Is this ethical?! This guy is paying his outsources <$2/HOUR!!!

[doop]

I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

Replace Myself | HomePage

The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

Is he "exploiting" these people....?

[AndyCamden]

I personally think is unethical. Some will think differently. The fact of the matter is that people will work for that much.

[Clyde Dennis]

Sir rightly or wrongly, ethical or not there will always be someone willing to do for $2.00 what you may not even consider doing for less than $200.00, or even $2000.00.

Those who accept the $2.00 rate are just as much a free lancer as the person that holds out for the $2000.00 jobs.

This is rightly or wrongly, ethically or not the essence of how a free market operates.

[schabotte]

If people are willing to do the work for a certain price of their own free will, why would it be unethical? The marketer did nothing to force them to take the work. And I don't know the typical wage in the Philippines but that could represent a good hourly wage over there.

[lakshaybehl]

I don't know about Phillipines... But here in India you could get someone for well under $2/hour working on their computer for you... And they would be considered to be middle class people... not poor.

[lakshaybehl]

Just so you know, I do outsource at those rates...

And its not just me because my mom had a government job.. She is a gazzetted officer, and still she was paid just $2/hour considering she had a 8:30-6:30 job (10 hours and was paid $20/day).

-Lakshay

[Bryan Zimmerman]

$2.00 to you might be nothing more than a candy bar and a soda. To someone else it might be a way to feed their family. In parts of some countries $2.00 an hour is actually a lot of money.

[Michael Dominic]

... and minimum wage is less than $4 USD per day in Mexico (Just south of United States where federal minimum wage is $6.55 per hour)!

I believe Phillippines is about $5 USD per day.

Even though this might seem like a small amount it might mean a lot to those that are receiving it, especially if it's a considerable amount over the minimum wage of that country.

It may be morally wrong to some but it's a business choice...

[write-stuff]

I guess I could never understand the moral or ethical delimma with something like this. Someone has a service that he will sell for an agreed upon price. How is this immoral? Would he be better if you took the job elsewhere and paid him nothing?

[Mike McBride]

Why do people get their panties in a bunch - and start throwing around terms like "ethical" - about stuff like this that has zero to do with them?

One person is willing to pay x dollars to have a job done, and someone else - without threat or coercion - is willing to do said job for that price, so what's the problem?

Or to paraphrase Tina Turner, "What's ethics got to do with it?"

[aceriker]

I moved from the UK to come and work in India and I can tell you straight up that $2 an hour is plenty for people to live on here.

We pay college freshers less than $1 an hour. Does that make us unethical? No, that's just what the cost of living is in India for someone fresh out of college - and we have no shortage of people wanting that job! Each week we hold group interviews of 10-15 freshers who are desperate to earn that kind of money.

$2 an hour is actually more than most of my team get so don't tell them about this!

To put it in to perspective, my lunch today cost me 50 cents and I'm putting on weight

[ileneg]

I am NOT judging anyone, so don't go there, but I do have a somewhat rhetorical question up for discussion - are those US citizens who outsource overseas the same US citizens who get "peaved" when the US federal government does the same thing?

Is it irony? Is it a personal moral dilemma? Either? Both?

ilene

[prodozoan]

Originally Posted by aceriker

$2 an hour is actually more than most of my team get so don't tell them about this!

Dont worry.. it would make no difference even if they are told

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by aceriker

I moved from the UK to come and work in India and I can tell you straight up that $2 an hour is plenty for people to live on here.

We pay college freshers less than $1 an hour. Does that make us unethical? No, that's just what the cost of living is in India for someone fresh out of college - and we have no shortage of people wanting that job! Each week we hold group interviews of 10-15 freshers who are desperate to earn that kind of money.

$2 an hour is actually more than most of my team get so don't tell them about this!

In a free market economy, people have the freedom to accept any job that they want to do. If my living expenses weren't so high, I would not worry about accepting less money. I broke my back when I was a kid at an electrical supply house for $4/hr. and it was brutal. $2/hr. to sit at a computer is a good job in some parts of the world. After all, every single one of us with a JOB are paid peanuts when compared to how much money we create for the company WE work for. Are people with a JOB being exploited?

TomG.

[AaronJones]

Any business owners job is to get your services at the lowest price they can. It is the job of the employee to get the best price they can for their services.

If someone sells themselves short or accepts less than their worth that is not unethical because they are the ones who set their price.

When you set your price for your product you are giving an estimate of what you think the market will accept, starting at the highest and working lower and the market tells you what the final price is.

When hiring, your are giving an estimate of what their services are worth starting at the lowest point and working up higher. It is the market who tells you what the final wage is.

Selling an ebook for $15000 is not unethical if you suggest a price and the market accepts.

Hiring someone for a penny an hour is not unethical if the market accepts.

You lower or raise your offers based on how the market responds.

This is just how business works.

Aaron

[tommygadget]

Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh

The truth is that it is morally wrong.
It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


Kindest,
Raymond

This is a debate without end. If I was a student with a few hours to spend and I lived where the cost of living was very low, I would have no problem working for some spending money. I certainly would not consider it slavery. I would be glad for the experience and learn as much as I could.

TomG.

[Mike McBride]

Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh

The truth is that it is morally wrong.
It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


Kindest,
Raymond

Oh man, you just don't know when to quit, do you?

[Mark Coverdale]

Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh

The truth is that it is morally wrong.
It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...


Kindest,
Raymond

Sorry, but thats bulls##t.

How the hell is it slavery? These people accept jobs that allow them a life style which is considered middle class in their country. They may not be making $4000 a month like you can in Australia but I bet they don't have to pay $400 a week rent to get a decent house for a family either. It's all relative to the countries economy and cost of living.

Slavery is forced work, they are not being forced to do anything.

[Sagar Mehta]

Originally Posted by Raymond Edeh

The truth is that it is morally wrong.
It's a graphic example of exploitation and modern way of slavery...

With all respect, I seem to disagree with you Raymond. Nothing is 'the truth'. It's morally wrong, yes, but not to everybody. It's morally wrong - to you.

Slavery is when a person is COMPELLED to work for someone else.

If someone is working for less than $2 an hour willingly, I don't think it is unethical. I wouldn't pay someone that low personally but it's out there and we can pick whom we want to work for us. More importantly, THEY can pick if they want to work for us at whatever rate.

Demand and supply as usual - it seems heartless the way economics works but that's the way it is.

Regards,
Sagar

[Kelly Verge]

My brother has two full-time overseas VA's that he pays < $2 per hour. At different times, both have told him how much of a blessing his hiring them has been.

For a comparable wage as they were earing at a full-time office job, they are able to stay home and deal with family issues instead of being trapped in an office. They have flexible work schedules. Plus, he's not real demanding and the work is easy.

I suppose the "ethical" alternative is to not hire them, and instead hire a college kid for $7+ per hour for beer money. (Yes, I know that's a generalization - almost as bad as yours that these people are being exploited.)

Exactly who do you think you're hiring with the lowball bids at GetaFreelancer or Elance? If they totaled their hours, what do you think their per-hour wage would be? In my book, offering a permanent full-time position is a real step up from these contracted jobs.

[Adeel_Chowdhry]

Originally Posted by Clyde Dennis

Sir rightly or wrongly, ethical or not there will always be someone willing to do for $2.00 what you may not even consider doing for less than $200.00, or even $2000.00.

Those who accept the $2.00 rate are just as much a free lancer as the person that holds out for the $2000.00 jobs.

This is rightly or wrongly, ethically or not the essence of how a free market operates.

Agree totally.

Adeel

[globalpro]

I agree that if a price is agreed upon then it's both morally and ethically sound. Like it's been stated, many other countries have a lower cost of living, so the people have a lower rate of pay.

How do you think the outsourcing of jobs in the uS came about? People in other countries offering to do work at a lower rate. Some said it was undercutting the market in the US, but it was simply business. People have to start taking a global perspective where the economy is concerned.

As a suggestion, if you outsource to someone in another country, where you feel their price is too low, if they do a good job for you, you could always give them a bonus. That would be a good thing to do.

I know this may be a bone of contention, but I know quite a few marketers that outsource to other countries not so much for price, but because they get a higher level of service and standard of work done.

Like anything, you get what you pay for, but I don't want to pay top dollar for shoddy work.

Thanks,

John

[gcjmarkets]

How much do sweat shop workers get? I am also pretty sure there was no shortage of people willing to work in those conditions either.

It just makes me sick to my stomach seeing videos like the one in the op post because to me thats a pipe dream and it perpetuates the internet marketing stereotype of do nothing and get rich over night. Im sorry but even when you outsource everything and your entire business is on autopilot you still have to work. For one you have to direct each project so that the final result is what you have in mind and two if you sit still long enough you will get passed by. Either someone will figure out how to take what you have or your business will just get outdated.

[MaskedMarketer]

nice promoting that capture page - how many emails you get off the warrior forum

Anyways,

Who thinks this is unethical? LOL

This is great for US and Philippines..

Have you ever been to a country were they are starving? Where you can't get a job, because there is no work? So, you think providing someone like that, with 2/hr (that's rich to some) is unethical?

What would you rather have, $.25 an hour, or no job and no pay?

[Michael Forey]

I think it is all relative to the standard of living. If that same person could only get $1 working for someone else it is great pay.

Michael Forey

[chewie49]

It would be unethical if the people accepting the job were angry about the wage, but if people accept it,...they are happy with it.

In MANY countries, 2$/hour it is really BIG BIG money

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by chewie49

It would be unethical if the people accepting the job were angry about the wage, but if people accept it,...they are happy with it.

In MANY countries, 2$/hour it is really BIG BIG money

Sometimes the "privileged" countries can't see how 2/hr is successful for some...

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Gerald Bowman

I guess, it varies from person to person.

Gerald you're so right.

That's why its such a powerful technique to be able to see from all eyes...

[Paul Myers]

"What is the sound of one knee jerking?"

Leaving aside the anonymous nature of the OP, and the fact that the (obviously low-detail) picture next to his post could well be the same person as in the video (or not)...

Yes. It's terribly unethical to go into a market and offer to hire willing people for substantially more than the prevailing wage, for work that's easier, safer and more enjoyable than what they'd usually get for the price. Offering someone the opportunity to significantly improve the standard of living they and their family enjoy is the very definition of crass, materialistic exploitation.

Doh!

But that's already been answered.

The real curiosity in this thread is the common mistake of confusing personal opinion, often one that's totally uninformed, with ethical consideration.

"I don't like it, so it must be Bad."

Context, folks.

Consider: It would be fairly unusual for people who can afford personal computers and Internet connectivity to be among a country's desperately poor and starving. These folks have real options. That hardly fits the negative connotation of exploitation as I understand it.

Describing this as slavery simply indicates that the person presenting that idea is an idiot. Slaves aren't given free choices, much less choices that beat the market.

This business of trotting out the word "unethical" for things a person simply happens to dislike makes that person look irrational and uninformed. And it only works on similarly uninformed people.

Confusing ethics with "entitlement" is a dangerous mistake.


Paul

[lennelljones]

It all depends on where you live and what the cost of living is in that particular country. What may seem downright insulting and unethical in some parts of the world is actually a very decent living wage in other parts of the world. Ultimately, it is up to the individual considering the job whether he/she will accept the offered wage.

[Christopher R Everson]

Makes you wonder if he couldn't bump it up to $3 an hour and be a hero

[Kelly Verge]

Now you've got me thinking...

I was pretty excited after a phone call I got yesterday. I've been asked to do some contract IM work for the Dubai royal family. They want to pay me $7,000 per day.

Now I've done some research and have found out that they've been paying a local firm to do this work for $30K per day.

I guess I shouldn't allow myself to be taken advantage of and put into this kind of slavery.

Thanks for setting me straight.

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by Paul Myers

Offering someone the opportunity to significantly improve the standard of living they and their family enjoy is the very definition of crass, materialistic exploitation.

Insightful post, Paul, but are you saying offering someone the opportunity to improve there standard of living and life is a bad thing because its materialistic?

[Paul Myers]

Insightful post, Paul, but are you saying offering someone the opportunity to improve there standard of living and life is a bad thing because its materialistic?

Sorry. I have to stop using those obscure writer's tricks in lay forums.

No. That was what we in the trade call sardonic humor. It's closely related to sarcasm, but more disdainful and less abrasive.


Paul

[AaronJones]

Originally Posted by Kelly Verge

Now you've got me thinking...

I was pretty excited after a phone call I got yesterday. I've been asked to do some contract IM work for the Dubai royal family. They want to pay me $7,000 per day.

Now I've done some research and have found out that they've been paying a local firm to do this work for $30K per day.

I guess I shouldn't allow myself to be taken advantage of and put into this kind of slavery.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Stand up for yourself and quit! :-)

[joblythe]

Now I've done some research and have found out that they've been paying a local firm to do this work for $30K per day.

Mmmm just got a phone call yesterday saying we had lost the contract!

Damn - so it was true! We will have to sharpen our pencils (and no Xmas pressies for the kids this year!)

Ahhhhh!

[ndcole78]

No, it's not unethical. If they agree to the price and it's not against the law, then it's fine. There's nothing sneaky or fishy about it. The cost of living is so much cheaper in India, ect. than it is in the US, so the lower fee is good for them--not in the US though.

Big businesses have been doing it for years. If you have a computer problem, cable problem, ect., just call in and I'll bet that 90% of the time you'll be talking to someone from another country.

I know sometimes it's frustrating because you spend more time trying to understand what the operator is saying rather than getting your problem resolved, but this is just what things have come to in an effort to increase profit margins.

[Kamran]

It is perfectly ethical. Why? Because $2 is 98.3238 PHP ( Philippines Pesos) at a rate of 1 USD = 49.1619 PHP. I made a Google search and found that the minimum hourly wage is 50 PHP. By the way the median hourly rate for software programmers is 135 PHP=$2.75

[jayden.fellze]

Originally Posted by doop

I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

Replace Myself | HomePage

The guy is paying workers in the Philippines about $1-$2 PER HOUR to create his "Ultimate IM Lifestyle".

Now I'm all for outsourcing - in fact i wouldn't be nearly as successful online if it wasn't for outsourcing.

BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

Is he "exploiting" these people....?

Well, this is hard to tell. As some people here in this thread pointed out, people in some parts of the world are paid less or near 2$ equivalent on their regular jobs. For them, 2$ an hour is a pretty good enough.
While for others its just enough to pay for a box of paper clips.
So, its basically how the market operates.
Although, personally, I wouldnt ask someone to work for me at 2$ an hour where I am seeing people doing the same work for 200$/hour. It would be very unfair and would be oppressive (sorry, not getting the right expression here)....

[MaskedMarketer]

Originally Posted by jayden.fellze

Although, personally, I wouldnt ask someone to work for me at 2$ an hour where I am seeing people doing the same work for 200$/hour. It would be very unfair and would be oppressive (sorry, not getting the right expression here)....

I feel the same way, but remember this- you may be paying someone less in one country and more in the country..

And you have to factor in cost of living. The person you are paying less can very well have a better life because of the cost of living offset.

Its a BIG WORLD out there..

[Alexandre Valois]

Well, first thanks for the heads up, I will definitely have a look at what the guy has to say.

I moved here in the Philippines 2 months ago, and although I didn't expect much, I knew I wanted to stay away from the whole expat package (fully furnished condo with spa and gym ...). So I set up my studio in an "average" neighborhood.

Some facts:

- My neighbors are 4 adults (with wives), all siblings (from a family of 13), living under the same roof - with their older father, and the kids.

- One out of 13 siblings is working right now. The rest of the house income comes from a sister living in Japan - and working there.

- At least 40% of the neighborhood is currently unemployed, looking for relatives support and odd jobs from time to time - not to supplement their income, but to survive.

- A double cheese burger value meal costs me about 3$ here.

- Most people from the middle-lower class wouldn't even dare "waste" so much money on a meal.

- My neighbors buy matchboxes at 0.06 cents.

- Their electricity was cut off months ago, because they couldn't pay the bills.

- The man who is working right now has more than 13 years of experience working as a host in Dubai's most prestigious hotel - and has personally met more of the world's most influential man than you could list on your fingers. Here, he's lucky to have found a 250$ per month IT job.

- One of the woman living next to me has worked in Dubai for 9 years in the hotel industry as well. She is 35 years old - too old to find any work here.

So you tell me it's unethical to give those people an opportunity to EARN enough money to LIVE? (and I'm talking about living here, not surviving).

Edit: What IS unethical is the corrupt politicians ripping off their own people. Not the foreigners that bring investment money and employment opportunities. And fear not, I do my part to make sure the government doesn't get one penny more than they are legally entitled to.

[eireen]

Originally Posted by doop

I just received an e-mail from a marketer..... check out the video for yourself here:

BUT WE HAVE TO DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE....

Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

Is he "exploiting" these people....?

Sir,
Im from the philippines, will you be surprised if ill tell you that 1-2$ per hour is quite a big amount for a freelancer? If somebody will pay me $2 per hour while staying at home ill be very happy for that. Telling you this, a regular employee here is paid for 7-8$ for 8 hrs of work. So if that guy is paying $1 per hour ill still go for it,since it is a homebased work and i dont have to spend for my transportation anymore and much more if he'll pay me 2$ per hour. Ive been doing captcha projects from india, i have a team of 20 people and to tell you this our client was paying us less than a dollar for every 1000 coded captcha. But still there are people here that are willing to do the job than doing nothing at all. Now can we call this exploitation? and sometimes you have to stay awake for 8 hours to make 1000 captcha if youre in evening shift. But that only shows that we are hardworking people. And any work will do. As long as it's legal.

[Nicola Lane]

The relatively cheap cost of living and prices in some parts of the world are why jobs are outsourced to them to begin with!

A large company can get jobs like call centers for as little as 10% of the cost of a US or UK based center.

It would be unethical to pay someone in the UK or US $2 an hour - but if it is above the minimum wage where they are located what is the problem?

[drmani]

Originally Posted by doop

Now my question is - Is this crossing the line of ethical employment?!

Is he "exploiting" these people....?

"The bottom of the (economic) pyramid consists of the 4 billion people
living on less than $2 per day."

Bottom of the pyramid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Think they wouldn't happily work for $2 an HOUR?!

I was at a presentation in India by (and briefly spoke with) Dr.C.K.Prahalad,
author of "The Fortune at the Bottom of the Pyramid", he has some fascinating
ideas about harnessing this huge entrepreneurial pool.

All success
Dr.Mani

[Alexandre Valois]

Originally Posted by Nicola Lane

The relatively cheap cost of living and prices in some parts of the world are why jobs are outsourced to them to begin with!

A large company can get jobs like call centers for as little as 10% of the cost of a US or UK based center.

It would be unethical to pay someone in the UK or US $2 an hour - but if it is above the minimum wage where they are located what is the problem?

I see a problem when the work environment and tasks required go against the basic principles of human dignity - such as is often the case with the sweatshops that sometimes make the news, or even back in Canada where you will often find nurses forced to work double or triple shifts.

This impacts the quality of life of a person the most - not the amount of money given to them for a task, but how the said task is going to reflect on all other aspects of their lives.

[Recon]

If both parties agreed to a price beforehand or had their conditions clearly stated to each other then I think it's fair, since even if we considered it exploitation the "victim" clearly knew what he or she was getting into.

But that being said, it's still very subjective due to a few other factors such as cost of living in that particular place and so on and so forth.

Well if they're happy and it makes them a decent living, I don't see why we should really brood so much over it.

[Lance K]

In an EXTREMELY OVERSIMPLIFIED manner, this is what ethics means to me...

"Do No Harm"

The problem with your questioning of this guy's ethics is that you're considering your reality and what you would consider to be harmful to you and trying to apply that same standard to someone on the other side of the world. A person who has a different reality and a different standard as to what is considered harmful to them.

Your judgement seems to be clouded by using a fixed universal context. Which is certainly not the case.

[chewie49]

Anybody that can speak spanish fluently here?

I am hiring. I am paying 2$/hour, 2 hours per day, 5 days a week (I'm serious)

Regards,

Chewie.

[Paul Myers]

Here's another way of looking at it. Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that minimum wage in the Phillipines has the same buying power as minimum wage in the US, $2/hr there is roughly equal to $13/hr here.

Hire 2 people in the same home at those rates, full-time, and they're making the equivalent of $52,000 US, for physically safe and relatively non-stressful work from their own home.

Hire one at $3/hr, and they're making the equivalent of just about US $40,000/yr. For relatively easy and mostly unskilled work.

On the flip side, eireen just described people being paid the US equivalent of 82 CENTS/hr for second shift work, because they need the money so badly. And, if they're doing remote captchas, they're involved in something distinctly spammish/BlueFart in nature.

Which qualifies as exploitation?

Alexandre makes the best point in the thread: Look at the effect of your wages on the dignity and quality of life they provide for the work involved. That's your measuring stick.


Paul

[freetraff]

I think the solution is simple - share your knowledge about how to make more money online, so that poor outsourcing staff finds out how to earn more than $2.

They will stop doing that instantly, if they get an option.