and information this coaching gave me to help kickstart my own copywriting business.

Reads as though you're dripping with sarcasm not just to your intended target but also unfortunately towards the copywriter who trained Jake Daly.

Mark Andrews

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 13 years ago

Originally Posted by Mark Andrews

By association Mal.

Read it again.

Look at what you're saying, although granted it's probably unintentional on your part...

"Seems you're a real legend in this business - "
Reads as though you're dripping with sarcasm not just to your intended target but also unfortunately towards the copywriter who trained Jake Daly.

Mark Andrews

That's funny...I ran it past Arfa before your comment.

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1 reply

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Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago

Yeah sure.
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- The Copy Nazi Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mark Andrews
  
  Yeah sure.
  
  Sigh. Spoke to her on Skype at 12:37 Paris time. I would cut and paste the conversation but that would not be cricket.
  
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  1 reply
  
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  Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi
  
  Sigh. Spoke to her on Skype at 12:37 Paris time. I would cut and paste the conversation but that would not be cricket.
  
  Of course you did.
  
  Whatever Mal. Whatever.
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  The Copy Nazi Banned 13 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mark Andrews
  
  Of course you did.
  
  Whatever Mal. Whatever.
  
  Why not just call me a liar? Or better still - ask Arfa.
  
  Thanks
  
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  Mark Andrews Banned 13 years ago
  
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  arfasaira 13 years ago
  
  Now now boys, no need to argue!
  
  For the record:
  
  I DID speak to Mal and cleared it with him.
  
  I teach the marketing side of the business only - with the exception of one student I've taken on this last week, I DO NOT teach my students copywriting!!
  
  Now, put your paws away and go do what your best at - write to sell!
  
  Thanks
  
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dancaron

13 years ago

That's correct Lazers: it is Paul's voice, and the variations are being compared to the text-only control. Sorry for the crack earlier, you didn't deserve that, you've been excited about this contest from the start, and I appreciate your interest. I don't want to get into too much analysis of the videos before the contest is over, because I don't want to skew the test results--this thread already has four thousand views. We use Optimizely as our split testing platform (which I highly recommend). If you are checking for variations, I would try using a Google Chrome Incognito window (which disables cookies). Another reason why variations might not appear is because of disabled Javascript, or ad-blocking browser plugins. Some testing platforms even record your IP address to prevent variations from showing up, but I don't think Optimizely implements this. Split testing software is never 100% perfect in its ability to display variations, and that may be what some people are experiencing.

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Sean Fry

13 years ago

Originally Posted by dancaron

That's correct Lazers: it is Paul's voice, and the variations are being compared to the text-only control. Sorry for the crack earlier, you didn't deserve that, you've been excited about this contest from the start, and I appreciate your interest. I don't want to get into too much analysis of the videos before the contest is over, because I don't want to skew the test results--this thread already has four thousand views. We use Optimizely as our split testing platform (which I highly recommend). If you are checking for variations, I would try using a Google Chrome Incognito window (which disables cookies). Another reason why variations might not appear is because of disabled Javascript, or ad-blocking browser plugins. Some testing platforms even record your IP address to prevent variations from showing up, but I don't think Optimizely implements this. Split testing software is never 100% perfect in its ability to display variations, and that may be what some people are experiencing.

No worries. I apologize for the hostile tone. We all get PMS now and then, lol.

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dancaron

13 years ago

ANNOUNCEMENT: Statistical significance is in! Sean (lazersgopewpew) is our winner! His copy beat the control by a good margin. His video rose to the top on May 20th, and stayed there ever since. I think his friendly tone of voice has something to do with it. The video does not make any wild claims, it's just smooth sailing the whole way through. We'll be sending out his prize money by check next week. So congratulations Sean! The second place video was written by Nick Nordstrom. I think Nick has some excellent structure to his video, and we will be sending him a second place payout of $2000, since we feel there might be some structure worth investigating/testing further. The other videos did not beat the control, although some were close. Thanks again to everyone who participated. I know how hard it is to put together a solid pitch, and I sincerely appreciate the effort. We may host another competition again in the future. If you are interested in participating, drop me an email (my forum handle at gmail.com) and I will add you to the competition mailing list. You can see the winning video at attractionformula.com.

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RickDuris

13 years ago

Congratulations Sean! You too, Nick!

You should be elated!

- Rick Duris

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KingOfContentMarketing

13 years ago

Wow, congratulations, to Sean and Nick--huge win!

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Rezbi

13 years ago

That's a good ad.

I listened to almost all of it... until I realised I'm not even interested in the product.

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NickN 13 years ago

Yeah, I'm a happy camper right now.

Congrats to Sean!

Dan is a sweetheart and a pleasure to work with.

This might seem cheesy, but I want to thank all the copywriters here for all the amazing advice they give. You can seriously get a whole copywriting education on this forum.

So thanks to everybody!

Sincerely,

Nick
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- Sean Fry 13 years ago
  
  Thank you Dan and everyone!!!
  
  I am seriously overwhelmed and speechless...I've never won something like this before so this feels amazing! I still can't believe it!
  
  Nick wrote some blistering copy and I remember watching his and thinking "Oh sh*t...this is good."
  
  Talked to Dan on the phone and he's a class act, super nice guy and I'm really thankful he ran this contest.
  
  Glad to contribute to Dan & Paul's business!
  
  - Sean
  
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  Doceye 13 years ago
  
  So I guess I stuffed my middle-aged arse into this barely-there two-piece for nothing, right? Dan's saying the competition's over ... right?
  
  Okay then.
  
  Can someone come over and puhlease unhook my top.
  
  I can't breathe. Really.
  
  Mal? Pusa? Ken? Mark?
  
  Anyone?
  
  I'll let you take pictures.
  
  Thanks
  
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BrianMcLeod

13 years ago

Congrats guys. Great job, Sean.

I'm happy this thread turned its frown upside down.

Best,

Brian

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Rezbi 13 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Congrats guys. Great job, Sean.

I'm happy this thread turned its frown upside down.

Best,

Brian

True.

Besides, if anyone comes on and says anything negative about Sean's copy, you just know it's sour grapes.

Oh yeah, Nick, congrats to you, too.

Niiiice one.
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davemiz

13 years ago

congrats guys.

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Ross Bowring

13 years ago

Sean... you did a great job with the copy, man. Great voice work too. Congratulations.

--- Ross

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Mr. Subtle

13 years ago

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Bruce Wedding

13 years ago

Way to go, Sean. Nice score!

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Sean Fry 12 years ago

Update for those interested: Received the check and the check cleared.

Thanks again Dan.
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TheSalesBooster

12 years ago

Ohhh nice bump. I didn't get a chance to see the results. Glad it worked out in the end. Nice video Sean.

Thanks

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$10,000 Prize To Beat This Control

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