Newbies Looking For Personal Help...Please Read This

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

3. Go to Google and look up your problem. I don't remember the last time
I asked a question here. These days, I just go to Google or use the search
function of this forum and usually find what I'm looking for. You can't
imagine all the info that's out there on just about anything IM related.

Steven,

If people did that half of the present threads would disappear and what would we read then?

And now you'll probably get a load of PMs asking how to search on Google.

Martin

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Steven,

If people did that half of the present threads would disappear and what would we read then?

And now you'll probably get a load of PMs asking how to search on Google.

Martin

Martin, that's a good point. So okay, ask the question publicly in the forum.
There is no need to personally PM somebody when there are plenty of people
here who are capable of giving them answers.

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Arted4Life 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Martin Luxton

Steven,

And now you'll probably get a load of PMs asking how to search on Google.

Martin

Haha, yes this is quite true.
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Laura B

16 years ago

I've had people (not at WF) ask me things about IM that are fairly detailed even though they know I have a product for beginners and am teaching classes about it. It's hard to draw the line of how much to share, because of course, we were all newbies once and it's great to help others freely. But like Steven said, you can't give them all the answers because it takes a lot of time to explain things clearly to someone new. And it's not fair to those who are paying for the information.

Many experienced marketers probably would like to answer those PMs, but it's not practical. They don't have any more hours than anyone else. And I also agree that people don't do much research sometimes before asking questions. That's why I like lmgtfy.com

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Don Schenk

16 years ago

Steven,

What's Google? Is it available in different sizes? I'm short.

:-Don

BTW Maybe this thread needs to be a sticky.

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Dan C. Rinnert

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Don Schenk

What's Google? Is it available in different sizes? I'm short.

Google is like a barcode reader. The Internet is a series of tubes and each of those tubes has a barcode. Google reads those codes to tell you what's on a website.

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Sara Young

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert

Google is like a barcode reader. The Internet is a series of tubes and each of those tubes has a barcode. Google reads those codes to tell you what's on a website.

Oh, now I get it. Thanks!

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Lisa Gergets 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Don Schenk

Steven,

What's Google? Is it available in different sizes? I'm short.

:-Don

BTW Maybe this thread needs to be a sticky.

Dude, don't be dissin' the shorties. LOL I'm only 5' tall...
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The Pension Guy

16 years ago

I am definitely doing something wrong

It has never occurred to me to ask for personal help via PM and, as a consequence, nobody ever started a thread about me...

I feel soooo old-fashioned: just reading the posts, making notes, trying to implement what I learned. Shouldn't I be entitled for "something"?

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Rich Struck

16 years ago

So why make such a fuss over it? If you don't want to help them, hit the delete button and move on. sheesh.

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Allen Graves

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Rich Struck

So why make such a fuss over it? If you don't want to help them, hit the delete button and move on. sheesh.

Yea! What's your problem, dude!

JK

I personally like #2 - get to know the person, maybe see if you can barter something or give them help for helping you.

If anything, just be sweet! I often give advice and secrets to those who come off as genuinely nice people.

Allen

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bryce

16 years ago

I wonder how long it has taken to write 12,500 posts on this forum. I then wonder how many other forums one would belong to, and how much time has been spent writing similar posts there. This time (except the time spent doing something constructive) could have been spent "paying it forward"

I wonder Steven how much money you have made from people new to IM or this forum? How many people have been totally green to the industry, an industry you seem so passionate about, and have paid you to teach them or to provide them a product or service? Without them Steven you would not be the successful, elite superstar you profess to be.

I remember writing to you once asking you to review one of my products. I wrote to 15 other top level posters at the same time with the same request. You were the one who wrote back telling me that you "were not just an ordinary marketer", and how you wish "you could be ordinary again" presumably so that you might have the time to help the 'little' people.

Steven you are ordinary my friend. you just know more about your business than I do, and a lot of others do. At the same time, there any tons of people out there that know more than you do, and I wonder if you ever send them a PM asking for assistance or ideas, or anything else!?

I personally have nothing against you, I dont know you. However I did decide the day that I got your arrogant response back to my request, I would never approach you again, to ask for anything or to buy any of your products. Again, this need not be a loss to you, this was just a natural response to your pompous attitude.

Others may find it charming, some may find it enviable. I find it crude, and unbecoming. I got my reviews, and a lot more besides, and without you. So hey, I guess in part, in this post, you are right......

People, if you are new to the world of Internet Marketing or are in need of help, "Don't send a PM to Steven as he can't help you"

I do wonder though Steven, why you feel you have the ability to speak for others. "Don't PM us" - "We" instead of I, etc etc.

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bryce

I wonder how long it has taken to write 12,500 posts on this forum. I then wonder how many other forums one would belong to, and how much time has been spent writing similar posts there. This time (except the time spent doing something constructive) could have been spent "paying it forward"

I wonder Steven how much money you have made from people new to IM or this forum? How many people have been totally green to the industry, an industry you seem so passionate about, and have paid you to teach them or to provide them a product or service? Without them Steven you would not be the successful, elite superstar you profess to be.

I remember writing to you once asking you to review one of my products. I wrote to 15 other top level posters at the same time with the same request. You were the one who wrote back telling me that you "were not just an ordinary marketer", and how you wish "you could be ordinary again" presumably so that you might have the time to help the 'little' people.

Steven you are ordinary my friend. you just know more about your business than I do, and a lot of others do. At the same time, there any tons of people out there that know more than you do, and I wonder if you ever send them a PM asking for assistance or ideas, or anything else!?

I personally have nothing against you, I dont know you. However I did decide the day that I got your arrogant response back to my request, I would never approach you again, to ask for anything or to buy any of your products. Again, this need not be a loss to you, this was just a natural response to your pompous attitude.

Others may find it charming, some may find it enviable. I find it crude, and unbecoming. I got my reviews, and a lot more besides, and without you. So hey, I guess in part, in this post, you are right......

People, if you are new to the world of Internet Marketing or are in need of help, "Don't send a PM to Steven as he can't help you"

I do wonder though Steven, why you feel you have the ability to speak for others. "Don't PM us" - "We" instead of I, etc etc.

Bryce, you want to call me pompous and arrogant and a whole lot of
other names, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion of me.

But until you're in the shoes of somebody who has X number of hours in
a day and the demands for his time from people exceed those hours,
you have no right to judge me or anyone.

I hope when the day comes that you are extremely successful (and I
hope and pray that you are) and you get countless PMs and emails from
people each day who want your time, gratis, that you're able to manage
that time better than I and everybody else who has only been blessed
with 24 hours in each day.

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Tina Golden

16 years ago

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by TMG Enterprises

Anyone who thought this was a post saying people don't have time to help newbies should read it again. Steve's OP talks specifically about someone expecting the help and getting upset when others didn't answer him within his timeframe.

If you've been part of this forum for any length of time, you had to have seen the element who think that you owe them something. Or they want everything handed to them because if you don't, you must be a fraud.

I've seen Steve and many other long time Warriors bend over backwards for newbies on this forum but no one has the right to demand their help.

Tina G

Thanks Tina, but it's cool. People are allowed to think what they want
and feel what they want.

There will always be those who feel that we "owe" them our time simply
because they ask for it.

That's just the way the world is.

After a while, you get used to it.

The purpose of my post, however, was simply to show newbies that
there is a better way to go about it that might actually bring them
better results.

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bryce

16 years ago

Steven,

Thankyou for your response to my post. I would like to repeat though "Personally I have nothing against you, I don't know you" - My opinion as you put it, is not 'just' my opinion, and it was in direct relation to your 'attitude' when you wrote to me. I have also noticed this attitude in posts that you make on this forum, and I find it hard to see too many others with that attitude. This is not a dig at you, more a dig at the way you present yourself, which I guess indirectly, is a dig at you.

You are a smart man so you know where I am going with this. Sure, as others above may have stated, you have probably helped countless people here as your 'thanks' would suggest, but then you put yourself out there to do that. By being a member here and availing yourself to the members, you should expect people to contact you.

To put yourself on some sort of pedastal, and publicly infer that you are a "notch above the rest" is arrogant! To say that you are no longer an "ordinary marketer" is pompous. To simply respond with a "Sorry I dont have the time" is honest and enough! I didnt "call you names", I used descriptive terms to express the way you come across. There is a massive difference.

As far as me being successful enough one day to deal with large numbers of emails, and PM's, well I do average 20 or 30 PM's a day, and consistently deal with hundreds of emails a week, from people who have paid me nothing. My friend personally answers around 300 people every day, between himself and his assistant, all people who have paid him nothing. I am a member of many forums, and I manage a kids misic career, and I run a household, my own forum, many websites, and a few client's portfolios. I still find time to help those when they need it. And I am not a christian!

In your original post, you clearly speak for others, as if you are part of this elite group of masterminds who are beyond the little people. This is rediculous, and again arrogant. Remove the internet my friend and you are no better than the rest of us. And I again ask you......

Do you ever PM people who are known to be better than you, and ask them for help, assistance, or for ideas?

Honestly mate, I have nothing against you. You are a person just like I am, and in some areas in life, I would undoubtedly be better than you. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. I just know how to be courteous, and respectful of others, and it is something you would do well from learning.

You could have simply said in this post. "I dont want any more PM's from people expecting me to help them. My time is too important and too short for that, and I would appreciate your understanding on this matter"

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Bryce, you want to call me pompous and arrogant and a whole lot of
other names, that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion of me.

But until you're in the shoes of somebody who has X number of hours in
a day and the demands for his time from people exceed those hours,
you have no right to judge me or anyone.

I hope when the day comes that you are extremely successful (and I
hope and pray that you are) and you get countless PMs and emails from
people each day who want your time, gratis, that you're able to manage
that time better than I and everybody else who has only been blessed
with 24 hours in each day.

Thanks
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sbucciarel

Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by bryce

You are a smart man so you know where I am going with this. Sure, as others above may have stated, you have probably helped countless people here as your 'thanks' would suggest, but then you put yourself out there to do that. By being a member here and availing yourself to the members, you should expect people to contact you.

And why exactly should he expect that, unless it's about a product he is promoting? When people have the time to help, they normally respond in a thread and help. Do you think he owes you his time?

Originally Posted by bryce

To put yourself on some sort of pedastal, and publicly infer that you are a "notch above the rest" is arrogant! To say that you are no longer an "ordinary marketer" is pompous. To simply respond with a "Sorry I dont have the time" is honest and enough! I didnt "call you names", I used descriptive terms to express the way you come across. There is a massive difference.

Sounds to me like you just called him arrogant, simply because he doesn't have the time to be your free tutor.

Originally Posted by bryce

As far as me being successful enough one day to deal with large numbers of emails, and PM's, well I do average 20 or 30 PM's a day, and consistently deal with hundreds of emails a week, from people who have paid me nothing. My friend personally answers around 300 people every day, between himself and his assistant, all people who have paid him nothing. I am a member of many forums, and I manage a kids misic career, and I run a household, my own forum, many websites, and a few client's portfolios. I still find time to help those when they need it. And I am not a christian!

Bravo ... I'd rather spend my time on my business correspondence and duties, and walking my dogs and gardening, but if you want to sit around and answer emails all day, that's your choice.

Originally Posted by bryce

In your original post, you clearly speak for others, as if you are part of this elite group of masterminds who are beyond the little people. This is rediculous, and again arrogant. Remove the internet my friend and you are no better than the rest of us. And I again ask you......

Do you ever PM people who are known to be better than you, and ask them for help, assistance, or for ideas?

Personally, I never do. That's what Google and all the millions of pages on the Internet are for. I am responsible for my knowledge or lack of knowledge, not someone else. Sounds like you want to take the easy way out and use other people's time for your gain, and it sounds like you expect that the time be given to you graciously simply because you want it.

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bryce

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

And why exactly should he expect that, unless it's about a product he is promoting? When people have the time to help, they normally respond in a thread and help. Do you think he owes you his time?

1. Because he knows that people are able to via the cpanel settings
2. Because he has been on this forum a very long time, and knows what to expect
3. Because he does sell product and information here

and just to clarify, this post is not about "me" - I didnt ask, nor do I expect anything!

Sounds to me like you just called him arrogant, simply because he doesn't have the time to be your free tutor.

Then get a hearing aid, I said his attitude was arrogant, in other words, the way he presents himself. I said nothing about the reason for the arrogance, and again this is not about me.

Bravo ... I'd rather spend my time on my business correspondence and duties, and walking my dogs and gardening, but if you want to sit around and answer emails all day, that's your choice.

I do that as well, as you will see from my post. Nowhere did I state I sat around all day answering emails. I allocate a portion of my time every day to do that.

Personally, I never do. That's what Google and all the millions of pages on the Internet are for. I am responsible for my knowledge or lack of knowledge, not someone else. Sounds like you want to take the easy way out and use other people's time for your gain, and it sounds like you expect that the time be given to you graciously simply because you want it.

this wasnt directed at you, it was a question asked of Steven. And if you are trying to tell me you have never PMed or emailed anyone you respected to ask for some help, I dont believe you!

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sbucciarel

Banned 16 years ago

Originally Posted by bryce

this wasnt directed at you, it was a question asked of Steven. And if you are trying to tell me you have never PMed or emailed anyone you respected to ask for some help, I dont believe you!

Not directed at me, but I do business here as well and I think your attitude is arrogant. I don't care if you believe me or not. I am a self-taught person. I learned everything I know by reading, whether it be technical manuals or online. When people have helped, it has been in a thread and they freely gave their time to respond, not because I persoanlly badgered them via private pm and expected them to respond, simply because I didn't have enough courtesy to look up the answers via Google. The simple fact, as you say, that I respect them is the reason that I would not impose upon them, particularly when information is so readily available.

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Do you ever PM people who are known to be better than you, and ask them for help, assistance, or for ideas?

Let me answer this question and then address one of your comments.

The only people I PM (which is close to never) are people I know personally
who have already said to me, "PM me any time you need something."

These people know who they are. I will leave it at that. And for these
people, I will take time out of my day to help because they have been
kind to me.

Unfair?

Maybe, but again, I don't have the time to help the many people who
contact me day after day.

And, if you read my original post (which obviously you didn't quite get
my point to) I have no problem with a person actually contacting me. If
I can't help, I can't help. What I have a problem with, as I stated, is
people PMing me and telling me how disappointed they are that they
don't get responses to their requests as if they are owed something.

This is what I have a problem with, not the actual asking for help.

Most people, not all, but most, I will respond back to them at least, as I
did this last person and tell them that I just don't have the time.

The only people I won't respond to at all are the ones who just joined
the forum, have almost no posts at all, have contributed next to nothing
to this place and expect me to sit down and help them setup a business.

I mean, can we at least be a little real here?

Now, let me address your remark about me putting myself up on a
pedestal.

I do not put myself up on a pedestal.

Stating a fact that I am not an ordinary marketer is a fact, not a boast.

I stopped becoming an ordinary marketer the day people saw that I had
thousands of articles all over the Internet and started getting dozens of
PMs and countless emails a day asking for my help.

The fact that John Doe doesn't have to worry about replying to 20 to 30
people a day, minimum, and can just go about doing his business, does
make me different from him. My life is different. And for you or anybody
to expect that I have to conform to your expectations of me just because
I make $X a month is ludicrous.

This is the same mentality that I can't stand about people who expect
celebrities to be available to them 24/7. Hell, these people can't even go
to the supermarket without being hounded by photographers.

The cost of being a star (which I am not)?

Bull. I don't buy into that way of thinking and never will. We all deserve
our privacy and our time to ourselves. These people put in their time
making their movies or whatever, and they get paid for doing that...not
for giving up every minute of their life to every photographer and reporter
who wants a pint of their blood.

I am no different. I owe my time to the people who purchase my products
and services...not to every person who feels that they are entitled to my
time just because they think I can help them just because I have some
success, success that is quite relative next to somebody like a Frank Kern
or a John Reese.

If these guys were active on this forum and were getting countless PMs
each day do you really think that they would answer any of them?

They'd never get anything done.

And again, if you read my original post, that is not what I have a problem
with. What I have a problem with is the entitlement mentality that these
people have who then complain when they don't get the help they want.

So I simply made some suggestions on how to get your question
answered.

The post was actually meant to be a positive one, but you choose only
to focus on the negative. That's fine. It's your prerogative. As far as I'm
concerned you can think I'm the biggest scum sucking pig on this planet.

It doesn't change the basic premise of the point I was trying to get
across. So in case it wasn't clear, let me summarize.

1. Nobody has a right to demand anybody else's time unless they pay for
it.

2. There are alternatives to contacting people personally to get your
questions answered, one of them simply being make a post at the forum.

I firmly stand behind these two points regardless of what you think of me
as a person.

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Lance K

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

The post was actually meant to be a positive one, but you choose only
to focus on the negative. That's fine. It's your prerogative. As far as I'm
concerned you can think I'm the biggest scum sucking pig on this planet.

It doesn't change the basic premise of the point I was trying to get
across. So in case it wasn't clear, let me summarize.

1. Nobody has a right to demand anybody else's time unless they pay for
it.

Exfrigginactly!

Try getting free info out of a lawyer, doctor, etc. If you succeed, you have either established a relationship with them which warrants a little free advice or caught them in a moment of sainthood.

It is NOT the NORM.

BESIDES...

If you truly see them as the expert that you would like to get advice from and you're serious about doing something with that advice, then paying for it shouldn't be a problem.

Even if you have to scramble to come up with the money.

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sevenish

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Lance K

Try getting free info out of a lawyer, doctor, etc. If you succeed, you have either established a relationship with them which warrants a little free advice or caught them in a moment of sainthood.

In a community sort of setting it happens all the time. I've gotten all sorts of great actionable advice from doctors, lawyers and even an Indian chief in casual settings such as a dinner party or online advice forum. I'm not exaggerating about the Indian chief either.

On the other hand, in a blatant marketing situation (for example when one is targeting users of an online forum to sell products and/or services) the issue can become somewhat blurry if you don't draw the line between your marketing and your casual information sharing and chit chat. Add to that that , Steven, that you tend to lengthy article-type -- even step-by-step -- posts here and present yourself as someone who helps newbies (and have far more posts here than almost anyone else, including the Admins), the line becomes even less defined.

If you think about it in those terms, maybe it's easier to see why forum members feel that they can reach out to you. Look, if you post a lot to a forum, and you do, you really have to expect some forum members to reach out and communicate back.

Also, given the volume of posts by members selling "shovels in the IM gold rush", it begins to look as though the only methods under discussion here are about MMO ebooks & memberships.

Steven, I don't blame you for needing to take a stand about how you spend your time in terms of private communications with other forum members. No one has the right to your time. It's just that your extravagant posting behaviour might lead many to believe that your availability is greater than it actually is. I think your own behaviour has led to others feeling that they can reach out and communicate with you privately.

I hope you will take this response in the spirit in which it is given.

Best wishes, always.

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Lance K

16 years ago

Originally Posted by sevenish

In a community sort of setting it happens all the time. I've gotten all sorts of great actionable advice from doctors, lawyers and even an Indian chief in casual settings such as a dinner party or online advice forum. I'm not exaggerating about the Indian chief either.

On the other hand, in a blatant marketing situation (for example when one is targeting users of an online forum to sell products and/or services) the issue can become somewhat blurry if you don't draw the line between your marketing and your casual information sharing and chit chat. Add to that that , Steven, that you tend to lengthy article-type -- even step-by-step -- posts here and present yourself as someone who helps newbies (and have far more posts here than almost anyone else, including the Admins), the line becomes even less defined.

If you think about it in those terms, maybe it's easier to see why forum members feel that they can reach out to you. Look, if you post a lot to a forum, and you do, you really have to expect some forum members to reach out and communicate back.

Even so, you shouldn't expect that if you call that doctor, lawyer, chef, etc. outside of the "community setting" and ask for 1-on-1 help that you'll get it free of charge.

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

This reply is to Susanne and Bryce.

Susanne, what I'm about to say may surprise you.

I come across as elitist or whatever to Bryce. Well, guess what? If that's the
way I come across then that's the way I come across. There is no right or
wrong when it comes to perception. You can't change the way people look
at things, unless you yourself choose to change the way you put yourself
out there.

There is an old saying, "Where there is smoke, there is fire."

If this is the way Bryce sees me, maybe there is something to it. Not
everybody sees me that way. They are also neither right or wrong. It is
just they way they see me.

It is up to me to decide if I want to be a different kind of person than who
I currently am. Should I decide to stay as I am (my most likely decision)
they Bryce will no doubt continue to see me as he does. That is his
prerogative and pointing out where he may be misinterpreting what I am
saying is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter if I say the sky is blue and he interprets it to mean
that I think everything up there is blue. If that's the way he sees it, then
that's the way he sees it.

If everybody saw people exactly for what they were '"technically" we'd
have no problems in this world telling the "bad" guys from the "good" guys,
but everybody sees things differently.

This is how Bryce sees me.

I actually admire him for just coming out and saying how he feels.

For the rest of you, if you have questions, and this is only a suggestion as
I don't lay down the law for anybody, you might want to try the things I
brought up in my original post including just posting your question in the
main discussion forum.

You'll probably get an answer a lot quicker than waiting for some elitist
person like myself to get back to you.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

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Susan Hope

16 years ago

Actually Steven, no it does not surprise me

You bring up the point of how people view us and how in particular Bryce sees you, well this is how I see you..

As a person pretty much comfortable in your own skin which is a good place to be in my opinion, took me until my mid 30's to start feeling comfortable in my own skin and so it does not surprise me that you say that.

Sue

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

This reply is to Susanne and Bryce.

Susanne, what I'm about to say may surprise you.

I come across as elitist or whatever to Bryce. Well, guess what? If that's the
way I come across then that's the way I come across. There is no right or
wrong when it comes to perception. You can't change the way people look
at things, unless you yourself choose to change the way you put yourself
out there.

There is an old saying, "Where there is smoke, there is fire."

If this is the way Bryce sees me, maybe there is something to it. Not
everybody sees me that way. They are also neither right or wrong. It is
just they way they see me.

It is up to me to decide if I want to be a different kind of person than who
I currently am. Should I decide to stay as I am (my most likely decision)
they Bryce will no doubt continue to see me as he does. That is his
prerogative and pointing out where he may be misinterpreting what I am
saying is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter if I say the sky is blue and he interprets it to mean
that I think everything up there is blue. If that's the way he sees it, then
that's the way he sees it.

If everybody saw people exactly for what they were '"technically" we'd
have no problems in this world telling the "bad" guys from the "good" guys,
but everybody sees things differently.

This is how Bryce sees me.

I actually admire him for just coming out and saying how he feels.

For the rest of you, if you have questions, and this is only a suggestion as
I don't lay down the law for anybody, you might want to try the things I
brought up in my original post including just posting your question in the
main discussion forum.

You'll probably get an answer a lot quicker than waiting for some elitist
person like myself to get back to you.

Anyway, it's just a thought.

Thanks

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avani

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

If everybody saw people exactly for what they were '"technically" we'd
have no problems in this world telling the "bad" guys from the "good" guys,
but everybody sees things differently.

Heh, my thought precisely! While there may be times when you wish you could change someone's perspective about something, most people realize, sooner or later, that it is usually impossible, and would stop wishing/trying/caring (with suitable exceptions, of course).

But to come back on topic - I second the OP, sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I'm new here too, new to the IM arena (and my background is in design/programming/writing hobby-wise, I have a day-job, but looking to make the now-cliche shift to a full-time online - freelancing/marketing career). I haven't felt the urge to send a PM of the "SOS" variety yet - and if/when I do, I would certainly not be disappointed with anyone not responding! I've myself been guilty of not attending to all the mail I get, so - sadly, I understand completely

Also, like has been already pointed out, the search feature is there for a reason, google is a friend, and there's always the "New Post" button.

Cheers,
Avani

Thanks
1 reply

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Sheldon Slononazinski 16 years ago

I get these requests two or three times a month through various channels (it's not tons of PMs filling my inboxes), so I answer them with some tips for getting started and where to get more info that I think would benefit them.

Then one of three things invariably happens.
1. They never reply and disappear
2. They take the ball and run with it. Subsequently, I am happy to answer any other questions they have.
3. They ask me for examples, ask me to read their crap and fix it, ask me to set up Wordpress for them, etc...

If they fall into #3, I have no mercy. They become marks.

I usually start by getting them to sign up for webhosting using an affiliate link so I make $$$ on it. Then I do the same with getting them a domain, steering them to whoever pays me the most. Then I get them signed up for affiliate programs as a sub affiliate (which also allows me to see all the sales they make so I can hijack them if they stumble onto something good). Finally, I harass them with CPA offers that I convince them that they need to participate in. Usually, they stop writing me around then and I never hear from them except to see the occassional sale with them as one of my subaffiliates.

I don't mind getting these requests. 99.999999% fall into category 3.

I've never done it using this Alt so I am not afraid to be honest here. Let this be a warning to noobies.
- Thanks
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bryce

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Let me answer this question and then address one of your comments.

The only people I PM (which is close to never) are people I know personally
who have already said to me, "PM me any time you need something."

These people know who they are. I will leave it at that. And for these
people, I will take time out of my day to help because they have been
kind to me.

Unfair?

Definately not unfair! In fact perfectly reasonable. Think back to when you started out in this business, because that is where the people you are complaining about are right now, did you contact any people in those early days to get help with your business?

Do you believe that if you have a PM enabled facility on a "forum", you are inviting people to contact you? This in itself would indicate that you expect to get some people who will have attitude if you don't respond.

And, if you read my original post (which obviously you didn't quite get
my point to) I have no problem with a person actually contacting me. If
I can't help, I can't help. What I have a problem with, as I stated, is
people PMing me and telling me how disappointed they are that they
don't get responses to their requests as if they are owed something.

This is what I have a problem with, not the actual asking for help.

I agree, maybe I did miss the point a little. If this is what annoys you, then speak for yourself. This is what I had a problem with... You were speaking for others, and as a writer, you must know what that does! Its like you draw a line between the haves and the have nots.

If you are annoyed by people who PM you to tell you how disappointed they are, why isnt it a simple matter (as some here have suggested) to click 'delete' and move on.

Now, let me address your remark about me putting myself up on a
pedestal.

I do not put myself up on a pedestal.

Stating a fact that I am not an ordinary marketer is a fact, not a boast.

I stopped becoming an ordinary marketer the day people saw that I had
thousands of articles all over the Internet and started getting dozens of
PMs and countless emails a day asking for my help.

About the pedastal, I respectfully disagree. By the very nature of your previous activity on this forum, it is very clear you do. You may not see it, but I can't help that. As I said, some people need this "leader" "follower" thing in their life, much like religion. To me, you are just another man, who does his job well, much like millions of others in their chosen fields.

You see, the problem with this statement is that in your eyes, most people who have responded to this thread are nothing more than 'ordinary', and I resent that - not only from my own perspective. Your standard for achieving "extraordinary" status is self professed, and not fact at all. You have defined your own threshold for the criteria to move from one label to another, and most people would have their own ideas on that.

The fact that John Doe doesn't have to worry about replying to 20 to 30
people a day, minimum, and can just go about doing his business, does
make me different from him. My life is different. And for you or anybody
to expect that I have to conform to your expectations of me just because
I make a month is ludicrous.

Steven I dont expect you to conform to anything! You are who you are, as the rest of us are, and that is all anyone can expect. You expect new people to conform to your way of thinking, or this thread would not have started.

This is the same mentality that I can't stand about people who expect
celebrities to be available to them 24/7. Hell, these people can't even go
to the supermarket without being hounded by photographers.

The cost of being a star (which I am not)?

Bull. I don't buy into that way of thinking and never will. We all deserve
our privacy and our time to ourselves. These people put in their time
making their movies or whatever, and they get paid for doing that...not
for giving up every minute of their life to every photographer and reporter
who wants a pint of their blood.

This is a long way from the topic. You are right, you are not a star, and those who call themselves stars, have made a decision earlier, knowing what comes with the territory, to go into that industry. They know the risks to thier privacy, and they accept that the papparazzi are a pain in the ass. Does this stop them from making the decision to make movies?! In some cases the papparazzi are no different from the celebs, and yourself. They take photos that sell because they believe they need to keep the readers happy (their customers), the celebs make millions of dollars a day because they believe they need to keep the movie buffs happy (their customers) and you do whatever you do, to keep your customers happy. Its all the same, just different choices in career path.

I am no different. I owe my time to the people who purchase my products
and services...not to every person who feels that they are entitled to my
time just because they think I can help them just because I have some
success, success that is quite relative next to somebody like a Frank Kern
or a John Reese.

Totally agree!

The post was actually meant to be a positive one, but you choose only
to focus on the negative. That's fine. It's your prerogative. As far as I'm
concerned you can think I'm the biggest scum sucking pig on this planet.

The post is positive. It has allowed people to express themselves. You ahve stated your position on an issue that meant something to you, and you have done that in a public forum. Others including myself have offered their opinions in return, which is the entire concept of a public forum. What is not positive about that.

Steven if I thought for a second that you were (how did you put it) the biggest scum sucking pig on the planet, this is exactly what I would have said to you! I don't mince my words, I say what I mean, and all I have said to you is this; "your attitude has come across (at least to me) as arrogant and pompous" - nothing more nothing less!

It doesn't change the basic premise of the point I was trying to get
across. So in case it wasn't clear, let me summarize.

1. Nobody has a right to demand anybody else's time unless they pay for
it.

2. There are alternatives to contacting people personally to get your
questions answered, one of them simply being make a post at the forum.

I firmly stand behind these two points regardless of what you think of me
as a person.

If this was how it was put initially, I would have totally agreed with you, and there would have been no reason in the world for me to say what I did!

Steven I really have no problem with you as a person. I only take issue with some of the things you say, which tend to belittle others, and it wouldnt matter if it were you, Frank Kern or anyone else for the matter, the same would be said.

Thanks

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Ron.

16 years ago

I have to agree 100% with this. That's pretty much the same impression I got. I have purchased a few of Steve's products and he clearly states to contact him for any questions. I did that a few times and I never once got a response. That speaks volumes.

I don't have a problem with you not answering my questions, my issue is don't say "contact me" in your products if you have no desire to respond back. I guess creating the illusion of "support" is maybe part of the marketing to sell the products.....who know's. But I'll spend my money elsewhere.

Ron

Originally Posted by bryce

I wonder how long it has taken to write 12,500 posts on this forum. I then wonder how many other forums one would belong to, and how much time has been spent writing similar posts there. This time (except the time spent doing something constructive) could have been spent "paying it forward"

I wonder Steven how much money you have made from people new to IM or this forum? How many people have been totally green to the industry, an industry you seem so passionate about, and have paid you to teach them or to provide them a product or service? Without them Steven you would not be the successful, elite superstar you profess to be.

I remember writing to you once asking you to review one of my products. I wrote to 15 other top level posters at the same time with the same request. You were the one who wrote back telling me that you "were not just an ordinary marketer", and how you wish "you could be ordinary again" presumably so that you might have the time to help the 'little' people.

Steven you are ordinary my friend. you just know more about your business than I do, and a lot of others do. At the same time, there any tons of people out there that know more than you do, and I wonder if you ever send them a PM asking for assistance or ideas, or anything else!?

I personally have nothing against you, I dont know you. However I did decide the day that I got your arrogant response back to my request, I would never approach you again, to ask for anything or to buy any of your products. Again, this need not be a loss to you, this was just a natural response to your pompous attitude.

Others may find it charming, some may find it enviable. I find it crude, and unbecoming. I got my reviews, and a lot more besides, and without you. So hey, I guess in part, in this post, you are right......

People, if you are new to the world of Internet Marketing or are in need of help, "Don't send a PM to Steven as he can't help you"

I do wonder though Steven, why you feel you have the ability to speak for others. "Don't PM us" - "We" instead of I, etc etc.

Thanks
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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Ron.

I have to agree 100% with this. That's pretty much the same impression I got. I have purchased a few of Steve's products and he clearly states to contact him for any questions. I did that a few times and I never once got a response. That speaks volumes.

I don't have a problem with you not answering my questions, my issue is don't say "contact me" in your products if you have no desire to respond back. I guess creating the illusion of "support" is maybe part of the marketing to sell the products.....who know's. But I'll spend my money elsewhere.

Ron

Ron, if you contacted me with questions about any product you got
from me and didn't receive a response, then I simply did not get the
email.

I reply to all emails within 24 hours.

PM me the email address you sent the questions to. I will then ask you
to send a test email to see if I am receiving them. There is a good chance
my spam filters are not letting your domain through.

It happens.

** EDIT **

If you were to ask just about anybody here who has purchased anything
from me and sent me a support request, they'll tell you how quickly I
respond.

I felt I had to add this because you essentially attacked my customer
service in a public forum.

Read rule # 1. If you have a problem with another warrior or God, take
it up with them...not here.

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swtp43 16 years ago

Can't get any easier and less stressful as that! Just hit DELETE! I've asked for help and some have responded but I never held any great expectations. I realize it is time consuming and time is our greatest asset and the one in shortest supply. I come here in HOPE of help, not with Expectations of help. If I get what I need here today fine, if not, there are other forums where answers are available. NO BIGGE! < Did I speel that right?
- Thanks
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rhondaklewis

16 years ago

I asked for help once and boy did I get helped. I did do my own research but there were so many conflicting ways to do one thing. I did not know who or what to believe. I was getting frustrated and wanted to throw in the towel. So I mustered up and asked for help. He could have said no and that would have been fine. I hope that someday I will be able to help him like he helped me.

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jay7707

16 years ago

I have searched so many threads on here pertaining to a subject I've needed answers on and the search tool in this forum is better the "Google". Steve, I agree with you 100%

Thanks

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Tracey_Meagher

16 years ago

A few hours ago I may have had a different reaction to this post but I've had almost the exact opposite experience today. It never occured to me to PM any of the successful people on any forum.

But today, a well estatblished name in Internet Marketing bought one of my WSO's. Seeing I had some problems with my delivery set up, he emailed me and offered me access to a one of his fantastic resources that will help me get a right start to my business.

So sometimes those who are successful WILL take the time to help out a beginner if they can. I guess it just feels better for them to do it on your own terms, in their own time.

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hangtimenino

16 years ago

what ever happened to paulo coelho's statement, " the universe will give you what you asked for" - ok totally out of topic. I am just trying to make things cooler, because its heating up in here.:-)

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Ricky Parker

16 years ago

Delete them if you don't wanna respond.

And since ur' such a balla' then just have one of your many assistants or VA's reply for you. Maybe even have them send over a facsimile autographed pic. or something.

Just some suggestions.

Thanks
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Allen Graves

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Ricky Parker

Delete them if you don't wanna respond.

And since ur' such a balla' then just have one of your many assistants or VA's reply for you. Maybe even have them send over a facsimile autographed pic. or something.

Just some suggestions.

Ricky,

You shold have a little cigarette hanging out of PacMan's mouth.

AL

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discrat

16 years ago

To me I really respect the OP and what he has done with helping people in this Forum. That being said i find it ironic that he has only x amount of hours to respond to newbies but yet he has taken time out of his day to Post a Thread about how Newbies should undertsand that his time and ALL the other EXTREMELY successful IMers is limited throughout the day.
Just to much irony there.

Anyway, maybe that Studio Time and writing songs does make your day limited to take time out and help some newbie !!

P.S. In all due respect your definition of EXTREME Success differs from mine. To me 130K a year is NOT extreme Success. Sorry, but in my opinion it is not. And that is pretty much agreed upon by most people who live in the US. It is very Successful and totally commendable and something to modeled after but not extreme.
Now Mike Filsaime is EXTREMELY Successful !!

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Allen Graves

16 years ago

Originally Posted by discrat

To me I really respect the OP and what he has done with helping people in this Forum. That being said i find it ironic that he has only x amount of hours to respond to newbies but yet he has taken time out of his day to Post a Thread about how Newbies should undertsand that his time and ALL the other fabolously successful IMers is limited throughout the day.
Just to much irony there.

Anyway, maybe that Studio Time and writing songs does make your day limited to take time out and help some newbie !!

Would you spend 5 hours today to save yourself 10 hours over the next week? I surely would!

Looks like Steven would too.

Allen

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BrashImpact

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Allen Graves

Ricky,

You shold have a little cigarette hanging out of PacMan's mouth.

AL

Allen,
bwaaa that was funny as hell, RICKY i 2nd that, put a smoke in pac mans mouth, now that would add some James Dean to the Avatar.
Regards,
Robert Nelson
"The Maverick Motivator"

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Ricky Parker

16 years ago

Originally Posted by RobertNelsoninc

Allen,
bwaaa that was funny as hell, RICKY i 2nd that, put a smoke in pac mans mouth, now that would add some James Dean to the Avatar.
Regards,
Robert Nelson
"The Maverick Motivator"

Peer pressure made me do it :p

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Allen Graves 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Ricky Parker

Peer pressure made me do it :p

LOL - awesome.

Of course, I was referring to your sig...but a James Dean look surely never hurt anyone!!!

Allen
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Diver's

16 years ago

Hi Steven, It's true in your circumstances where you received tons of PM every day...you just can't attend them all... i agree with your point and solutions..

but those other marketers who wish to help, why not.. each individuals is different...

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sbucciarel

Banned 16 years ago

I have the same problem, but it is with customers who buy a site from me and don't have the first clue what to do next. To tutor all of them in Internet Marketing, traffic, making sales, affiliate networks and on and on and on would take every bit of my time and leave me no time to take care of my business or actually to do anything else. I even have customers calling me in the evenings to ask questions that could easily be answered by Googling or forums. There is a reluctance for many newbies to take responsibility for their learning the ropes. They place it in the hands of everyone else instead of proactively seeking knowledge. Some of my customers seem to feel that I owe them a lifelong education because they bought a site from me. I normally install their site, change all the ads, give them some tips on where to find info and then try to cut them loose.

Here's a link I suggest giving to newbies. It can be altered to be any question. I love it.
Let me google that for you

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yves 16 years ago

Newbies, you can PM me if you like.

....oh no wait I'm not really all that successful sorry
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Troy_Phillips

16 years ago

I have never pm 'd anyone asking for a favor . I have pm'd a few asking about a service or product but it was usually just a final step in the buying process.

I might find the time to pm more often but I keep having to answer emailed questions on a product I sold 2 years ago for $7 :-). How many times do you have to explain what copy and paste means ?

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thatgirlJ

16 years ago

I get both sides here...I try and answer as many questions as I can, but I'm definitely getting them at a more manageable level than other people are.

Sometimes I think about what it takes to run a successful business, and a lot of that is taking the initiative, and being a "self-starter."

It's probably wrong of me to judge, but someone who isn't able to Google how to do certain things, or look for step-by-steps on YouTube, probably won't go as far as someone who will do whatever it takes to find the information out -- and that doesn't mean just pm'ing or e-mailing someone who might know.

The information is out there

Many people are more than happy to help (including myself!), but there is a point where people have to take responsibility for their own education. Absorb the information whenever and wherever you can -- the greatest thing about the Internet is that you can find out how to do just about anything by using Google, or by purchasing a product.

It's a balancing act between relying on those who are ahead of you in business, and taking initiative on your own.

Now, if only admin, Eben Pagan, Frank Kern, Andy Jenkins, Paul Myers, and John Reese wouldn't mind if I just pm'd them with some quick questions

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Tom Brite

16 years ago

I had a PM the other day asking me for help with PPC.

I decided to actually take the time and gave them a 5 paragraph reply (very lengthy) and the guy was very pleased with the reply too.

It did take me a while to write and i could have honestly sold my reply as an ebook on the whole method and made a few hundred if not thousands in sales from it.

However i do completely see your point and i wont be answering every PM i recieve asking for help and advice.

Tom Brite

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Kay King

16 years ago

In your original post, you clearly speak for others, as if you are part of this elite group of masterminds who are beyond the little people. This is rediculous, and again arrogant. Remove the internet my friend and you are no better than the rest of us. And I again ask you......

That would be a group who are masters in their own mind?

Everyone has the same number of hours in a day and demands on that time. If you post as an expert on a topic, not surprising someone might have a question about it.

If someone who is trying on his own asks for help or advice, you can advise them, refer them to someone else or a site that provides what they need or you can say "sorry, don't have time to help with this". If your reply is "about my importance" you may create an unintended impression.

However, asking for a review of a product or ebook is asking for a good chunk of time and no one should be upset if a busy marketer declines a review request.

kay

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Peggy Baron

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Tom Brite

I had a PM the other day asking me for help with PPC.

I decided to actually take the time and gave them a 5 paragraph reply (very lengthy) and the guy was very pleased with the reply too.

It did take me a while to write and i could have honestly sold my reply as an ebook on the whole method and made a few hundred if not thousands in sales from it.

However i do completely see your point and i wont be answering every PM i recieve asking for help and advice.

Tom Brite

I just had a similar situation Tom. I could see that he had asked his question on the forum in several different ways and was looking for some more detailed answers.

So I took the time to write him a lengthy reply. I didn't realize I had amassed so many insider tips and I feel a new product coming on.

He was very appreciative too. I only hope he acts on it.

It also gave me fodder for a blog post. [Leverage everything]

Now having said that, I can't take the time like that every day. And it would certainly make me unhappy if pm'ers suggested that I "owed" them something.

Peggy

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Mac the Knife

16 years ago

I agree actually. I mean, there is certainly the possibility of striking up a convo with someone and seeing where it leads, but honestly, it can be downright IMPOSSIBLE at times to give time to folks just because they feel that others should do it. I actually get skyped about once a week by folks asking me advice about articles...they are not necessarily trying to HIRE me, but simply to glean whatever info they can...if I have time, I may throw a nugget, I have NO PROBLEM with helping others, but when you can't, you can't. The best and most obvious solution is just to give them your hourly rate...I will consult with anyone if they want to pay what I can per hour with my business...most won't, but they may respect the reality of the situation.

Anyways, while I agree with Steve to a large degree, the fact is, human nature is what it is. No amount of wishful thinking, or training, or lecturing, will EVER stop some folks from feeling entitled...and no response you can EVER give will be right...always. The best you can do is do what you think in your heart is right and fair, and move on. Those that get it, get it, those that don't, NEVER will...

Mac the Knife

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Kay King 16 years ago

There does seem to be an increase in entitlement and "I want it now" attitudes. That may be due to the economy driving people into IM who might otherwise not be here. It may reflect the very young age of many new marketers. Don't know.

When I was a total newbie I assumed marketers were accessible. I sent a question by email to Gary Halbert and one to John Reese. Both answered personally and quickly - in detail and in a friendly, open way. Only later did I realize how impressive that was. It gave me a positive view of IM and of those at the "top of the heap".

We don't owe time to anyone but kindness is free. "I'm sorry but I can't help you with this...." says the same as "I'm far too busy to spend time on this" .

kay
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Mike Hill

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I wasn't going to post this but I feel very strongly that this needs to be
said and that new people at this forum need to hear this.

I just got a PM from a relatively new member here who wanted some info
on quite a number of things. It would have taken a great amount of time
to answer all the questions in detail.

That's not what bothered me. What bothered me is this.

The person said that they contacted several "successful" members here
and a few didn't respond, to which he said that he was very disappointed
that they didn't.

Why is it that people feel that they have a claim to our time just because
they want it?

You need to understand something. Some of the members of this forum
who are successful get tons of PMs daily. If we answered them all, we'd
never get any work done and we'd end up without a business.

It isn't fair to us or our customers to give our time to strangers when
our first priority is to the people who have purchased our products and
services. If they can get the same treatment having purchased nothing,
why would they even need to? They might as well just PM some big shot
at this forum and get their help for free.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a hard nose on this but it isn't fair for you
to expect us to help you. I don't mind somebody writing to me and
saying that they understand if I don't have the time. But to express
your disappointment that people don't get back to you, people who don't
know you from a hole in the wall, that's very unfair.

Okay, so what's the solution to this problem, because I understand you
need help and don't know where to turn?

Here are some suggestions.

1. Read the threads that have been started at this very forum. If you
have a question on a product like RAP or Market Samurai, there is a very
good chance a thread was started, possibly in product reviews.

2. Build relationships with people. Instead of just asking for help, here's
a novel approach. How about PMing the person and asking how you can
help them. If you have a skill, who knows, maybe somebody can use
your help.

3. Go to Google and look up your problem. I don't remember the last time
I asked a question here. These days, I just go to Google or use the search
function of this forum and usually find what I'm looking for. You can't
imagine all the info that's out there on just about anything IM related.

Sorry if I'm sounding insensitive, but nobody here owes anybody their
time unless they've paid for it. If we gave our time to everybody who
just wanted it, we'd never get anything done.

Okay, I've given you solutions to your problem.

Use them.

Amen, I'll drink to that one Steve...

You didn't come across too hard at all - just something that needed to be said in public

Mike Hill

Thanks

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Josh Semke

16 years ago

If you're this type of person, maybe this will help you find your answers.

Google has a neat feature where you can search the content on the indexed webpages of a site. For instance, on the search bar type in the following:

site:warriorforum.com "subject here"

That will give you the results for any indexed pages on Warrior Forum containing whatever you typed inbetween the quotations.

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Jeremy Kelsall 16 years ago

I dunno about this one...

Sure, some people do have an entitlement attitude and I don't much care for them. However, there are some that will send a well intentioned PM or even email just looking for advice or something real quick that I'm not going to shoot a link back to them and say " here buy this"...

I guess I'm still fresh enough into it to remember people helping me out and giving me some nudges in the right direction.
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pearlydean

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Josh Semke

If you're this type of person, maybe this will help you find your answers.

Google has a neat feature where you can search the content on the indexed webpages of a site. For instance, on the search bar type in the following:

site:warriorforum.com "subject here"

That will give you the results for any indexed pages on Warrior Forum containing whatever you typed inbetween the quotations.

Great tip Josh this will save me a lot of time when I need to find something.

Love this thread too - I like it when we humans can discuss things heated or not as it shows what we are capable of - free thinking! Try doing this in China!

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Russ Reynolds 16 years ago

Hey Steven,

I like Sylvester's response but it is too much work. Try this:

Keep this little message in a notepad somewhere and use it to quickly respond to those pm's:

'Thank you for contacting me. Clearly there is not enough time to answer all the pm's I get n a day - I would never have time for my business.

My current consulting fees are $200/hr with a 30 minute minimum. If you are interested, please paypal the required amount to youremail@paypal.com.

Should that not be an option for you, please do an advanced search using my username and you will find a plethora of free information.'

Or you and a bunch of the more successful guys could start a membership site called WarriorNet and charge $197 a month or something and be available to answer questions there.
- Thanks
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promediasys

16 years ago

Why not create a notepad document and place it on your desktop? In it you could put a standard message stating:

"Hello and thank you for contacting me. Unfortunately I receive dozens of PMs everyday and only have the time to answer a select few. I apologize in advance if I wasn't able to get back to you."

To make it even more worth your while (and IM worthy) direct them to a set list of posts you have on different topics or a list of your current products that might help them out.

Time to cut and paste the message into a response? 5 seconds max. Ctrl-V just gets quicker after that. Good karma all the way around.

-David

Thanks
1 reply

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bryce

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Kay King

That would be a group who are masters in their own mind?

Everyone has the same number of hours in a day and demands on that time. If you post as an expert on a topic, not surprising someone might have a question about it.

If someone who is trying on his own asks for help or advice, you can advise them, refer them to someone else or a site that provides what they need or you can say "sorry, don't have time to help with this". If your reply is "about my importance" you may create an unintended impression.

However, asking for a review of a product or ebook is asking for a good chunk of time and no one should be upset if a busy marketer declines a review request.

kay

Totally agree with all you have said Kay!

Originally Posted by sbucciarel

Not directed at me, but I do business here as well and I think your attitude is arrogant. I don't care if you believe me or not. I am a self-taught person. I learned everything I know by reading, whether it be technical manuals or online. When people have helped, it has been in a thread and they freely gave their time to respond, not because I persoanlly badgered them via private pm and expected them to respond, simply because I didn't have enough courtesy to look up the answers via Google. The simple fact, as you say, that I respect them is the reason that I would not impose upon them, particularly when information is so readily available.

Whether or not you do business here, is irrelevant. The thread was originally started by Steven, my response was to Steven and my question was for Steven. Your response was directed at me, as if you were Steven, and I wasnt asking you to clarify anything. There are in the region of 200,000 people who do business here! If I am arrogant in your mind, thats fine by me, I am not here to please you, nor to manipulate you one way or another. Like myself, you are entitled to your opinions.

Thanks
1 reply

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Harvey Segal 16 years ago

Hey Steven

In your first post you said

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

Why is it that people feel that they have a claim to our time just because
they want it?

then a few sentences later

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

I don't remember the last time I asked a question here.

Harvey
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- InternetM39482 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal
  
  Hey Steven
  
  In your first post you said
  
  then a few sentences later
  
  Harvey
  
  A bit off topic, but that's funny!
  
  Thanks
  
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Roger Mayne

16 years ago

I haven't read EVERY post here, just the first few or so.

Surely, if someone like Steven is going to take time out of his day to help someone, it's better for him to help that person publicly (through the forum) rather than by a PM or email? By doing this, he is indirectly helping more than 1 person using exactly the same amount of time. It's just leveraging his time more efficiently.

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Susan Hope

16 years ago

Bryce, having read through this entire thread and your responses I think you still need to re-read some of Stevens post.

One of your main objections to the OP is that he speaks for others and should have just spoken for himself..

Well if you read the part below you will see why Steven ultimately started to speak for other forum members. The pm he received, which prompted this post referred to contacting several other members and then complaining about not getting a response at all from some of them, so yes of course Steven is going to speak for more than just himself in this post.

I also think that you were somewhat blinded by the pm you experienced in the past with Steven and that you therefore read pomposity into the OP that just isn't there, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

That's not what bothered me. What bothered me is this.

The person said that they contacted several "successful" members here and a few didn't respond, to which he said that he was very disappointed that they didn't.

Why is it that people feel that they have a claim to our time just because
they want it?

You need to understand something. Some of the members of this forum
who are successful get tons of PMs daily. If we answered them all, we'd
never get any work done and we'd end up without a business.

Also, I would like to add my own personal experience with Steven and pm's. A couple of months ago now, I thought one of my sites had been hacked, turns out it wasn't but I remember Steven did have this problem (through reading his thread within the forum). So I sent him a pm, I think probably the first time I had ever contacted him in any way to ask for help and for him to let me know what solution to his problem had been. I believe I got a reply from him within about ten minutes, he explained what had happened in his situation and was very nice and polite.

I wanted to share that because when reading this thread and some of the responses in it, it may well look like Steven never answers anyone other than people he knows well in the forum (which is his and anyone else's perogative) whereas, in fact, he does.

For the poeple who pm members asking for help:

To add a reason as to why it would be better in some circumstances to ask your question in the forum (after searching the forum) is that what you may ask and hopefully get an answer to will also help other people who don't like to post in forums but that come here and "lurk" if you like and read and learn but never post.

Sue

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bryce

16 years ago

Originally Posted by SusanneUK

Bryce, having read through this entire thread and your responses I think you still need to re-read some of Stevens post.

One of your main objections to the OP is that he speaks for others and should have just spoken for himself..

Well if you read the part below you will see why Steven ultimately started to speak for other forum members. The pm he received, which prompted this post referred to contacting several other members and then complaining about not getting a response at all from some of them, so yes of course Steven is going to speak for more than just himself in this post.

I also think that you were somewhat blinded by the pm you experienced in the past with Steven and that you therefore read pomposity into the OP that just isn't there, in my opinion.

Also, I would like to add my own personal experience with Steven and pm's. A couple of months ago now, I thought one of my sites had been hacked, turns out it wasn't but I remember Steven did have this problem (through reading his thread within the forum). So I sent him a pm, I think probably the first time I had ever contacted him in any way to ask for help and for him to let me know what solution to his problem had been. I believe I got a reply from him within about ten minutes, he explained what had happened in his situation and was very nice and polite.

I wanted to share that because when reading this thread and some of the responses in it, it may well look like Steven never answers anyone other than people he knows well in the forum (which is his and anyone else's perogative) whereas, in fact, he does.

For the poeple who pm members asking for help:

To add a reason as to why it would be better in some circumstances to ask your question in the forum (after searching the forum) is that what you may ask and hopefully get an answer to will also help other people who don't like to post in forums but that come here and "lurk" if you like and read and learn but never post.

Sue

Hi Sue,

In all honesty, the PM I sent Steven was a very long time ago now, and I was over it in 10 minutes. It isnt just Steven, in fact it isnt even Steven, it is this "Guru", "Elite", "Holier Than Thou" attitude that intended or otherwise, comes across when certain people speak or write. I hate it, and I wish others had the courage to admit the same.

I don't buy into labels in any shape of form, and I have as much respect for any new person deciding to take on this industry for the first time, as I do for the self professed guru who has been doing this for years.

Anyway it seems I have caused enough trouble here for one day, I will leave it at that now

Thanks
1 reply

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Susan Hope

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bryce

Hi Sue,

In all honesty, the PM I sent Steven was a very long time ago now, and I was over it in 10 minutes. It isnt just Steven, in fact it isnt even Steven, it is this "Guru", "Elite", "Holier Than Thou" attitude that intended or otherwise, comes across when certain people speak or write. I hate it, and I wish others had the courage to admit the same.

Yes but my point was that you said you were not happy with the way Steven chose to speak for everyone and you felt he should only speak for himself, I therefore pointed out why his post was speaking for others because of the actual pm that promoted his original post. Your reply here does not address that, so did you re-read the OP?

You are assuming a lot here that "Others" are in fact like you and that they "hate" any holier than thou attitude either intended or otherwise - perhaps "others" don't post this because there simply are not that many "others" who agree with you? I personally like to try and always look at each new post from a fresh perspective not colored by the past, if I can, however, I admit I am "probably" not perfect LOL

Also, not everyone will read things into a post the same way you will, we are all different. I didn't read any holier than thou attitude in Stevens post, I just thought it made sense and that he ought to have added about how it helps others reading the forum if people post their questions in the forum rather than via pm.

I don't buy into labels in any shape of form, and I have as much respect for any new person deciding to take on this industry for the first time, as I do for the self professed guru who has been doing this for years.

I can agree with you there

Sue

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AndrewCavanagh 16 years ago

A funny one I had recently was a question I got in a PM requiring a lengthy response.

I was feeling generous enough to make the response but when I sent it I got a message back saying the members inbox was full.

Kindest regards,
Andrew Cavanagh
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Zanti

16 years ago

I just noticed this thread and wish I would have seen it when it first started. I would have responded immediately. Thank you Steven for starting it.

The person that Steven is talking about is me. There are several assumptions that were made that I would like to clear up.

Because I don't know Steven personally, I introduced myself to him and give him some of my background. I did not come off as needy or desperate. You can be the judge of that later in this post.

I never once asked for his assistance just his thoughts on some products that I am planning to get soon.

I never gave the impression that I was entitled to his time in any way, shape or form. In fact I stated the following

If you're not interested in developing a dialog with me, just let me know, no hard feelings. I will not continue to brother you if that's the case. Just let me know.

I was very respectful in my request to Steven. I did not in any way expect that I was owed anything. Yes, while I am new here and in IM I have had my share of success in my previous career. What I know is that my success was not created by me alone. It came from others. Which is why I give back to those who ask for help. It is just who I happen to be.

I did not expect Steven to take time from his business, family, music creation or video games.

I have done extensive research on this forum, with search engines and by posting my own questions here. I have receive extremely valuable information that I don't think I could have received any place else.

Yes I have pm'ed 3 Warriors in addition to Steven and I have now heard back from 2 of them. The 2 that I have heard back from were gracious in their reply and extremely helpful in helping me to make a decision about RAP and ProFollow. I will also be using their consulting services and purchasing products from them.

Was I disappointed in not receiving a reply, yes I was. Not because I felt entitled but because I had sent a very thoughtful follow-up PM stating that I understood if they were not able to respond. I was disappointed because I sometimes forget that not everyone holds the same beliefs I do, to tell someone that I'm not able to reply but wish them success.

You see, I believe in an exchange in energy. I am not a taker, but a leaver. I give back, not only to those who help me or pay me, but to others when I can be of assistance. No, I don't expect everyone to hold my same beliefs, but if I am not anything, I am a Man of Honor. Everything is not always about making money, or getting paid. More often than not, it is really about giving and having gratitude. That is the belief that I hold, anyway.

Bev Clement said it best as to why I contacted Steven and the few others that I did,

I disagree about posting the question in the forum, because you will get a zillion different points of view.

Last week I had a few people PM asking a specific question, and they all asked the same question. Now you could say put the reply into the forum, and lots will benefit, but the reality is, when I have put the answer into the forum, you get people who have a different view posting and the whole thing gets messy.

When you talk 1 on 1 you don't have to clear out the background noise. You can give your advice and then people can make a decision to accept or reject it.

When you start a thread on a subject, you will have many different people who are in that niche, giving their views or even disagreeing and nobody benefits from it.

PM is always a better way.

One of the things I have learned in my life is; To ask for 100% of what I want and to be prepared not to get it but not take it personally if I don't.

I will never have a problem in going to someone I perceive as knowledgeable or an expert and asking them for their thoughts. How they respond is in no way a reflection on me. I don't judge them if they say no or give no response. It's no different than in sales, when someone tells you no, you may never really know the real reason for the no. It could be that they were just having a bad day, the dog died or they just found out their spouse was having an affair. Or maybe that just didn't want or need what you were selling at that time. You don't take it personally, maybe next week, next month or next year they may say yes.

I have developed some of the most successful relationships in my life because I took the time to either ask or answer someone that I didn't know from a hole in the wall. It usually leads for me anyway, to a dialog and I find out that we actually have a lot in common and there are ways we can both benefit from the relationship.

I really appreciate what Bev Clement, Peggy Baron and Jeremy Keisall and several more have said in this thread.

I will tell all of you what I do expect here at the Warrior Forum: I have met some really great people here and I EXPECT that I will meet many more in the future and develop great relationships with them.

Well, this post has gotten much longer than I expected. I have not made any judgements about Steven or anyone else here, but I have now made some observations about some very interesting points of view. There are three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth. The truth is usually seen when one is able to see things from a different viewing place.

Below are the two PM's that I sent to Steven. I share this so that any who are interested can see exactly what I said.

In Gratitude and Success,

Z

Hi Steve,

We've not formally met, but I have followed a number of your post in different threads. I like the way that you think and from what I can see your integrity.

Just some quick background on me: I spend over 20 years in small business development as a management consultant for a couple of the largest CPA firms in the world, Grant Thornton was the last firm I was with. I was also the Regional Director of the Mi. Small Business Development Center and taught small business development at Wayne State Univ. in MI. Bottom line is I have made millions for many others but not for myself.

In my early career I was an aid to a U.S. Senator for several years. I have also been a martial arts instructor for over 20 years now.

I could go on and on, with stuff I've done etc... What I am doing now is what I think is important, not what I did before.

I am about to launch my first site, in a very unique niche that I am considered an expert in. I'm very new to IM but as you can see not new to business and marketing.

Because of some personal and health issues, I'm working on a limited budget. But that has never stopped me before.

Here is where I am. I have written 5 e-books for my niche ranging in page length from 17, 68, 110 and 280 pages. I have over 40 articles already written. (I love writing) I am using clickbank products in addition to my own products on my site, which is almost finished.

So why am I writing to you? I have identified about 5 to 7 Warriors that I think very highly of. I have written to 3 of them so far and received a response back from one. The other two have not responded even after a follow-up message. Since they are very active on the forum I was a little disappointed, but I don't know the reasons why they didn't respond. The one that did respond has been a great help to me in getting started.

My main thing is I don't want to waste resources of time, energy and money getting useless software or other things that sound good but I can do without.

I would like to know from you, your thoughts on the following:

RAP (Rapid Action Profits) (I'm considering a membership to add to my site)

MemberWing (to work with RAP)

Market Samurai

ProFollow

and Cover Action Pro 2. (I want to create my own covers)

Not sure if it matters but I work on a Mac.

If you're not interested in developing a dialog with me, just let me know, no hard feelings. I will not continue to brother you if that's the case. Just let me know.

The way I work is I go to those who I feel are experts and in alignment with my beliefs on integrity.

Steve, thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Z

Thanks Steve for your response. No, I'm not pissed in any way. I totally understand. I learned a long time ago to ask for 100% of what I seek and be prepared not to get it.

I have received very valuable knowledge and information from people I didn't know because I asked. In turn I have also given knowledge and time to those I didn't know.

Sometimes, at least for me, even online I can tell who I can share information with and who I can't.

I do thank you for your response and one day I'll be in a position to pay for your time. No hard feelings at all.

Take Care,

Z

Those are the exact PM's that were sent, you be the judge if I came across as being entitled, expecting a claim to someone's time, or demanding a reply as some have assumed.

I do not have permission to post Steven's reply to my PM, but I'm sure he would if anyone would like to see it. Z

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Kim Standerline

16 years ago

Hi Z

RAP is a good product to get BTW, not sure about the others lol

Cheers
Kim

Originally Posted by Zanti

I just noticed this thread and wish I would have seen it when it first started. I would have responded immediately. Thank you Steven for starting it.

The person that Steven is talking about is me. There are several assumptions that were made that I would like to clear up.

Because I don't know Steven personally, I introduced myself to him and give him some of my background. I did not come off as needy or desperate. You can be the judge of that later in this post.

I never once asked for his assistance just his thoughts on some products that I am planning to get soon.

I never gave the impression that I was entitled to his time in any way, shape or form. In fact I stated the following

I was very respectful in my request to Steven. I did not in any way expect that I was owed anything. Yes, while I am new here and in IM I have had my share of success in my previous career. What I know is that my success was not created by me alone. It came from others. Which is why I give back to those who ask for help. It is just who I happen to be.

I did not expect Steven to take time from his business, family, music creation or video games.

I have done extensive research on this forum, with search engines and by posting my own questions here. I have receive extremely valuable information that I don't think I could have received any place else.

Yes I have pm'ed 3 Warriors in addition to Steven and I have now heard back from 2 of them. The 2 that I have heard back from were gracious in their reply and extremely helpful in helping me to make a decision about RAP and ProFollow. I will also be using their consulting services and purchasing products from them.

Was I disappointed in not receiving a reply, yes I was. Not because I felt entitled but because I had sent a very thoughtful follow-up PM stating that I understood if they were not able to respond. I was disappointed because I sometimes forget that not everyone holds the same beliefs I do, to tell someone that I'm not able to reply but wish them success.

You see, I believe in an exchange in energy. I am not a taker, but a leaver. I give back, not only to those who help me or pay me, but to others when I can be of assistance. No, I don't expect everyone to hold my same beliefs, but if I am not anything, I am a Man of Honor. Everything is not always about making money, or getting paid. More often than not, it is really about giving and having gratitude. That is the belief that I hold, anyway.

Bev Clement said it best as to why I contacted Steven and the few others that I did,

One of the things I have learned in my life is; To ask for 100% of what I want and to be prepared not to get it but not take it personally if I don't.

I will never have a problem in going to someone I perceive as knowledgeable or an expert and asking them for their thoughts. How they respond is in no way a reflection on me. I don't judge them if they say no or give no response. It's no different than in sales, when someone tells you no, you may never really know the real reason for the no. It could be that they were just having a bad day, the dog died or they just found out their spouse was having an affair. Or maybe that just didn't want or need what you were selling at that time. You don't take it personally, maybe next week, next month or next year they may say yes.

I have developed some of the most successful relationships in my life because I took the time to either ask or answer someone that I didn't know from a hole in the wall. It usually leads for me anyway, to a dialog and I find out that we actually have a lot in common and there are ways we can both benefit from the relationship.

I really appreciate what Bev Clement, Peggy Baron and Jeremy Keisall and several more have said in this thread.

I will tell all of you what I do expect here at the Warrior Forum: I have met some really great people here and I EXPECT that I will meet many more in the future and develop great relationships with them.

Well, this post has gotten much longer than I expected. I have not made any judgements about Steven or anyone else here, but I have now made some observations about some very interesting points of view. There are three sides to every story, yours, mine and the truth. The truth is usually seen when one is able to see things from a different viewing place.

Below are the two PM's that I sent to Steven. I share this so that any who are interested can see exactly what I said.

In Gratitude and Success,

Z

Those are the exact PM's that were sent, you be the judge if I came across as being entitled, expecting a claim to someone's time, or demanding a reply as some have assumed.

I do not have permission to post Steven's reply to my PM, but I'm sure he would if anyone would like to see it. Z

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TimCastleman 16 years ago

This time (except the time spent doing something constructive) could have been spent "paying it forward"

Why does Steve have to pay it forward to anyone? I got tons of PM's from people about offline marketing and 97% just wanted free advice, they didn't want to spend money on their business.

Guess what I have spent 10,000 plus on marketing materials, I read or listen to a program a day, sometimes I put in 6-8 hours a day learning and doing.

When I wanted my first product I bought a ready made one for $3,000 cash.

Those two things would put a brown strip down most newbies underwear.

I was listening to Dan Kennedy the other day and he had some great advice - stop with the free advice because:

1. Most people don't use it
2. Most people don't value it

Steve wouldn't be making the money he is if people didn't value what he offered. He doesn't need to pay it forward or build up his karma. He needs to provide for his family and make money. That is what business is about - making money.

You want his help - buy a product from him and then ask a question. But if you don't want to spend anything on your business don't expect Steve or anyone else to give you the keys to castle for free.

Off to pack for an internet marketing seminar. See more time and money invested in my business - you know, like you should do.
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- Russ Reynolds 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by TimCastleman
  
  Those two things would put a brown strip down most newbies underwear.
  
  Tim I am sure your post was full of useful advice but I could not get past this part and see any longer as my coffee is all over my monitor!
  
  Thanks for the laugh.
  
  Thanks
  
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- Sheldon Slononazinski 16 years ago
  
  Hi Zanti,
  
  First we need to get you some good webhosting. I'll give you a link where you should buy it ...
  
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Michael Silvester

16 years ago

Steven,

I have the perfect solution.

Step 1: Compile all the common Questions.
Step 2: Create an ebook or report.
Step 3: Sell it back to them.

Come on man...I thought you were a marketer?

Take Care,

Michael Silvester

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Katie Rich

16 years ago

I would never consider PM'ing anyone to ask for their assistance, I understand that time is limited. BUT, some newbies don't 'get it'.

Because the people on this forum ARE so helpful, and because it's accessable for free, they really do think that everyone here is available to help whenever they ask.

I have had some wonderful responses via forum replies and PM's when I have made a forum post. the responders gave me their time because they wanted to and I truly appreciate it. Sometimes though, when things are really grim, it's easy to forget that successful marketers got there by selling what they know, rather than giving the advice for free.

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mayapearl

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim

1. Read the threads that have been started at this very forum. If you
have a question on a product like RAP or Market Samurai, there is a very
good chance a thread was started, possibly in product reviews.

2. Build relationships with people. Instead of just asking for help, here's
a novel approach. How about PMing the person and asking how you can
help them. If you have a skill, who knows, maybe somebody can use
your help.

3. Go to Google and look up your problem. I don't remember the last time
I asked a question here. These days, I just go to Google or use the search
function of this forum and usually find what I'm looking for. You can't
imagine all the info that's out there on just about anything IM related.

Use them.

I am a newbie and I have avidly been reading as many posts as I can on the subjects that interest me, Google and Wikipedia are great also. It is often in doing my own research that I find the best answers and this means I can compare the different opinions.

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amdkea

16 years ago

Hey Steven, Your post is very helpful for newbies. I know some users are getting a number of PMs everyday but it is hard to respond. So, I agree searching on google might help.

Thanks

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Bev Clement

16 years ago

There is another side to this, and that is what the people do with the information they have received from either a PM or email. Often, I will take a request to email because of the restrictions of the PM, and what I have seen recently has shocked me.

There are still many people who will reply to PMs and give advice.

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Lance K 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

There are still many people who will reply to PMs and give advice.

Absolutely. But the PMs with a tone of desperation & entitlement are not the way to go.

Be polite, be concise, and if you do happen to get rejected don't take it personally.
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ezeey

16 years ago

Helping people publicly will be far more beneficial to everyone in the forum. Sharing is caring.

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ChrisBa

16 years ago

It is very true. Honestly the best thing to do is post the questions on the open forum and if people can they will help. Or they they need help that much join a mentoring program or hire a mentor.

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pearlydean 16 years ago

I thought I would chip in with a couple of quotes:

"Democracy does not guarantee equality of conditions - it only guarantees equality of opportunity" Irving Kristol

"Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment" Buddha

I don't think it really matters what people think of you or your opinions. If you have an opinion then try to make it a positive one where you are adding something of value to a person or a situation. It is easy to criticise but not so easy to look at your own shortcomings first before outlining someone else's.

Is it better to be right about something or to feel good about something?

Peace and Love Warriors!
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Bev Clement

16 years ago

I disagree about posting the question in the forum, because you will get a zillion different points of view.

Last week I had a few people PM asking a specific question, and they all asked the same question. Now you could say put the reply into the forum, and lots will benefit, but the reality is, when I have put the answer into the forum, you get people who have a different view posting and the whole thing gets messy.

When you talk 1 on 1 you don't have to clear out the background noise. You can give your advice and then people can make a decision to accept or reject it.

When you start a thread on a subject, you will have many different people who are in that niche, giving their views or even disagreeing and nobody benefits from it.

PM is always a better way.

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Lance K 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Bev Clement

Last week I had a few people PM asking a specific question, and they all asked the same question.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could save a template response in your PM area.
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yves

16 years ago

When I was new to the forum, it never crossed my mind to PM anyone as my questions were always answered more than satisfactorily in the forum.

However, I will say that I contacted a marketer who I was (and am) subscribed to for a quick question related to a product I bought from him and he actually stated that if it was purchased to email him for some extra info. I didn't receive a reply - nice eh. I contacted him one other time on a separate issue regarding another product I purchased from him and still no reply, you'd think I would have learned!

Obviously I gave up but was a bit gutted at the lack of response but I know he must be extraordinarily busy so no hard feelings.

I suppose it is the luck of the draw sometimes.

Thanks

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timreed

16 years ago

The point of having your own business is leveraging your time for YOURSELF. That doesn't mean you can't help others, by POINTING the way to the answers they need, then you can keep this time to a minimum, and let them spend the time finding it and learning.

Thanks

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timer

16 years ago

I'm with Steve. If you want time and help,pay for it

Thanks

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Allen Graves

16 years ago

I've never had an issue with Steven not responding to any email I have sent him. He is very quick to respond in just about all cases.

******************************

As far as what people will do with your PMs, Bev - I answered a question a "new guy" had not too long ago by sending him my latest newsletter, which is exclusive to my members. Well, about 3 days later, the information was on his blog, proud and bolded like he came up with the answer!

I even outright asked him not to share the information.

******************************

Mayapearl said above that she is a newbie and has learned so much by simply searching this forum, search engines and other sites.

It is at THAT point where if you have a question, you would probably get a response from more holier-than-though marketers, as someone so delicately put it. LOL

By establishing the fact that you are actually trying and putting hard work into your business, the "gu.ru" will be more apt to helping you. If you appear to be looking for a cheap and quick fix, then you probably won't get a good response.

Again, be sweet and personable. Ask if there is anything you could do for them. You don't have to be an expert in IM.

For instance, I am looking to sell some puppies right now...perhaps Steven is looking for a qality pup at a reduced price. Maybe he needs help on how to get from a B flat diminished chord to an A minor without sounding pathetic.

Respectfully,
Allen Graves

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jaypick

16 years ago

Wow. I really have never thought about PMing anybody for help. Whenever I have a question about anything and post it here and I always get lots of very helpful answers and am able to accomplish what I was trying to accomplish. Maybe this individual should try starting a thread with his question first before PMing everyone expecting help. I think Steve is more upset about this person complaining than the pm itself. I'm also sure that a lot of those 12.600 posts were helping someone.

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webmaestro

16 years ago

There are TWO completely separate and distinct aspects to this whole thread that probably need stating since although they've been hinted at, they've not been specifically addressed:

1. PM'ing (several) people whom you know not at all except by virtue of (maybe) having read through a load of other threads on the forum does NOT entitle ANYONE (newbie or not) to EXPECT a response either promptly or ever! To do do so ... well THAT is arrogance.

If a query is urgent and several people are expected to respond then why not just post the query publicly for ALL to see and be able to respond. Surely if it's that important an issue one would WANT as many as possible to opine on a solution? I don't get the lack of logic there in doing anything other.

2. Being "disappointed" in a lack of response to a direct query is in NO way reflective of that/those person/s willingness or otherwise to provide help. An absence of evidence of response is NOT EVER evidence of absence of response. If NO response is received there are countless reasons why that may be so. NONE of which can be claimed as proof of any tardiness on the part of the intended recipient.

Just a couple of simple examples: The person/s PM'd may have been committed to any number of other things - business commitments, a family bereavement, holidays, illness, serious accident etc. etc. Presuming that someone else's time (not to mention effort) is somehow less worthy of being spent as THEY see fit rather than the peron making the demands on their time is once again arrogance - in the extreme. How does the sender KNOW they even received the PM? It could easily have disappeared into a black hole. I remember a personal incident where my boss demanded to know why I hadn't read an email he'd sent (with read receipt requested) - I HAD read it; it required no response but I had all read receipts blocked! Duh! Who was the big assumptive arrogant twerp there then?

Anyone who knows me (that excludes 100% of the members of this forum as far as I know) will know that I am almost always ready to help anyone who asks me. But in similar vein, they will receive extremely short shrift if I suspect that they EXPECT me to help at the drop of a hat, especially if they are strangers to me.

The bottom line here is that NO-ONE EVER has ANY right to EXPECT ANYONE to respond to direct personal requests for assistance unless there is an existing relationship between the two parties. Even then it is questionable. To do so is to display a level of utter arrogance in extremis that is nothing short of jaw-droppingly disgraceful.

Anyone who says that s/he (or anyone else) SHOULD or OUGHT to provide that help ON DEMAND is not only arrogant, but thoughtless, selfish, self-centered and frankly deserves NO help at all because they're too stupid to know what to do with it.

I'm absolutely certain that when a general or specific request for help is made (to the public forum, not by anonymous personal demands), experienced members like Steven (I don't know him from Adam, but I can READ) are clearly MORE than willing to provide helpful information: 12,600 plus posts, 348 "Thanks" and "thanked" in over 600 posts says it all.

Apart from Steven I have deliberately refrained from naming anyone else here - if you feel offended by what I have said then I should keep it to yourself as only you know about it right now. Any public negative rhetoric in response can only serve to condemn you further and show your character in a pretty bad public light.

Best regards.

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Allegro

16 years ago

Guys, seriously. You are flaming for 2 pages now back and forth that a man who has lots of interests (and needs time for them all) said "Who are you to DEMAND my time?! A little bit more respect, my boy!"...

Although I have to say that this "newbs vs established marketers" bashing is an amusing read. Now, if all this surpressed aggressive energy could flow into marketing...

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Audrey Harvey

16 years ago

You know, this issue is not just in IM, it's in life. This isn't at all directed at you, Zanti, but just a general observation.

In some cases, if you give an inch, people take a mile, and it may then be the thin edge of the wedge. The sister of a very good friend needs some documents photocopied and then certified. She has no car, a baby and it's hard getting around. I said to her, "Come to my house, have a cup of tea, I have a copier, and I'm a vet so I can certify your documents". The reply? "Cool, and while I'm there, you can fix my dog's health problems".

If it's feasible, I help people where I can, but it's the assumption that browns me off. I've got a ton on my plate right now so I won't be copying or signing anything because I don't have time to work on her dog's health. It may well make me think twice before offering again.

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Martin Luxton

16 years ago

Zanti,

As a follow up to Kim's post, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many Warriors who could give you a definitive answer about the effectiveness/suitability of the different programmes you mentioned and their comparative usefulness when applied to your business model.

A considered and actionable response to that would require quite a lot of PMing back and forth and at least two or three hours.

Martin

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Wilter Quesada

16 years ago

Why Can't we just all get along, I am new to the forum and I love it how people help each other, I personally I don't PM others warrior because I believed that they are busy people, What I do is I used the search forum to find my answer and most of the time its there if for some reason its not I will start a post, simple and easy, I do believed that other people time has a valued so I don't want to take time out of other people life if they have time to answer a post then they will answer because the have the time not because I request there time, get me, Good.

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Allen Graves

16 years ago

Zanti,

I am sure that it wasn't JUST your PM that set Steven into motion starting this thread. Or maybe it was, I can't speak for him. LOL

As he says above, he gets a ton of PMs. Speaking from the standpoint of someone who also get s a ton of PMs asking for help, it just gets old sometimes...not that I don't WANT to help, but sometimes I need a vacation! LOL

Your PM was probably just the proverbial straw.

With all respect and good luck,
Allen Graves

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Zanti 16 years ago

Allen, thank you for your response. I enjoy and respect the humor and knowledge that you share in the posts that I have read, not just here but in other posts as well. I will be joining your directory and hope that I will be able to provide as high a quality of articles that you exhibit in your writing.

Z
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Zanti

16 years ago

Thank you Martin. I agree with you. I was only asking for his thoughts not an in-depth review.

On one of the programs I mentioned, Steven did share with me his thoughts, "that he like and used the program." On the others he's heard they were good programs. That was all I was looking for and he provided that.

What triggered Steven was that he said that I said, "I was very disappointed that I had not received a reply back." When in fact what I said was " I was a little disappointed." There's a big difference between the two in my opinion.

Steven also stated that I contacted several "successful" warriors. The correct quote should have been "I have identified about 5 to 7 Warriors that I think very highly of." Thinking very highly of someone has nothing to do with their success. There are some Warriors here who are just starting that I think very highly of. It does not have to equate with money.

Words are important and the meanings attributed to word are important.

I still don't see in my PM where I came off as expecting or entitled that he owned me his time.

In his first post in this thread, Steven said,

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a hard nose on this but it isn't fair for you
to expect us to help you. I don't mind somebody writing to me and
saying that they understand if I don't have the time. But to express
your disappointment that people don't get back to you, people who don't
know you from a hole in the wall, that's very unfair.

In my PM to Steven I believe that I said I understand if you don't have the time by saying,

If you're not interested in developing a dialog with me, just let me know, no hard feelings. I will not continue to brother you if that's the case. Just let me know.

Z

Z

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Bev Clement

16 years ago

Another problem with people asking via PM is when a number ask the same question, but they have no real interest in the answer.

At what point does someone say, enough is enough.

Why waste time giving the answers but people don't want to know it because it doesn't fit into their comfort zone.

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Zanti

16 years ago

Two quick things, I have not and will not say anything negative or disrespectful about Steven. I didn't do it in my PM and I've never done it to anyone on this forum.

Tim, what makes you think I have not put money and time into my business? I have and will continue to do so. I would have been very open to Paying Steven for advice, as I have and will pay others for theirs.

It's so interesting the assumptions I see being made here.

Last thing is, I don't should on anyone.

Z

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Steven Wagenheim

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Zanti

Two quick things, I have not and will not say anything negative or disrespectful about Steven. I didn't do it in my PM and I've never done it to anyone on this forum.

Tim, what makes you think I have not put money and time into my business? I have and will continue to do so. I would have been very open to Paying Steven for advice, as I have and will pay others for theirs.

It's so interesting the assumptions I see being made here.

Last thing is, I don't should on anyone.

Z

Zanti, I just want to clarify that I wasn't upset that you PM'd me for
help. I help those I can and those I can't or don't have time for, I don't.

What upset me was that you were disappointed that you didn't get
replies back from some people. This immediately triggered my "entitlement"
radar because I have run into it so many times before. But after reading
your replies here, I can see that this isn't the case with you.

Again, I wish I had the time to give everybody the time they want from me,
but as Martin pointed out, to reply in depth to your inquiry would have
taken hours.

Hope you understand, it was nothing personal.

Thanks

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Droopy Dawg

16 years ago

Just pay it forward when you can man... I'm by no stretch a "Guru", nor do I know as much as many in this IM cummunity, but if someone asks a question or help on a certain topic... I help when I can, and if I don't know the answer I direct them to a source that may be of some help.

You NEVER know when you'll need the help of others... so help when you can. if you can't, then there are ways to say "hey I can't right now".

just my opinion of course.

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Zanti

16 years ago

Thank you Steven, as I said before I have not judged you or taken anything you've said personal. All I was attempting to do was to be respectful and honoring of your time. Trying to share a little of my personal background that I've done very little of here so that you could get an idea that I am an honorable man.

In retrospect, maybe I should have written more to explain where I was coming from. I was concerned that if I did so it would be to long and take up to much of your time.

Thank you for acknowledging that I do not come from a place of entitlement. I'm only trying to do as many here do, create relationships that can be mutually beneficial.

I live my life taking full responsibility for my actions, I don't place blame for my mistakes outside of myself. I own them totally.

I think that your response my be a bit shocking to some here. It is not to me. I truly believe that if you had the time you would have written me a lengthly response. It's just something that you weren't able to do at this time. I fully understand that and you did give me some of your thoughts and I appreciate that.

I have learned a lot from this thread. I thank you for sharing your truth in an honest and open way. That tells a lot about who you are as a man.

It has been interesting for me to read some of the caustic and negative assumptions that some have made about me, but I do not take it personal.

When people can have conversation that are from a place of beauty as you have done above, many of our misunderstanding can and will be solved.

So Steven, thank you again, my Fellow Warrior Brother.

In Success and Gratitude,

Z

P.S. looking forward to working with you in the future.

Thanks

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