Client thinks he knows web design..

Couple of things you can learn from this.

If they didn't see you as the expert it's because you didn't position yourself as the expert.

If they knew that they were paying you because your opinions on design were tried and tested and you knew what the site would convert with your designs.. they wouldn't argue.

I'm not saying you can't do that. But you didn't set it up that way.

That's how i'd be looking at it.

Well if they own a design firm then they do know what they are talking about don't they?

They may not have the technical ability to translate that into reality which is where you came in. That is really what they wanted when they bought from you.

You know many times why a sales person thinks someone bought and why that person actually bought are rarely the same.

Car rep: They bought because it is a good value car, we are a good dealership blah blah bah
Customer: It had a cup holder.

Ok that is a bit of an exaggeration but not as much as you would think.

I'm reading that you are going to make their 'dream' come true.

They should therefore become your raving fan.

In general though you would lose control if what happened became the norm. You didn't have control or positioning here.

One way to stop it is quite simple. Don't send a demo. You don't need to to make sales. When someone receives a demo they are going to be thinking ok I don't like that colour or that font or that xyz

You should sell like the design guys do and all major agencies.

You sell the concept plus you being the person to do it. Your portfolio does that, no need for demo.

And you map out your process. Such as rough draft, revision 1, revision 2, final article.

This is how companies charge a fortune. I know a Graphic Designer and his company deal with shipping companies such as Maersk.

£50k plus VAT is their from price and they do the above.

Dan

Every designer faces a client like this somewhere down the road. Some more than others... Learn from it, consider what you did wrong and implement changes when the next deal comes around. Be the professional. Let them know that you have the knowledge to convert traffic to customers.

Here are a couple things I noticed here.

1. They are a design firm: This should mean when it comes to design they should be experts. It may not be in web design but they should know how people think and what they like. If they are successful they should know what their target clients want to see.

2. You mention you are just starting out. I would assume you have made websites for online businesses before. At least you have read on what works and what doesn't.

3. They paid you. Which means they trusted you to be able to build what they wanted.

Here is what I see here and I actually see it too often on this site. And that is people assuming they know more then their clients without proof. Have you created websites for clients in similar industries that converted?

Do you even know what the client wants the website to do? Do they want phone calls? Emails? Maybe all they want is it to look pretty.

Why would a company want a website designed to look nice but not designed to get leads? Maybe they want to look too important and busy for new clients. That way when they are approached they can quote the kind of prices only the truly large and important firms can. Remember they don't need the clients business. They are doing the client a favor by working for them.

You mention they were bringing in design ideas based on the website of a big player in their industry. You think it's outdated. We can't see it to give our opinion. But did you ever stop and think maybe it worked. That maybe one of the guys you are talking to knew it worked, knew how it worked, and wanted their site to work the same. Stop and think about it. They basically did what smart company in their position would do and that is follow the leader with what is working for them.

But Aaron following never works. Tell that to Microsoft. Their main business was build on seeing what Apple did, copying it, and finding a better way to sell it (licensing).

The problem here is I don't know rather you were more of an expert than this firm. If you were not the lesson here is to learn that you are not always the smartest person in the room. As I always say, "The true genius knows that he knows nothing".

On the other hand if you were the expert the problem is they didn't see you as one. This means you didn't have proof that you were an expert, you didn't sound and act like an expert, and you didn't price yourself like an expert. So how do we fix this.

First you need to show proof you are an expert. You mention you are just starting out. So if all you have is book smarts (aka knowledge) but have not put it into play you can't show them. But if you have experience and a portfolio you need to have this available. You need testimonals as well. This way you have the proof that others consider you an expert.

Second you need to sound like an expert. When they wanted to copy XYZ's website did you explain how it would not accomplish what they wanted their website to accomplish what they wanted their website to accomplish? Did you find out what they wanted their website to accomplish. Did you tell them why that goal made or didn't make sense based on your knowledge of web design within their industry? And finally when they would not respect your imput did you stand up and walk out?

Wait.... Aaron why on earth would I walk out? Because you are the expert. You don't have time to deal with people who don't understand that. Plain and simple look them in the eyes and tell them this is not going to work. "Mr. Prospect this is what I do. I live it. I breath it. If you simply want someone to code your website for you there are hundreds of people who will do it for you. And honestly they will charge you a lot less then I will charge you. I don't code websites. I design them."

And finally that comes to price. If you wanted to be respected as the expert you need to price yourself as one. Right now normal companies pay around $100 to $150/hr for basic web services like web coding, basic design, and etc. That's what they expect to pay. Those hiring experts expect to pay a lot more.

You were pitching web design to a design firm. If they are charging double or triple per hour what you are dod you think they consider you an expert? Do you think they were even looking to hire an expert? Maybe they were looking to hire a specialist (aka a coder) to do a techinical task they could not.

When it comes to being a web designer or consultant you can market yourself any way you want to. You can be an "expert" at multiple levels. A guy charging $299 and using a free WP theme may be an expert to a small mom and pop business. And on the other hand you may find large companies that will only work with experts that charge millions per project. You don't even have to be an "expert". You could be a specialist and find companies like this firm who have the vision but not the skills to make their dream a reality. But no matter what you choose to be you need to brand yourself.

It doesn't sound like you like or will enjoy this project. But you hopefully learned a lesson. You need to feel like the expert and not just a specialist. So you need to change things up in your branding to make sure you only attract clients looking for an expert like you to take their website to the next level.

So use this project and others you have completed to make a portfolio. Get testimonials. Show the proof you are an expert. Next learn to talk and have the confidence of an expert. Finally decide what price level of expert you are and make sure you market yourself to business that consider that an expert.

Mom & Pop businesses may think $50/hr is an expert because they have never made that much per hour in their life. While a lawyer who regularly charges his clients $1,000/hr likely wouldn't even be impressed with a firm that charged $500/hr.

Of course remember you have to have the skills, knowledge, and more importantly proof that you are an expert worth $1,000/hr or even $200/hr. Everyone has to work their way up but if you choose the right clients and keep producing results that blow away their expectations you can get to those levels.

That happened to me once. Basically they wanted a store with some FaceBook like features. They told me the colors they wanted and how they wanted it.

First they wanted a logo. I got them a logo. They asked for a mascot cartoon type of logo and then they said it was too cartoony. No problem I made it less cartoony.

Then I made the whole site, back end, added their products, etc.. They loved it, but had some minor changes. Turns out the guy's girlfriend is an artist or something like that. They took the whole site and changed all of the colors (into all very bright colors) and made it cartoony colors that matched my original logo. They sent me a jpg not a PSD. So I took what they sent me and made it into a theme.

They were happy, they paid me. Story over.

The moral of the story is if they want something let them have it (within reason). They're the one's footing the dime. Also I charged them when the job was done. I gave them a price range in the beginning and the re-theming went into their costs.

Unisons:

Fact #1. You got the cheque. They trust you and want to work with you. Your position could not be better!

Fact #2. I spend money to get what I want. Not something the salesman thinks I may like because?

So, give the folks what they think they want but don't hesitate to provide "alternates for consideration because" listing what you perceive to be valid reasons for varying from their thinking.

They may be surprised at what they are missing....or you may be surprised on what you don't understand about their business.

Let us know what happens

Vern

I have a question.... I still don't understand why you can't say the "big palyers" site sucks.
If that's how you feel, and that's your personality, why try to cover it up?

Maybe its just me, but I don't try to pretend to be someone else. I don't care, if we are going to do business together, you will do business with me... not my alter ego.
If the site sucked, I would tell them the site sucked. Not subtly either, I would say " well. That site sucks and if you want to take a step back, then I don't think we are a good fit. If you want to take a step forward, then you have to be open to what I am saying."

I agree with many others in that telling your qualified opinion is always better in the long term. Some topics in my opinion your reasoning should speak to are: why should the client trust you, how is your opinion less risky than theirs and how will this better accomplish their IM goals.

I just had a client like the one you described, I ended up finishing and walking away. This is a project that WILL NOT go in my portfolio or have my brand on it. They got what they wanted and it sucks.

I saw this Perfect Description of Nightmare Client and had to laugh.

If you havnt seen it already.. http://www.warriorforum.com/offline-...ight-hell.html

Was it something like this?

Always make the client feel they're in control by letting them make some small changes. Of course, if they really know what they want then just give it to them.

I always suggest that you get clients to show you (ahead of time) several sites that they like and sites they don't like (and why.)

"We like the general clean look and feel of this site but want some drop-down menus like this other site... "

That gives you something to go on instead of just creating something and then having them shoot it down or revise it dramatically.

There are times when you will be in disagreement over what's best for the site.

If possible (and feasible), you may suggest that you test both ideas with a split test.
Use some analytics to find out how long people stay on each version of the site, where they go, what they click on. That will tell you which, in actuality, is the "best" choice. Only the marketplace can decide. (I guess wrong lots of times.)

Also, if you're in web design I'd highly recommend the book: "Don't Make Me Think." It's probably the best web-design book I've read.