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5+5+5=15

According to Common Core, this is incorrect. It should be:

3+3+3+3+3=15

Why "5+5+5=15" is wrong under the Common Core - Business Insider

They say the second one is correct because it's better to think of it as "5 groups of 3," rather than "3 groups of 5." This approach makes it easier when the student moves on to calculus with multiple variables.

I read somewhere Common Core math is designed to get students to think of math as more "fluid," and that will help them think more abstractly and foster innovation.

Is this all a bunch of malarkey, or do the Common Core people have good intentions (e.g., improve testing on STEM subjects) gone wrong?
  • Lemme get my calculator an' get back to you.

    Math is not my strong point so gonna try for January.
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  • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
    I'm no expert but it looks boring as all get out to me, and if I were a child it would be even more boring to me. If I tried that stunt on my son, who is around grade 3 level in math at 5-years-old, he'd definitely walk away and do something else.
    I think the way to get students interested in math is to show them such things as
    1. the gorgeous visual results of Benoit Mandelbrot's discovery of fractal geometry.
    2.Take kids out and show them Fibonacci sequences in nature.
    3.Have group drum lessons and show the math involved in drumming.
    4. Play videos like this:
    NOTE: The visual description of golden spirals in nautilus shells in the video is erroneous. This is how it really is:
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    • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      5+5+5=15

      According to Common Core, this is incorrect. It should be:

      3+3+3+3+3=15

      Why "5+5+5=15" is wrong under the Common Core - Business Insider

      They say the second one is correct because it's better to think of it as "5 groups of 3," rather than "3 groups of 5." This approach makes it easier when the student moves on to calculus with multiple variables.

      I read somewhere Common Core math is designed to get students to think of math as more "fluid," and that will help them think more abstractly and foster innovation.

      Is this all a bunch of malarkey, or do the Common Core people have good intentions (e.g., improve testing on STEM subjects) gone wrong?
      Probably done by the same loser that wrote the study on emotional and rational thought?

      Sounds like a load of crap to me, or something a doctor would recommend?

      I agree study maths for algorithmic constructs for complex fluid graphics, or whatever, but this is jump off a building boring!


      I would rather celebrate Caps off day again than this!


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    • Profile picture of the author Karen Blundell
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      I think the way to get students interested in math is to show them such things as
      1. the gorgeous visual results of Benoit Mandelbrot's discovery of fractal geometry.
      2.Take kids out and show them Fibonacci sequences in nature.
      3.Have group drum lessons and show the math involved in drumming.
      4. Play videos like this:
      Nature by Numbers - YouTube
      NOTE: The visual description of golden spirals in nautilus shells in the video is erroneous. This is how it really is:
      now you're talking - incidentally I spent hours and hours creating fractals and creating my own equations using a free software program called Fractal Explorer
      It is a lot of fun and a bit addictive -
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by Karen Blundell View Post

        now you're talking - incidentally I spent hours and hours creating fractals and creating my own equations using a free software program called Fractal Explorer
        It is a lot of fun and a bit addictive -
        Me too! It is great fun. I created this video with a free program called Mandelbulber. I just randomly played around with the program so it is really accidental.
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

      I'm no expert but it looks boring as all get out to me, and if I were a child it would be even more boring to me. If I tried that stunt on my son, who is around grade 3 level in math at 5-years-old, he'd definitely walk away and do something else.
      I think the way to get students interested in math is to show them such things as
      1. the gorgeous visual results of Benoit Mandelbrot's discovery of fractal geometry.
      2.Take kids out and show them Fibonacci sequences in nature.
      3.Have group drum lessons and show the math involved in drumming.
      4. Play videos like this:
      Nature by Numbers - YouTube
      NOTE: The visual description of golden spirals in nautilus shells in the video is erroneous. This is how it really is:
      I've heard that the Nautilus shell is the best natural speaker and B&W used that:

      Nautilus | the perfect speaker - Bowers & Wilkins | B&W Speakers

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  • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
    Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

    They say the second one is correct because it's better to think of it as "5 groups of 3," rather than "3 groups of 5." This approach makes it easier when the student moves on to calculus with multiple variables.
    I suspect that all we have here is a writer (and headline writer) that did not understand the underlying concern. It sounds like it's strictly a semantical issue, i.e., not that it's "better" to think of it that way, but that, strictly speaking, in our culture, "5x3" does mean "five three's", just as we say "5 cars" or "5z" in algebra. (In English, we never say "cars 5", and in algebra, you rarely see "z5".)

    The fact that five three's is equal to three five's is also important, but that's a separate step. First we need to be on the same page about communicating the basics, and then we have the tools necessary to teach and understand the commutative property, (i.e., that 5x3 = 3x5).

    I'm not defending Common Core, but it seems that every time there's an incendiary article about it, it's written by someone that didn't (or couldn't) understand the underlying math... and that's pretty sad, if you think about it.
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    • K, so I jus' figured how to turn the calculator on.

      Back later.

      (gonna be Feb now...)
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      • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
        5 x 3 is 5 lots of 3.

        5 people with 3 apples each is not the same as 3 people with 5 apples each.

        I doubt there were many schools anywhere in the US that would have taught differently. If indeed any.

        Dan
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        • hrnnn

          *brainache*

          uh huh -- so I got 3104558.

          That any help?
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          • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
            Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

            That any help?
            Sorry. No.
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          • Profile picture of the author rhondaklewis
            Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

            hrnnn

            *brainache*

            uh huh -- so I got 3104558.

            That any help?
            No Princess you are off by one. It's should be 3104557.
            I so smart.
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        • Profile picture of the author Star Man
          Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

          5 x 3 is 5 lots of 3.

          5 people with 3 apples each is not the same as 3 people with 5 apples each.

          I doubt there were many schools anywhere in the US that would have taught differently. If indeed any.

          Dan
          Yeah, if you want to make an apple pie, ask 5 people to bring 3 apples each. Don't ask 3 people to bring 5 apples.

          Because in one case you'll get 15 apples, but in the other case...
          well, also 15. But 5 people are more fun.

          Or, if I think about it...















          ... do you want to share the pie with 3 or 5 eaters?

          Also, if you want to borrow $1,500, borrow $500 from 3 people, don't borrow $300 from 5 people. Because if you don't pay back, you'll have 5 angry creditors.
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    • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
      Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

      I'm not defending Common Core, but it seems that every time there's an incendiary article about it, it's written by someone that didn't (or couldn't) understand the underlying math... and that's pretty sad, if you think about it.
      I watched a video explaining Common Core. We aren't used to doing math that way, but I see how Common Core would help the student understand how they arrived at the answer. In other words, it creates a deeper foundational understanding of how to think.

      If you just look it up on Wikipedia, you'll see the advantages. Just because it isn't the way we do math, doesn't mean it isn't a better way.

      It isn't the math, it's the fact that it's a change from what we are used to.

      Remember, if we don't understand it, it must be evil.
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      • Profile picture of the author tagiscom
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        I watched a video explaining Common Core. We aren't used to doing math that way, but I see how Common Core would help the student understand how they arrived at the answer. In other words, it creates a deeper foundational understanding of how to think.

        If you just look it up on Wikipedia, you'll see the advantages. Just because it isn't the way we do math, doesn't mean it isn't a better way.

        It isn't the math, it's the fact that it's a change from what we are used to.

        Remember, if we don't understand it, it must be evil.
        Sounds like an exiting afternoon in class!


        Anyone, know why common core mathematics is important, anyone......!

        But at least these days, they can stare at Sad Cat updates?

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      • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        We aren't used to doing math that way, but I see how Common Core would help the student understand how they arrived at the answer. In other words, it creates a deeper foundational understanding of how to think.
        I'm not making a statement, either for or against Common Core. (Maybe I should've simply said that.)

        What I do observe is that we've been testing the blazes out of kids, to the point where that's all that teachers can do to keep up with the tests, and there seems to be no upside to doing this. (I'm not looking it up, but I'm guessing that Common Core isn't going to make the tests go away.) We've gotten rid of "non-essentials" like art and music. I'm sure there are other changes; my kids are out of school, so I haven't been paying attention.

        The bottom line, though, is that very few of them seem to have even the most basic of skills; few can write or subtract. Other countries run rings around the US in terms of literacy and numeracy. Something is fundamentally wrong.
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

          I'm not making a statement, either for or against Common Core. (Maybe I should've simply said that.)

          What I do observe is that we've been testing the blazes out of kids, to the point where that's all that teachers can do to keep up with the tests, and there seems to be no upside to doing this. (I'm not looking it up, but I'm guessing that Common Core isn't going to make the tests go away.) We've gotten rid of "non-essentials" like art and music. I'm sure there are other changes; my kids are out of school, so I haven't been paying attention.

          The bottom line, though, is that very few of them seem to have even the most basic of skills; few can write or subtract. Other countries run rings around the US in terms of literacy and numeracy. Something is fundamentally wrong.
          I was only talking about Common Core. And the only reason I'm even aware of it, is that I didn't know what all the anger was about..so I looked it up.

          The rest of the current educational system? I'm blissfully unaware of any of it.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
            Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

            The rest of the current educational system? I'm blissfully unaware of any of it.
            And yet you still encounter it at just about every restaurant and store. Even when the register tells them how to make change for a $10 bill, there's often confusion.
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            • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
              Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

              And yet you still encounter it at just about every restaurant and store. Even when the register tells them how to make change for a $10 bill, there's often confusion.
              It's because the counter person isn't taught how to make change. There is no math involved, just counting out the change from the bill amount...to the amount given.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                It's because the counter person isn't taught how to make change.
                We're in agreement; they aren't taught. That's what should be going on in schools.

                Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

                There is no math involved, just counting out the change from the bill amount...to the amount given.
                Semantics, perhaps; what you describe essentially is one very reasonable approach to subtraction. But underlying your comment is an inherent understanding of the math problem. For you and I, it's so obvious and straight-forward that we don't even consider there to be any math here.
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                • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
                  Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

                  Semantics, perhaps; what you describe essentially is one very reasonable approach to subtraction. But underlying your comment is an inherent understanding of the math problem. For you and I, it's so obvious and straight-forward that we don't even consider there to be any math here.
                  I'll be honest, it's been so long since I've thought about school, even for my Son....I have no idea how kids are taught.

                  And all simple math (add subtract, divide, multiply, fractions, percentages) came very easily to me. I've owned a retail store since 1983 I think. (While also being engaged in other businesses). I had my store for years, before I watched a girl count out change correctly. I realized at that moment that it solved a world of problems, if I just did it that way.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    You're all wrong, 15+0 = 15 is easier.








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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      You're all wrong, 15+0 = 15 is easier.
      I like this the best. One person went to the grocery store and saw that apples were on sale and decided to make some delicious homemade apple pie and bought 15 apples.

      1 group of 15 = 15
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    I voted against common core, because of the way it was presented to me. When the guidance counselor spoke about it, it seemed to me to be another "No Child Left Behind" BS scheme designed to keep kids flowing through the school system, even if they haven't earned it.

    Leveling the playing field (by lowering the bar again) between the "not so gifted" (AKA not being required to study at home, by their parents) and the kids who are actually required to perform their studies (gifted, nowadays)

    The first school my daughter went to required Common Core. Hate to say it, but a lot of the kids there are plumb dumb. The types of "winners" that specific school system pumps out aren't exactly Harvard bound. It's a low income area, with low income housing, and the parents don't exactly stand up to fight for their child's education. Most of the teachers had a negative vibe to them, as if they carried a chip on their shoulder.

    In her new school, they gave her Common Core, but then realized she wasn't a dumbass and put her into Advanced Placement (old school teaching?) classes. She's finally started thriving and loving school because of the AP/AR classes. Those use to be standard when I went to school.

    I think CC / NCLB is hog wash to keep parents from feeling like their kids a bit on the touched side or taking responsibility for their child not being at the top of the class. Same with the "No Child Left Behind" rules. If the child can't pass the grade, don't pass them. It's a pretty simple concept, I think.

    Yeah, it may not be the child's fault, but don't give the parents an out to blame them not raising their child properly on the school system. I've heard that numerous times, waiting to pick my daughter up from her first school -- how hard the schooling is for their kid, but then how much time the parents don't spend making sure their kid understands what's being taught and exactly what the parents are doing with their free time. Pretty pathetic, if you ask me.

    I was expected to get good grades in school, or figure out why and ask for help when I couldn't understand it. In no way, shape, or form, was my learning dumbed down to make sure the "touched" kids could keep up. Nope, they got held back a grade and the parents had to answer for it. Back before handing out pills to kids like candy was the thing to do.

    To contribute, 3x5 = 15, 5x3 = 15.

    /rant (apologies for stepping on any toes -- Common Core and NCLB are topics I've disagreed with from the beginning.)
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  • Profile picture of the author socialentry
    I would say it would be best if kids start with set theory.

    This way we can identify those with IQs below 70, and start culling the herd.

    kekeke!
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    Common Core are the same folks behind the Sarah Palin campaign via the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon.

    Google it.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon
      Ironically, I'm recording audio and some animation for a client today that covers this for about ten seconds. I wish I could share the clip, but, well, I don't have the rights yet. Maybe later.
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  • Profile picture of the author allegandro
    What if you have only 14 students?
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  • Aw, 5318008, I am such a goof.
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  • Profile picture of the author yukon
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    What did I miss, David Beroff has been banned from Warrior Forum.
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    • That's bad news.

      Last post I saw by him was up on on the top Main Forum: the thread about new posts.

      Mebbe somethin' happened there.

      He seemed ok, an' I hope they let him back.
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      • Profile picture of the author thunderbird
        Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

        That's bad news.

        Last post I saw by him was up on on the top Main Forum: the thread about new posts.

        Mebbe somethin' happened there.

        He seemed ok, an' I hope they let him back.
        That's a surprise. I've never seen anything controversial or offensive from David Beroff.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
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      Originally Posted by yukon View Post

      What did I miss, David Beroff has been banned from Warrior Forum.
      Saw that too and was shocked.
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      • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
        Originally Posted by yukon View Post

        What did I miss, David Beroff has been banned from Warrior Forum.
        Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

        That's bad news.

        Last post I saw by him was up on on the top Main Forum: the thread about new posts.

        Mebbe somethin' happened there.

        He seemed ok, an' I hope they let him back.
        Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post

        That's a surprise. I've never seen anything controversial or offensive from David Beroff.
        Originally Posted by Claude Whitacre View Post

        And he's one of the smarter and more rational people here. Oh well, hopefully it's not a permanent ban.
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        Saw that too and was shocked.
        Thank you all very much for all of your kind forum posts, PM's, emails, FB messages, smoke signals and delicious pumpkin pies. I do strongly appreciate the outpouring of support from all of you!

        To answer the obvious question, one might assume that it was this post that got me banned, but actually, I'm pretty certain that this is the one that triggered their wrath and fury, (despite it getting "corrected" rather quickly).

        Mind our p's and q's, indeed! {sigh}
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        • Profile picture of the author Claude Whitacre
          Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

          Thank you all very much for all of your kind forum posts, PM's, emails, FB messages, smoke signals and delicious pumpkin pies. I do strongly appreciate the outpouring of support from all of you!

          To answer the obvious question, one might assume that it was this post that got me banned, but actually, I'm pretty certain that this is the one that triggered their wrath and fury, (despite it getting "corrected" rather quickly).

          Mind our p's and q's, indeed! {sigh}

          David; Glad to see you back.

          Yup, I was banned awhile back, for an affiliate link in a post. They were right, I was wrong. I wasn't even an affiliate, and didn't know it was an affiliate link. But I learned quickly how to tell the difference.
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        • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
          Originally Posted by David Beroff View Post

          Thank you all very much for all of your kind forum posts, PM's, emails, FB messages, smoke signals and delicious pumpkin pies. I do strongly appreciate the outpouring of support from all of you!

          To answer the obvious question, one might assume that it was this post that got me banned, but actually, I'm pretty certain that this is the one that triggered their wrath and fury, (despite it getting "corrected" rather quickly).

          Mind our p's and q's, indeed! {sigh}
          I did not send anything like PMs or pumpkin pies, but I did look at your profile.

          Welcome back.
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          • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
            Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

            I did not send anything like PMs or pumpkin pies,
            Ah! I forgot all about the coupon for the one night free stay in the penthouse suite! Thanks!!

            Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

            but I did look at your profile.
            Heh... yet something else you'd think they'd ban me for.

            Originally Posted by bizgrower View Post

            Welcome back.
            Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author hardraysnight
    it is indisputable

    d+a+v+i+d+b+e+r+o+f+f = b+a+n+n+e+d

    now that is smart and rational
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  • Looks like my theory about the universe being ruled by an evil ruminant was wrong.

    Welcome back to the flipside, Dave.
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    • Profile picture of the author David Beroff
      Originally Posted by Princess Balestra View Post

      Looks like my theory about the universe being ruled by an evil ruminant was wrong.

      Welcome back to the flipside, Dave.
      Thank you, Princess. And thanks to Google, I now know more about bovine digestion than I ever cared to. Considering its end product, the world now makes more sense than ever.
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  • Profile picture of the author webmarketer
    If someone owes me $15, payment could come in fifteen $1 bills, $10 and $5 bills, three $5 bills, or other denomination combinations. Heck, he could pay me in coins. As long as I get paid $15, we're good. Otherwise, I'd bite his ear off.
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