I Can Predict Refunds

by Steven Wagenheim 71 replies
Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
the sale will be refunded.

I don't know if it's a language barrier problem (do these people expect the
product to be written in their language) or if it's simply that these countries
are real problems.

We all know that Clickbank won't allow certain countries to sell their products
because of the rampant fraud, so there must be something to this.

So why do they let people from these countries BUY their products?

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, my latest "prediction" just came true. My latest sale from one
of products from 8/6 (only 4 days ago) has been refunded. Kind of tough
to go through a 10 ebook package in 4 days and determine its worth. But
these guys manage to do it, time and time again. Oh, and yes, when the
sale came in on the 6th I took one look and said, "Damn, another refund"

I guess it's the cost of doing business.
#main internet marketing discussion forum #predict #refunds
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  • Profile picture of the author Mers Dalangin
    Why not filter the names and IPs of the refunders? And then, the next time they visit your other sites then they are not allowed to buy or just redirect them to a page saying "Damn, I can't refund because I can't Order!".
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    • Profile picture of the author Tirmizi
      hahahaha ! well you can't pridict it yourself that who will buy or who won't , its an open market, like not all the fingers in your hand are same .. so not every client is the same ... yeah geographically buying and selling trends change.

      But you'll never know someone from a place you never thought was good enough could come in and become a real loyal customer.
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  • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
    the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
    the sale will be refunded.
    I feel your pain, Steven.

    And I bet I could guess which country, too.

    In the case of stolen cards, there seems to be one or two countries that show up a LOT. We monitor these VERY closely on our system.
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  • Profile picture of the author lakshaybehl
    So what are these countries?? I hope not India...
    .
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    • Profile picture of the author TedMarlett
      Hi Steven,

      When I get ready to start advertising and selling something I believe that the countries PayPal does not let use their service may be some of the countries involved, and I will be watching them.

      I don't know yet if the other services that accept payments online are following along the same criteria as PayPal, but it does seem that similar countries are not yet to be trusted.
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      • Profile picture of the author BIG Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author sparrow
          Its the price of doing business

          If you really want to rant you should look into the file sharing sites that are passing out our products free, espeically the WSO's.

          These are the refunders we need to nail down. This is a real problem.

          Real refunds for me are a part of doing business, in fact many of the people in the long run have become loyal customers.

          Ed
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          • Originally Posted by sparrow View Post

            Its the price of doing business

            If you really want to rant you should look into the file sharing sites that are passing out our products free, espeically the WSO's.

            These are the refunders we need to nail down. This is a real problem.

            Real refunds for me are a part of doing business, in fact many of the people in the long run have become loyal customers.

            Ed
            I completely agree with this. THESE are the types of refunds that really get my ire up.
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            • Profile picture of the author Ryan_Taylor
              Unfortunately, that's just the cost of using CB. It's sad, but you have to build returns into your expected revenues when you use them. Returns are inevitable.

              That being said, I have never had a return request with my products that are sold via PayPal. The RAP offer is very tempting.
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        • Profile picture of the author e-mail2u
          Steve,

          My theory is they buy just for the refund, they get a free product in the end. This may be a stupid idea but can you not report a non returned item through your payment processor. If enough people are reporting the same people for non return of the product they might get banned from using that payment processor.
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          • Profile picture of the author bethparker
            e-mail2u, you can't exactly "return" a downloaded product.
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            • Profile picture of the author e-mail2u
              Beth,

              I know you cannot return a digital product, so do the refund buyers. That's why they do it. The reporting them is just for principle.

              One person may make a difference, many people will make a difference. Why let them get away with it, if it happened to you would you let them get away with it... NO
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Want a good laugh?

                Another sale came in, same product at 4:50 PM today. I looked at the name
                and said to myself, "Great, another refund on the way."

                At 5:03 PM, I received an email from the person.

                "This is not what I expected. I want a refund."

                It's a 10 ebook package that takes 5 to 7 minutes to download at least.

                He couldn't have possibly looked at it.

                Well, he's going to have to write to Clickbank for his refund because I'm not
                making this easy for him.

                I've had it with these crooks and this is why I am done submitting anymore
                products to the Clickbank marketplace for the make money online niche.
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                • Profile picture of the author Jose Delgado
                  Steven that sucks. lol

                  Which countries are they?


                  .
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                  • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                    Originally Posted by tigres409 View Post

                    Steven that sucks. lol

                    Which countries are they?


                    .
                    I'd rather not say because I don't want people to think that I am prejudice
                    because I am not. I am a very giving person to all nationalities. I don't care
                    if you come from Mars. But I can't help but notice that there is rampant
                    fraud among some countries, which is why Clickbank won't accept affiliates
                    from those countries.

                    Now I understand why.
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                • Profile picture of the author Ryan Gabriel
                  I had my first refund request the other day.

                  The person bought every single product I offered, even products that overlapped with each other, ie-> He buys my article pack, review site and the package that has both of them bundled together. For every single product I offer. WTF?

                  Then this person asks for a refund. Well, I can tell you it's going to be a very difficult process for this person. I'll refund it, because that's what I promise, but it will not be easy. (A legitimate refund request would be treated completely differently, obviously).
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                  • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
                    So ... do we think these people are just out to get something for free?

                    Or are they spying so they can reverse-engineer / "steal" your content and recreate it for their own profit?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Jeannie Crabtree
                      Brian, I don't think most refunders outside the IM niche are looking to reverse engineer.

                      I sell an ebook that many computer savy young people want, in the self improvement nice. I get about a 5% refund request. Most of those I would say just want the ebook free and know they can get the refund and keep the ebook and bonuses.

                      Jeannie
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                      • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
                        This question is for everyone/anyone that wants to answer:

                        What are the most common reasons given for a refund request?
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                        • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
                          I wonder how often you induce the refund by just having a negative outlook
                          on it from the beginning?

                          You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

                          Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

                          9 times out of 10 huh?
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                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                            I wonder how often you induce the refund by just having a negative outlook
                            on it from the beginning?

                            You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

                            Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

                            9 times out of 10 huh?
                            J-Mo,

                            I'm absolutely certain Steve is no racist, dude.

                            I'm also 100% sure he knows his stats.

                            Having said that, 9/10 seems a little high. If that many people in those nations are so dishonest, the prison food much be freakin' delicious.

                            Steve
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                            • Profile picture of the author Jason Moffatt
                              Originally Posted by Steven Fullman View Post

                              J-Mo,

                              I'm absolutely certain Steve is no racist, dude.

                              I'm also 100% sure he knows his stats.

                              Having said that, 9/10 seems a little high. If that many people in those nations are so dishonest, the prison food much be freakin' delicious.

                              Steve
                              I didn't mean to insinuate that Steve was a racist.

                              But making a blanket statement like this is no doubt a racist viewpoint. I admit, it's nearly inevitable in most circumstances, especially when the number back up your frustration.

                              How many of you can say you aren't racist towards Nigerian vendors? Seriously! Almost none of us.

                              However, I'm still saying that I think you can induce more refunds into your life by saying... "Ah shit, another order from India. I bet Lalita Lakshmi refunds".

                              If you say that before it even happens, you might just get what you ask for. That's all I'm saying.

                              Words and belief can be powerful.
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                              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                                Words and belief can be powerful.

                                Jason, I actually used to feel that way. As a matter of fact, one person I
                                met online actually turned me on to the power of positive thinking and the
                                secret and all that stuff.

                                This same person ultimately ended up taking me for $2,500.

                                I try to always look for the good in people, but thinking that bad doesn't
                                exist is, in my opinion, looking for trouble. Truth is, if I can find a way to
                                block sales to these places, I would. But I just don't know how, especially
                                not with a Clickbank hosted product.

                                And yes, the stats are accurate. I find it mind boggling that things can be
                                this bad. I am actually shocked when I see stuff like this because I do try
                                to believe that most people are honest. And I guess considering that my
                                refund rate, even with all this nonsense, is about 8%, that's not too bad.

                                It is, as you said, frustrating. And I guess I'm really just venting a little
                                because when it happens with almost every sale from these places you
                                almost dread looking to see where your sales are coming from.

                                Anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because I've made 20 sales
                                today that I am quite sure won't be refunded.

                                And I guess in the grand scheme of things, that's all that really matters.
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                                • Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                  As a matter of fact, one person I met online actually turned me on to the power of positive thinking and the secret and all that stuff.

                                  This same person ultimately ended up taking me for $2,500.
                                  Steve,

                                  I feel your pain, but damn, that was funny!

                                  Attraction is cool, but they sure haven't got the kinks worked out in the quality control department for a related area: preaching attraction.

                                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                  Anyway, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it because I've made 20 sales today that I am quite sure won't be refunded.

                                  And I guess in the grand scheme of things, that's all that really matters.
                                  Amen, bro.

                                  What other field gives you so much for so little?

                                  The Internet reminds me of nature and farming. You throw out some tiny seeds. You eventually get weeds and bugs, but you also get an awful lot of green stuff.

                                  Michael
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                    Steven,

                                    I don't find India to be any more or less likely than the US or Kanuckistan to be a source of refunds.

                                    Why do I say they're young? Lots of clues. A fair number of interactions with the more obnoxious ones. Do this stuff long enough and you can see patterns.


                                    Paul
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                                    • Profile picture of the author John Ritz
                                      I have the reverse problem, actually. Not that I don't get refund requests, but I don't get very many. Which means I am probably not pushing the sale hard enough, because for every additional 1% in refunds, you'll usually get 2 to 3 times that many in sales.

                                      7% to 12% seems to be the ideal sweet spot, but I'm lower than that.

                                      Ah well, less hassle for me, I guess.

                                      Cheers,

                                      John
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                          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post

                            I wonder how often you induce the refund by just having a negative outlook
                            on it from the beginning?

                            You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

                            Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

                            9 times out of 10 huh?
                            Jason, whatever else you might think of me, I hope you know that I'm a
                            straight shooter and an honest person.

                            I seriously doubt that when I see these names and countries pop up in
                            my Clickbank notifications that the person on the other end senses my
                            negative vibes and says to himself, "He thinks I'm going to ask for a refund
                            so I better do it." While I believe in being positive, I am also a realist.
                            And I didn't start even thinking about these things until one day I went
                            through my refunds and noticed that 90% of all my refunds come from
                            these places.

                            Coincidence? Highly unlikely I would think.

                            And don't get me wrong. I accept this as part of doing business. I'm not
                            going to lose any sleep over it and I'm certainly not going to let them
                            get to me, but my point of this whole post was simply to point out that
                            there will be sales coming from certain places that are more likely to
                            result in refunds than others.

                            If this weren't the case, Clickbank wouldn't ban these countries from
                            selling their products.

                            And I seriously doubt Clickbank has a negative mindset with all the money
                            they're raking in.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Frank Donovan
                              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                              Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
                              the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
                              the sale will be refunded.
                              Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                              I seriously doubt that when I see these names and countries pop up in
                              my Clickbank notifications that the person on the other end senses my
                              negative vibes and says to himself, "He thinks I'm going to ask for a refund
                              so I better do it." While I believe in being positive, I am also a realist.
                              And I didn't start even thinking about these things until one day I went
                              through my refunds and noticed that 90% of all my refunds come from
                              these places.
                              These two statistics aren't necessarily the same. In the OP, the implication is that 9 out of 10 PURCHASES from certain countries result in a refund request, whereas in the second post, it's 90% of all REFUNDS which emanate from these places.

                              You might want to clarify, just so people don't get the wrong end of the stick...

                              Frank
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                              • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                                These two statistics aren't necessarily the same. In the OP, the implication is that 9 out of 10 PURCHASES from certain countries result in a refund request, whereas in the second post, it's 90% of all REFUNDS which emanate from these places.

                                You might want to clarify, just so people don't get the wrong end of the stick...

                                Frank
                                Frank, you beat me to it. I had exactly the same thought going on...

                                I'd buy you a beer if I could!

                                Steve
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                              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                                Originally Posted by Frank Donovan View Post

                                These two statistics aren't necessarily the same. In the OP, the implication is that 9 out of 10 PURCHASES from certain countries result in a refund request, whereas in the second post, it's 90% of all REFUNDS which emanate from these places.

                                You might want to clarify, just so people don't get the wrong end of the stick...

                                Frank
                                Frank, it's both.

                                When I get a sale from one of these countries, 9 out of 10 times that I do,
                                the sale ends up in a refund. Yes, occasionally the sale sticks.

                                Also, if I look at all the refunds that I get from all my Clickbank accounts,
                                90% of my 8% refund rate comes from these countries. I almost never
                                get a refund from somebody in the US or England or Canada.

                                Truth is, if I didn't sell to these countries, I'd hardly have any refunds at
                                all. That's the sad part.
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Instead of injecting a racist mind set, I'd encourage you to be a bit more open about the possibility it's a legit and honest customer.

                            9 times out of 10 huh?
                            I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who knows me that I have a racist mindset, Jason, but I can tell you the worst for me. By a very large margin:

                            Hong Kong and Singapore. Hands down. With HK way in the lead.

                            Followed by parts of eastern Europe.

                            It's nothing like 9 out of 10, but it's so much higher for those areas than anywhere else that it's unlikely to be my imagination. One thing I've noticed about HK and SG is that the problem customers tend to be young. As in, 16 to 20, and usually using their parents' accounts.

                            On the flip side, the legit customers in those countries are among the most polite people you'll run into. If they need help, they ask in professional terms, and they are usually much better about giving the details necessary to fix their problems.

                            A mixed bag, like anything else.

                            Mind you, it may be very different outside of the IM field.


                            Paul
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                            • Profile picture of the author KimW
                              Jason got the concepts of racist and prejudiced mixed up.
                              "How many of you can say you aren't racist towards Nigerian vendors? Seriously! Almost none of us."
                              I'm not at all.
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who knows me that I have a racist mindset, Jason, but I can tell you the worst for me. By a very large margin:

                              Hong Kong and Singapore. Hands down. With HK way in the lead.

                              Followed by parts of eastern Europe.

                              It's nothing like 9 out of 10, but it's so much higher for those areas than anywhere else that it's unlikely to be my imagination. One thing I've noticed about HK and SG is that the problem customers tend to be young. As in, 16 to 20, and usually using their parents' accounts.

                              On the flip side, the legit customers in those countries are among the most polite people you'll run into. If they need help, they ask in professional terms, and they are usually much better about giving the details necessary to fix their problems.

                              A mixed bag, like anything else.

                              Mind you, it may be very different outside of the IM field.


                              Paul

                              Paul, I'm glad you brought this up. My most polite and appreciative
                              customers (the ones who don't refund) come from these countries,
                              especially India. The people from India can teach a lot of folks here in
                              the states some manners.

                              I am no racist, believe me. At 19 I dated an African American (my mother
                              almost had a cow), at 21 I dated a girl from China and at 23, just before I
                              met my wife, I dated a girl from one of the Carribean Islands. I don't
                              remember which one.

                              I love people in general, which is part of the reason why I try to help
                              others as much as I can. But I also don't like being taken advantage of.

                              Paul, you mentioned ages. How can you tell? My Clickbank receipts don't
                              have ages of the customers. Do you collect additional info from these
                              people?
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                              • Profile picture of the author BlogBrowser
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                                • Profile picture of the author Harvey Segal
                                  You are welcome to adapt my suggestion below.

                                  At my forum a ClickBank publisher complained about a refund
                                  request for his fitness training product saying that the
                                  customer had "downloaded all the material even the mp3
                                  audios , everything , literally thousands of pages of
                                  combined content, even pre made diets, workout charts, etc"


                                  I advised him to send the refunder an email saying
                                  "This is an automated message.

                                  Warning - do NOT start the training program until you read
                                  this CRUCIAL information.

                                  Your health is seriously at risk if you don't and in fact we
                                  have had a few deaths from people who failed to observe it"
                                  Then provide a link to a non-existent page.


                                  Harvey
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                                  • Profile picture of the author Andyhenry
                                    Originally Posted by Harvey.Segal View Post

                                    You are welcome to adapt my suggestion below.

                                    At my forum a ClickBank publisher complained about a refund
                                    request for his fitness training product saying that the
                                    customer had "downloaded all the material even the mp3
                                    audios , everything , literally thousands of pages of
                                    combined content, even pre made diets, workout charts, etc"


                                    I advised him to send the refunder an email saying
                                    "This is an automated message.

                                    Warning - do NOT start the training program until you read
                                    this CRUCIAL information.

                                    Your health is seriously at risk if you don't and in fact we
                                    have had a few deaths from people who failed to observe it"
                                    Then provide a link to a non-existent page.


                                    Harvey
                                    Harsh but effective...
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                                    • Profile picture of the author Junkee
                                      If the product is legit and proven then "Harsh" is OK if it's tageted at scam buyers. I'm not selling the types of products you guys are creating but the same exact type B.S. goes on in retail and second hand merchandise sales constantly. I built my auction site store with a good reputation and I'm the "SOLD AS IS" man. Hasn't hurt me a bit to be Harsh as long as it's only with people I know that are "Scammers". I still do steady sales.
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                              • Profile picture of the author mario_a
                                Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                                My most polite and appreciative
                                customers (the ones who don't refund) come from these countries,
                                especially India. The people from India can teach a lot of folks here in
                                the states some manners.
                                Thanks Steven. Your words make me feel proud to be an Indian

                                Regards,
                                Mario
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                            • Profile picture of the author Steven Fullman
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone who knows me that I have a racist mindset, Jason, but I can tell you the worst for me. By a very large margin:

                              Hong Kong and Singapore. Hands down. With HK way in the lead.

                              Followed by parts of eastern Europe.

                              It's nothing like 9 out of 10, but it's so much higher for those areas than anywhere else that it's unlikely to be my imagination. One thing I've noticed about HK and SG is that the problem customers tend to be young. As in, 16 to 20, and usually using their parents' accounts.

                              On the flip side, the legit customers in those countries are among the most polite people you'll run into. If they need help, they ask in professional terms, and they are usually much better about giving the details necessary to fix their problems.

                              A mixed bag, like anything else.

                              Mind you, it may be very different outside of the IM field.


                              Paul
                              Paul,

                              You should've followed Allen's lead, and banned Bev's IP address, too!



                              Steve
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                          • Profile picture of the author Eric Johnson
                            Originally Posted by Jason Moffatt View Post


                            You know, "The Secret" and "Law Of Attraction" type of stuff.

                            9 times out of 10 huh?
                            Sorry but The Law of Attraction seems to me like complete bunkus. I mean as a christian, granted it goes against my beliefs BUT even if I weren't it just seems silly.
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                  • Profile picture of the author LB
                    Let me give you guys some "tough love" regarding the refunding criminals.

                    If you make them jump through hoops to get their refund or ignore them until they contact your payment processor, then you are just giving them more control over you.

                    Once you refund them they are gone for good...you have no more obligation to them ever. You can free your spirit from these energy sucking leeches by simply sending off that refund email and extinguishing them from your life.

                    From a more practical standpoint, if you refuse a refund you risk the chance of chargeback...which is a whole hell of a lot worse than a refund.

                    Additionally, many of these criminals are more than happy to "googlebomb" your search engine rankings, send out spam with your return address, or post false complaints on popular forums.

                    You really have nothing to gain by refusing the refund if it's a digital product and the refund is going to happen anyway.

                    Just give it and move on, it's amazingly liberating.
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                    • Profile picture of the author trafficwave
                      Good point, LB.

                      It took me a while to get to that point, myself. There was a lot of "ego" involved. But the freedom and release that comes from just letting go allowed me to focus on more important (and positive) issues.
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                    • Profile picture of the author Ryan Gabriel
                      Yeah, you are probably right, LB.

                      The reason why it irritates me so much is that, when selling PLR writing and websites like myself, each fraudulent transaction either takes income right out of my pocket or value away from my legitimate customers. I won't let the latter happen, and so I have to eat the lost income from this guy.

                      Oh well, with no delivery cost and very little overhead, I guess it's one of the inherent problems with digital products.
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                • Profile picture of the author Adeel_Chowdhry
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Want a good laugh?

                  Another sale came in, same product at 4:50 PM today. I looked at the name
                  and said to myself, "Great, another refund on the way."

                  At 5:03 PM, I received an email from the person.

                  "This is not what I expected. I want a refund."

                  It's a 10 ebook package that takes 5 to 7 minutes to download at least.

                  He couldn't have possibly looked at it.

                  Well, he's going to have to write to Clickbank for his refund because I'm not
                  making this easy for him.

                  I've had it with these crooks and this is why I am done submitting anymore
                  products to the Clickbank marketplace for the make money online niche.
                  I agree Steven.

                  As much as I used to like Clickbank, serial refunders have really gotten on my nerves.

                  I have already started moving a few products over to accept Paypal only!...and i'm loving it.

                  PDC is going to be another favourite of mine now...so that I can have an affiliate program.

                  Sure, commissions will have to be paid out manually (pain in the butt), but at the end of the day, i'll have that little bit more money too.

                  - Adeel
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                • Profile picture of the author Steve Taylor
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Want a good laugh?

                  Another sale came in, same product at 4:50 PM today. I looked at the name
                  and said to myself, "Great, another refund on the way."

                  At 5:03 PM, I received an email from the person.

                  "This is not what I expected. I want a refund."

                  It's a 10 ebook package that takes 5 to 7 minutes to download at least.

                  He couldn't have possibly looked at it.

                  Well, he's going to have to write to Clickbank for his refund because I'm not
                  making this easy for him.

                  I've had it with these crooks and this is why I am done submitting anymore
                  products to the Clickbank marketplace for the make money online niche.
                  Careful with this Steven, if paypal is involved and too many refund complaints...you run the risk of getting your paypal 'limited'.
                  Just refund, be done with it and move on.

                  -Steve
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                  • Profile picture of the author peteinoz
                    Originally Posted by Steve Taylor View Post

                    Careful with this Steven, if paypal is involved and too many refund complaints...you run the risk of getting your paypal 'limited'.
                    Just refund, be done with it and move on.

                    -Steve
                    Steve, this is the problem, its not his paypal account its CB's So he has no control over the refund process, so his PP account is not in jeopardy
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                    • Profile picture of the author Junkee
                      Nigeria for one. I can get a list of a bunch of countries some sites do not allow. Kinda busy right now but if I think of it in a few days I will get the list and post it.
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                      • Profile picture of the author peteinoz
                        its the same reason sites like Azoogle use geo referring, exactly the same principle..
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                      • Profile picture of the author Junkee
                        Here's some countries everyone should be aware of. I just decided to go ahead and grab the list and get it done.

                        Belarus, Bulgaria, Coute de Ivore, Croatia, Ghana, Hungary, Ibadan, Ivory Coast, Lithuania, Macedonia, Nauru, Nigeria, Oshogbo, Osun, Oyo State, Oyo-state, Romania, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Ukraine, Yugoslavia

                        There's probably somemore countries but I do not have them yet. Surprisingly enough I have sent items to Communist China and all was well.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Mraz
                        It depends on your hosting server. You can prevent unwanted sales from certain geographic areas easily if you have the right tools in your server. Ex, a cPanel feature if you're on a shared hosting environment, or iptables if you're on dedicated server.

                        iptables is a firewall and it's extremely powerful and flexible. Track, block, and hunt.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Kevin Riley
                        Reading through here, I'm perplexed. I don't have any one country that refunds at a higher rate. I have had weird problems with two French customers, a number of strange reasons for refunds from Americans (but that is my biggest market), and not a single refund request from Papua New Guinea.

                        As for singling out Nigerians, two IMers who I've corresponded with a lot are based in Nigeria. One even sent me a real (as in, in an envelope) letter. That was a surprise.

                        Paul mentioned HK and SG, but I've got a lot of customers from those two places and I find them to be great customers. In fact, SG and HK rank amongst my favourite customer bases.

                        Josh, I wouldn't block countries. It's not fair to tar a whole country with the scammer brush just because they have a few more bad apples.

                        Truly, I see no pattern, and I never expect a refund.

                        As for CB customers, compared to my direct PP sales, they do refund a bit more. However, I don't even look at those so it's no skin off my nose. CB is just bonus sales that covers our traveling habit, so a $20 refund means one less slice of Tzwetschge Torte at my favourite Berghaus in the Alps. Moral: Don't rely too much on CB, and don't put all your eggs in their basket.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Glenn Leader
                        This is a timely thread. I've noticed a certain pattern too. Refunds are disproportionate to
                        three countries in my personal experience. A lot of people in this thread suggest you just
                        refund them and move on. But there's more to it than that. Refund percentages affects the
                        possibilities of doing JV's, if you have a high refund rate, it's much harder to get a JV partner
                        to look at your offer.

                        BTW, one of these countries is an English speaking WASP culture, similar to England, so no
                        accusations of racism holds any water here.

                        Glenn
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                      • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
                        Never had any sale refunded from India.. touch wood on that..

                        But romania is one, and Singapore is another for me :-(
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                      • Profile picture of the author jasonl70
                        I use ppc.. I quickly cut out all non-english speaking countries. This cut my ppc in half, and I lost only a tiny bit of sales (maybe 1%).

                        Next, I cut my spam-complaints, unsubs, and refunds in half when I blocked the UK (and they only made up 25% of my list). Every opt-in from the UK was over a $1 net loser for me. I love the UK - I spent the bulk of the 90's stationed there (RAF Mildenhall) when I was in the USAF... but my english mates are a tough bunch to crack

                        All of my 'sob stories' begging for free product come from the US..

                        My most pleasant and enjoyable customers, by FAR??? Australia! It makes me want to move there
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            • Profile picture of the author SunTzu82
              Maybe there's a way to keep these serial refunders from keeping your product after "returning". Have your product on a password protected site and then if they refund; block their password to deny access.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mraz
                Originally Posted by SunTzu82 View Post

                Maybe there's a way to keep these serial refunders from keeping your product after "returning". Have your product on a password protected site and then if they refund; block their password to deny access.
                Problem is, they would have downloaded them all first...
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                • Profile picture of the author sparrow
                  Folks, most of the refunds you see are people sharing your products on file sharing sites.

                  I get emails all the time getting this pointed out to me I saw your product being share here and there.

                  In fact strange thing just the other day I got a customer from one of my products he downloaded from one of these sites.

                  Kind of made up for some of the hassle of seeing my stuff being passed around.

                  Ed
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                  • Profile picture of the author Junkee
                    All this talk about your products getting copied and passed around makes me think of Bill Gates when he first started Microsoft. The software used to be the "holes in the paper schroll" type programming and Bill Gates used to go through all kinds of B.S. with people forging copies and selling the forged copies themselves.

                    I guess it never quits when you can only put your ideas and thoughts on paper or into electronic media form.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Eric Johnson
                    Originally Posted by sparrow View Post


                    In fact strange thing just the other day I got a customer from one of my products he downloaded from one of these sites.


                    Ed
                    Wow, he actually admitted that to you?
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                    • Hmmm, I do know what you mean Steven. I had one customer refund two to three minutes after purchasing. He was also a pirate. He didn't read the terms and conditions properly and didn't know that his PDF was unique to him.

                      Didn't stop the piracy, but the guy was obviously intent on getting his cash back. I think you can stop them getting one with the right legal stuff, but is it worth the effort? I suspect not!
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        • Profile picture of the author peteinoz
          Originally Posted by BIG Mike View Post

          Steve,

          There are free Geo-Targeting scripts out there that allow you to check the location and redirect to an alternate page if you want. If it's consistently from a given area, that's a fairly simple solution to use.

          Yep, what Mike said..

          redirect this traffic to a page where its not so easy to instant refund the same product.

          pete
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          • Profile picture of the author Chris Hunter
            Originally Posted by peteinoz View Post

            Yep, what Mike said..

            redirect this traffic to a page where its not so easy to instant refund the same product.

            pete
            Yes, but can this be done with Clickbank?
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            Ok, sure. You can follow me on Twitter - http://twitter.com/Chris_Hunter ;)

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            • Profile picture of the author peteinoz
              Originally Posted by Chris Hunter View Post

              Yes, but can this be done with Clickbank?

              you put the geo script on your cb sales page, so traffic from se's or adwords will be redirected..

              If the originator comes via the clickbank site, they still have their country of origins IP address.. so yes, they will be redirected to the site/page of your choice.

              note: its not 100% effective, but with time it can get pretty close and would suit a successful cb product..


              cheers

              Pete
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            • Profile picture of the author Jag82
              On a sidenote, Steve...if you are aware of who these pesky refunders are, why not just ban them?

              Do you know you can ban them based on their IP address, domain or email address?

              Sometimes, these people are out to cause trouble. Just not worth pulling out your hair in frustration over them. Just simply have them out of your life.

              Big Mike has a software called "Refund Guard" that does this. I'm a reseller and you can check up more about it here
              => Refund Guard | Stop Serial Refunders COLD through pre-sale management and pre-emptively blocking purchases

              On another note, I definitely have to agree with you that there are a higher proportions of refunders from certain countries. Nothing racist about it though for having this observation.

              Jag
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  • Profile picture of the author imb
    Yes I'm interested to know what countries are these?
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Iser
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
    the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
    the sale will be refunded.

    I don't know if it's a language barrier problem (do these people expect the
    product to be written in their language) or if it's simply that these countries
    are real problems.

    We all know that Clickbank won't allow certain countries to sell their products
    because of the rampant fraud, so there must be something to this.

    So why do they let people from these countries BUY their products?

    Just doesn't make sense to me.

    Anyway, my latest "prediction" just came true. My latest sale from one
    of products from 8/6 (only 4 days ago) has been refunded. Kind of tough
    to go through a 10 ebook package in 4 days and determine its worth. But
    these guys manage to do it, time and time again. Oh, and yes, when the
    sale came in on the 6th I took one look and said, "Damn, another refund"

    I guess it's the cost of doing business.
    Ask anyone who is doing huge volume of sales online and they will tell you they
    only accept certain countries for traffic.

    Fraud goes high and conversions go low.

    Most countries in the world are terrible when to things like this. I've seen it
    again and again with my sites.
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  • Profile picture of the author LegitIncomes
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Sad as it is, I can predict refunds. All I have to do is look at the name on
    the sale and the country it's from and I can, 9 out of 10 times, predict that
    the sale will be refunded.

    I don't know if it's a language barrier problem (do these people expect the
    product to be written in their language) or if it's simply that these countries
    are real problems.

    We all know that Clickbank won't allow certain countries to sell their products
    because of the rampant fraud, so there must be something to this.

    So why do they let people from these countries BUY their products?

    Just doesn't make sense to me.

    Anyway, my latest "prediction" just came true. My latest sale from one
    of products from 8/6 (only 4 days ago) has been refunded. Kind of tough
    to go through a 10 ebook package in 4 days and determine its worth. But
    these guys manage to do it, time and time again. Oh, and yes, when the
    sale came in on the 6th I took one look and said, "Damn, another refund"

    I guess it's the cost of doing business.
    I agree 100%. I just received a sale yesterday, and right when I saw the country I thought to myself "well that will be refunded". And sure enough, it was.

    I think from now on I'm just going to automatically refund select countries, and not even send them the order. I hate to block an entire country, but that's about where I'm at.

    Josh
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  • Profile picture of the author Eric Johnson
    People always say not to judge and it is true that sometimes you are wrong BUT I used to work as a waiter and I got really really really good at determining if someone was going to tip or not. Was rarely wrong. Fact is you can stereotype certain groups of people, you just can.
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  • Profile picture of the author richard-pc
    Steve, if its not impolite to ask, it would be very interesting to know the ULR of the site you're getting the refund requests from (in certain countries).

    Are you OK to share this?

    Best wishes, Richard
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by richard-pc View Post

      Steve, if its not impolite to ask, it would be very interesting to know the ULR of the site you're getting the refund requests from (in certain countries).

      Are you OK to share this?

      Best wishes, Richard

      Richard, I don't want to blast any countries in public. Besides, as others have
      pointed out, everyone is going to have different experiences.

      I can only speak from my own.

      Who knows, maybe it's as Jason has suggested...negative thoughts
      and bad karma (I added the karma part)
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      • Profile picture of the author Michael Ellis
        Racism?? Geeze...c'mon.

        Jason, really, why go down that road?
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